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legalising prostitution?

celtictiger32

we all know the economy is in rag order as we speak with cutbacks here, there and everywhere happening and probably more to come.

we all know prostitution goes on, and most know its a thriving industry recession or otherwise.

i am of the opinion that this should be legalised, there obviously would have to be a regulatory system put in place amongst other things, but i believe it would go a long way to restoring our economy to brighter days. i think we as a nation need to make radical changes like these to improve the well being of our country. i travelled to germany last year and these places were all over the city centre and were a hive of activity both day and night. i imagine the tax that would come from places like these would be astronomical. and lets face it the germans are no slouches when it comes to finance.

so anyway what do people think??

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goose2005

definitely. At heart it's just an unpleasant, somewhat dangerous job - except, unlike gutting fish or wading through sewers, it pays extremely well.

beeftotheheels

celtictiger32 wrote: »

we all know the economy is in rag order as we speak with cutbacks here, there and everywhere happening and probably more to come.

we all know prostitution goes on, and most know its a thriving industry recession or otherwise.

i am of the opinion that this should be legalised, there obviously would have to be a regulatory system put in place amongst other things, but i believe it would go a long way to restoring our economy to brighter days. i think we as a nation need to make radical changes like these to improve the well being of our country. i travelled to germany last year and these places were all over the city centre and were a hive of activity both day and night. i imagine the tax that would come from places like these would be astronomical. and lets face it the germans are no slouches when it comes to finance.

so anyway what do people think??

As a starting point I have to say that I very much doubt that the tax take from prostitution would fill the hole in our government coffers, or come anywhere close. If Revenue could find them they can tax the earnings under current law. Miss Whiplash took a case in the UK and the courts ruled that despite the source of her earnings being illegal, the earnings themselves were taxable.

That said, there are arguments for legalizing it, not least to afford prostitutes the protection of the law which they can be denied by engaging in illegal activities.

But, you didn't start the thread asking for a discussion on the social benefits to legalizing prostitution, you asked about the fiscal benefits, which would be marginal.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

it's already legal...

Royal Irish

It would be good to see it legalized but I think it would be very hard to regulate, and I dont think the previous, or current government would be able to implement something like this.

I also we should have a racidal change in some laws here. Weed should be legal, prostitution should be legal, the government should take control of the vintners assocation and force them to lower the price of alcohol across the board. Put pressure on hoteliers to lower prices and put in laws to stop them price gouging so much while some event is on. Tourism in Ireland sucks and its something that I think would really help the country in the long term.

Royal Irish

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

it's already legal...

No its not.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

Prostitution itself (the exchange of sexual services for money) is not illegal in the Republic of Ireland, but most activities associated with it (such as soliciting in a public place, operating brothels and other forms of pimping) are illegal. Female ‘escort’ prostitution is widespread in Irish cities.

that took all of 4 seconds.

celtictiger32

beeftotheheels wrote: »

As a starting point I have to say that I very much doubt that the tax take from prostitution would fill the hole in our government coffers, or come anywhere close. If Revenue could find them they can tax the earnings under current law. Miss Whiplash took a case in the UK and the courts ruled that despite the source of her earnings being illegal, the earnings themselves were taxable.

That said, there are arguments for legalizing it, not least to afford prostitutes the protection of the law which they can be denied by engaging in illegal activities.

But, you didn't start the thread asking for a discussion on the social benefits to legalizing prostitution, you asked about the fiscal benefits, which would be marginal.

the social benefits are there to be discussed aswell by all means. im not saying that this one industry would solve of problems, but i do believe it would take in substantial revenue to put a dent in the current debt. i honestly dont believe the people dont know how widespread this is. when i travelled to this german city the main centre for these buildings were concentrated in one area but still had a lot more dotted around the city, now i believe this particular city was nothing in comparison to some of the others. you mentioned finding the prostitutes in your post. well as far as im aware with the german system you wouldnt have to in a sense. ive looked this up the centres they use are called 'eros' centres, from what i know they are like big apartment blocks and the rooms are rented out to the prostitutes, so maybe the owner of these centres could be taxed?.. obviously the powers that be would do a lot greater research than i ever could and possibly find the perfect taxable method.

celtictiger32

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

that took all of 4 seconds.

thats all well and good but how much revenue is taken in from prostitution in this country? what im saying is and i apologise for returning to the german example again as i see it as the perfect one. but if we had a simillar system where it was all on the table(excuse the pun) and there was designated buildings or whatever, and everything other than these places were made illegal than this industry could be regulated and made to be a profitable industry for revenue

Royal Irish

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

that took all of 4 seconds.

