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Child Item

Which affordable transport projects should go ahead in 2011-2014?

dynamick

With Leo Varadkar indicating that all PPP projects will be cancelled, what does that leave for transport capital spending in 2011-2014? The transport minister's briefing states that the capital allowance is approx 4.8bn for the period but that 1.7 is already committed. Another 1bn is required for road maintenance & 400mil for railway safety.

That leaves 1.7bn for additional transport projects in the coming 4 years.

If transport spending continues as it has in the past with 2:1 ratio for roads then I'd guess that 1.1bn will go on road improvements like rural bypasses leaving 600m for rail projects like resignalling, electrification & track improvements to remove speed restrictions.

Not very inspiring.

On the plus side, RTPI and integrated ticketing are nearly live, KRP and city centre DART resignalling must be reaching completion.

Cheap stuff they could do would be
* extend the cycle hire scheme in Dublin and other cities
* improved cycle lanes
* cycle greenways
* measures to promote walking
* outsource city bus services outside Dublin.
* promote car clubs through designated public and private parking
* keep the cycle to work scheme going
* raw rtpi data for rail and bus made publicly accessible so that the independent analysis of punctuality and reliability can be carried out.
* smart cards for social welfare passes to reduce fraudulent use

any other ideas?

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superelliptic

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

I'm stealing that.

As am I....

antoobrien

DoesNotCompute wrote: »

1. Dublin Metro
2. Integrate the Irish Rail Smart Card with Dublin Bus and Luas Ones
3. Dart Underground
4. Extend Dart Underground/Dublin Metro/whateva out to Maynooth

The one in bold is due to be rolled out later this year, not that I believe them but that's what they're telling the people that go out to businesses and have to answer questions.

As for the other 3, prioritise DU above all else - to put in MN first would be like buling motorwways to Dublin with no M50 there to distribute traffic a little.

M6 GCOB, M17/18 & M20 are all required to provide decent transport infrastructure to the West, the M17/18 especially due to the amount of money already spent on it.

Chris_5339762

Hopefully Dunkettle will be put reasonably close to the top of the priority list.

ilovegermany

Tech3 wrote: »

Funding approved this year:

N22 Tralee Bypass
N5 Longford Bypass
N3 Belturbet Bypass

N2 Slane Bypass should get built sometime over the next few years possibly next year depending on tender costs.

Assuming that even the EIB partially approved funding projects are dead for the moment due to our self-inflicted economic disaster how about focusing on key bypasses on existing National Primary Routes that would further imporve traffic times on key routes and add directly to benefits of existing motorway network. These are congestion killers that would all have real positive economic impacts and would be a good start following on from Newlands Cross, N11 gap etc:

1. Adare Bypass (including upgrading of a couple of km of the Croom Bypass to facilitate building of M20 later)
2. Ballybofey/Stranolar Bypass - part of the "Atlantic Corridor" and choked with traffic
3. Cork Southern Ring Road interchanges - Wilton roundabout is like "Russian roulete" - but its thread says there is problems with the contracts
4. Dunkettle Interchange - but probably take at least another 2 or 3 years to get planning consent
5. Thurles bypass - its cruel trying to get from Nenagh side to the M8
6. Extra lane on Naas bypass and improving junctions.
7. Any improvement scheme on the road between Waterford to Limerick (N24??) - especially Tipp town bypass

NITransport

Has there been any further update on whether Varadkar will backtrack on the previous governments financial support to the A5 improvements?

dynamick

Ministerial briefing notes

B. A5 PROJECT (NORTH WEST GATEWAY TO AUGHNACLOY)
In the context of the St. Andrew‘s Agreement the Government made a commitment to provide
£400/€5S0 million to a roads investment package for Northern Ireland which includes the
upgrading of the A5 road from Aughnacloy to Derry/Letterkenny to dual-carriageway standard.
Work commenced in 2007 and to date all project milestones have been met on schedule. The A5
project milestone and payment schedule envisages construction starting in 2012 and finishing in
2015.
An initial payment of €9 million from the Irish Government’s contribution was made in 2009
following selection of