I didnt know it was legal in Ireland. Could you show me another, maybe even more credible link about this other than Wiki? Just to make sure.

I have been with a good few escorts, and I have met all of them advertised online, which is illegal according to your link. According to your link, am actually going to have to meet a escort just by chance, not knowing she is a escort, ride her, then her ask me for money. :rolleyes:

Pride Fighter

Prostitution is generally done by abused, trafficked people and is a horrible industry in Ireland IMO. Legalising weed would be better IMO.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Advertising in print publications is illegal, but a very developed Internet advertising medium exists

it'd help if you read the link before posting

Royal Irish

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

it'd help if you read the link before posting

I did read it, and what you quoted doesnt say anything about advertising online being legal :rolleyes:

celtictiger32

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Prostitution is generally done by abused, trafficked people and is a horrible industry in Ireland IMO. Legalising weed would be better IMO.

thats probably the exact image that would be changed imo. if everything were above board and done as mentioned above. everyone working there would probably be screened etc to ensure they were there of their own free will. i actually agree with the weed bit aswell i was going to include that into the thread but its probably been done to death. my own personal view is that the head shops that were around the city not so long ago should be all regulated and allowed to operate aswell. while i dont smoke weed or partake in any of the head shop offerings i do believe it was another good revenue source aswell as taking it all off the street corner and out of the hands of the dealers. in addition i think the pub opening hours should be extended. the amount of tourists put off coming to dublin for the weekend because our archaeic laws close evrywhere at 2.30 is unbelievable. doing this would also stop the large congregation on streets at this time and generally reducing anti social behaviour, as well as helping the public transport there would never be a problem i.e. getting a taxi plus taxi drivers would get work through the night and not just a rush hour period when the pubs close.

Royal Irish

Going from what I heard about the side effects from some of the stuff on offer from head shops, I would have disagree with your post.

The only thing regarding drugs, that I think should be legalised is good natural grown in Ireland weed. Another thing worth pointing out that alot of illegal hash in Europe comes from Afghanistan and funds the taliban, so that alone should be enough reason to legalise the growing and use of weed in Ireland (in my opinion anyway)

Prostitution is such a grey area, that alot of people dont know what is legal or illegal about it, and its probably one of the hardest things to police. If you look at a escorts website, sometimes you will see a disclaimer saying, money given to this escort is for time spent together, and anything that happens is between two consenting adults.

Seloth

Royal Irish wrote: »

No its not.

I'm sorry hah but http://chronic-dev.org/files/pwned.jpg

Royal Irish

Seloth wrote: »

I'm sorry hah but http://chronic-dev.org/files/pwned.jpg

Very intelligent and thought prevoking reply. Good on you sir.

celtictiger32

Royal Irish wrote: »

Going from what I heard about the side effects from some of the stuff on offer from head shops, I would have disagree with your post.

The only thing regarding drugs, that I think should be legalised is good natural grown in Ireland weed. Another thing worth pointing out that alot of illegal hash in Europe comes from Afghanistan and funds the taliban, so that alone should be enough reason to legalise the growing and use of weed in Ireland (in my opinion anyway)

Prostitution is such a grey area, that alot of people dont know what is legal or illegal about it, and its probably one of the hardest things to police. If you look at a escorts website, sometimes you will see a disclaimer saying, money given to this escort is for time spent together, and anything that happens is between two consenting adults.

agreed but i do think if that was regulated properly too it should be researched and tested. anyway to get back on topic also agreed it is a grey area and it is hard to police but i still feel if it were done similar to germany it would bring a lot of the underground side of it into the open and a lot easier to police as a legitimate industry

beeftotheheels

celtictiger32 wrote: »

anyway to get back on topic also agreed it is a grey area and it is hard to police but i still feel if it were done similar to germany it would bring a lot of the underground side of it into the open and a lot easier to police as a legitimate industry

There are obvious merits to legalizing it (by legalizing it I am referring to legalizing the entire industry rather than continuing the status quo of making the actual act legal while rendering every element around that act illegal). Allowing the women involved in that industry operate freely means they can claim the protection afforded to them by law. It facilitates health workers having access to them. It facilitates the collection of revenues.

But it is not a magic wand, it will not stop the exploitation of women, it will not stop the trafficking of women.

Say we legalize brothels tomorrow. The prostitutes working in those brothels get rights. They get the right to a certain minimum wage for their (unsavory) work. The black market will still exist. Organized gangs will continue to traffic women from where ever, to undercut that entitlement to minimum wage. The trafficked woman works for free to pay off "her debt", the prostitute with rights and no fear of prosecution, will put a floor on what she is prepared to work for.

The hope would be that if we legalize prostitution, if we destigmatize it, then the rational consumer of prostitution will favor the legal brothel over the illegal one.

I personally think it a risk worth taking. But it is a risk. No one wants their daughter to have the ambition of being a prostitute. While some high class escorts may "decide" on their profession, it is a "profession" which puts women at risk (and while I say women, clearly prostitutes of any gender are at risk and should be afforded similar protections).

It just strikes me that the more we push it underground, the less chance we have of protecting the vulnerable engaged in this profession. But I acknowledge that legalizing it is a risk.

celtictiger32

beeftotheheels wrote: »

There are obvious merits to legalizing it (by legalizing it I am referring to legalizing the entire industry rather than continuing the status quo of making the actual act legal while rendering every element around that act illegal). Allowing the women involved in that industry operate freely means they can claim the protection afforded to them by law. It facilitates health workers having access to them. It facilitates the collection of revenues.

But it is not a magic wand, it will not stop the exploitation of women, it will not stop the trafficking of women.

Say we legalize brothels tomorrow. The prostitutes working in those brothels get rights. They get the right to a certain minimum wage for their (unsavory) work. The black market will still exist. Organized gangs will continue to traffic women from where ever, to undercut that entitlement to minimum wage. The trafficked woman works for free to pay off "her debt", the prostitute with rights and no fear of prosecution, will put a floor on what she is prepared to work for.

The hope would be that if we legalize prostitution, if we destigmatize it, then the rational consumer of prostitution will favor the legal brothel over the illegal one.

I personally think it a risk worth taking. But it is a risk. No one wants their daughter to have the ambition of being a prostitute. While some high class escorts may "decide" on their profession, it is a "profession" which puts women at risk (and while I say women, clearly prostitutes of any gender are at risk and should be afforded similar protections).

It just strikes me that the more we push it underground, the less chance we have of protecting the vulnerable engaged in this profession. But I acknowledge that legalizing it is a risk.

the hope would be that the trafficking of women would at the very least be severely reduced and that as i said the women who work there would be from personal choice. im sure that even in germany there are a few flaws in the system but it just seems like theres a well of revenue there not being tapped into. you'll always get the holy joes who wont accept changes like these but theyre usually the same people who would close the pubs down given the chance. get it all out in the open and put it down to personal choice if people want to use the service, and hopefully force a few less cuts in the budgets for the rest

Dandelion6

I don't really agree with legalisation because the problem is it creates a two-tier system where people working in the legal industry are generally well-protected, but those outside it - and there will always be those outside it, people who have drug problems or mental health problems or immigration problems or just don't want to get caught up in the inevitable bureaucracy - continue to face the same risks that exist when it's criminalised. These are usually the most vulnerable ones and legalisation does very little for them.

I think a better answer is decriminalisation, where nobody will face charges for consensual prostitution, those who have problems can come forward without fear of arrest and those who are doing ok can just get on with it.

There is a lot of talk these days about the Nordic model (where the buyers are criminalised and the sellers aren't). Very little of what we hear about this model reflects the views of those working in the sex industry, which from what I can tell are almost uniformly negative. There seems to be very little hard evidence backing up the claims that it has reduced prostitution, and a lot of the women involved in the industry saying it has only increased their risks.

caseyann

Articles speak louder than words in this case.
So i just say no and anyone involved in buying it or controling it should be charged.
We could follow sweden and make it illegal and sooner the better.
The logic of making it legal is a bad idea.It wont stop illegal trafficking of women either.

Delegates attending the first day of the annual conference of the Irish Medical Organisation in Killarney, Co Kerry, said this would be an important step in tackling the trafficking of illegal immigrants for the sex trade.

Public health specialist Dr Fenton Howell said Ruhama, the Dublin based group that works with women involved in prostitution, had called earlier this year for Ireland to adopt the Swedish model whereby men are prosecuted for buying sex and he agreed with their stance.

“In Sweden where that has happened for the last 10 years it’s reduced the level of prostitution and the illegal importation of women,” he said. Dr Howell said “something like 90 per cent of the indoor sex trade is being done by illegal immigrants” and it was “literally slave trade again” and it was very lucrative for those running it.
One of the deterrents is if you can actually charge the men . . . if they know they’re going to be charged then it’s a deterrent right across the board.”
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0429/1224295674439.html

And weed out the likes of these horrible people and make so they can never make money or terrorize women or anyone else again.
A WOMAN has been remanded in custody after she was charged yesterday with running a brothel.

Charity Ajayioba (35), a failed asylum seeker from Nigeria, who is of no fixed abode, appeared at Dublin District Court yesterday charged under section 11 of the Criminal Law Sexual Offences Act for organising, directing and running a brothel, at Rathbraughan Park, Sligo, on March 22nd, 2007.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0429/1224295673574.html

Mr McKenzie made an application for legal aid to be granted to his client. He informed the judge that she had a deportation order pending against her and that she was a failed asylum seeker.

She was one of 40 people, including a garda stationed in the west of Ireland, arrested.
Over 120 people were interviewed as part of the operation and 11 victims were identified and rescued.

The Garda is suspected of having provided falsified documentation which enabled a woman to remain illegally in the country.

The court heard this morning that substantial amounts of money had passed through the 35-year-old woman's bank account, which she no longer had access to.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0428/brothel.html

Dandelion6

caseyann wrote: »

The logic of making it legal is a bad idea.It wont stop illegal trafficking of women either.

Neither will making it illegal. There is trafficking of women (and men) in many countries where it is illegal. Including Sweden.

Ruhama, the Dublin based group that works with women involved in prostitution

The founders and trustees of which are two of the orders who ran the Magdalene Laundries. Why would anyone trust them to work with vulnerable women? Why is the state (that is, you and me) giving them money to do so?

“In Sweden where that has happened for the last 10 years it’s reduced the level of prostitution and the illegal importation of women,” he said.

Again, no evidence of this. There's evidence only that it's reduced the level of street prostitution but that's only a tiny amount of the sex trade anyway.

Dr Howell said “something like 90 per cent of the indoor sex trade is being done by illegal immigrants”

No evidence of this either. Pure conjecture.

Dandelion6

Irish sex workers respond to the IMO motion

RandolphEsq

On the issue of escorts being legal, it is a grey area. What you are paying for is the time with the girl. What happens during that time apparently just 'happens' and obviously it is not illegal to have sex so it just 'happens' that you have sex with her during the time period for which you paid to be in her company.

jakdelad

ah yes that dreaded grey area again

the govt been screwing us for years and years
and with no protection [for us]

celtictiger32

imo the illegal trafficking of women for the sex trade will probably always happen, if you push this trade underground itll probably just make the situation worse and easier to have these 'illegals' put to work so to speak. i just think that if it were structured and regulated that the demand -for want of a better word- for illegal trafficking would decrease, the women working in the industry would get proper screening and health checks, and the tax revenue would put a hole in the country's debt and go towards getting this country back on its feet

beeftotheheels

celtictiger32 wrote: »

imo the illegal trafficking of women for the sex trade will probably always happen, if you push this trade underground itll probably just make the situation worse and easier to have these 'illegals' put to work so to speak. i just think that if it were structured and regulated that the demand -for want of a better word- for illegal trafficking would decrease, the women working in the industry would get proper screening and health checks, and the tax revenue would put a hole in the country's debt and go towards getting this country back on its feet

I think this is problematic to prove even though it certainly appeals to liberal thinking and logic.

In relation to the trafficking of women I don't think it will have much of an impact. This is largely done by international criminal organizations.

Lets say ten Irish girls set up a brothel together. They charge each punter €40, and after paying rent, security etc they end up with €25 per hour. They may well be better off in terms of security, comfort etc with the key difference being that they run the brothel.

It is probably more likely that there will be a brothel keeper (aka pimp) who picks up the costs of running the brothel and who takes a cut of earnings, but if it is legal, free market economics kicks in, and the prostitutes can form a union or do whatever to put a floor on what they are paid.

The problem here is that many prostitutes have addictions, they won't necessarily behave rationally and may undercut each other trying to fund their addictions. Minimum wage won't help if the prostitute is self employed and the issue is the amount of expenses that the brothel keeper is charging.

The trafficked worker works for free, so no disincentive to traffickers there at all.

Why am I in favor of legalizing and regulating it? The status quo is not working. Prostitution has existed since the dawn of time, rendering it illegal has not worked.

Legalizing it does allow for things which don't currently exist. It allows women with a few savings set up a legitimate business, hire security etc. Any prostitutes working in a legal brothel have to be safer than those plying their trade on the streets. It may allow legitimate business people operate brothels, or indeed do-gooder wet liberals operate brothels which improve working conditions for the girls.

But there is a school of thought that part of what drives some men to use prostitutes is the illicit nature of it all (Hugh Grant anyone?). So demand for illegal street hookers will remain.

Trafficking will remain.

I don't see many upsides to the status quo, I don't think making it legal will cause anyone to change their opinion that it is fundamentally a bad thing.

I see (albeit limited) upsides to legalizing it in terms of creating opportunities for some women to work in safer environments, in terms of being able to gather data on the industry, in terms of giving the workers the rights and protections under the law.

I see limited downside to making it legal. If we see no benefits after 5 years we can always render it illegal again. I doubt any young girl will have said in the interim "Oh look, prostitution is now legal so I no longer want to be an air stewardess, I now want to be a prostitute". I doubt any otherwise happily married man is going to say "Oh look, prostitution is now legal so I think I'll have sex with a prostitute". The social stigma attached to the profession will remain.

I just don't think it is a magic wand, by definition we are dealing with some of the most vulnerable members of society, by legalizing it we can hope to help a few more, but I wouldn't hold out much hope that it will help all that many.

celtictiger32

The problem here is that many prostitutes have addictions, they won't necessarily behave rationally and may undercut each other trying to fund their addictions.

along with regulation, should come health checks and tests to curb addictions

Why am I in favor of legalizing and regulating it? The status quo is not working. Prostitution has existed since the dawn of time, rendering it illegal has not worked.

'the oldest profession in the world' as its known will probably always be around so why not change it, try to clean it up and gain financial benefits for the country.

But there is a school of thought that part of what drives some men to use prostitutes is the illicit nature of it all (Hugh Grant anyone?). So demand for illegal street hookers will remain.

i disagree, if people had the choice to go to a lets say safe, regulated, screened enviroment i think that would appeal to a lot more people, plus maybe more stringent laws for the ones that dont conform and stay on the streets.

Trafficking will remain.

as i said i think trafficking will always be there whether it be for the sex industry or otherwise but i do think it would be substantially reduced which has to be a good thing.

I don't see many upsides to the status quo, I don't think making it legal will cause anyone to change their opinion that it is fundamentally a bad thing.
The social stigma attached to the profession will remain.

yes there is a social stigma but would this not phase out over time if it were brought above ground. remeber there was a social stigma attached to being gay once upon a time in this country amongst other things. i remember sitting at a beer garden in germany there was one of these 'eros' centres a few doors up. and imo demand or social stigma wouldnt be a problem the amount of businessmen etc 'dropping in' on the way home from work was astounding.

jumpin jaysus

i think it should be legalised. girls are happier working in a safer enviroment. men who go are happier because of same. and country is better off with another source of income. cant see a downside tbh

celtictiger32

jumpin jaysus wrote: »

i think it should be legalised. girls are happier working in a safer enviroment. men who go are happier because of same. and country is better off with another source of income. cant see a downside tbh

most of the downsides are already there and only stand to be improved with legalisation. i know most see it as a sleazy underground industry and tbh theres not a lot there toargue against that but if done right i do think as i said it would be a booming industry that will help the country with much needed revenue. and extra tourists id imagine aswell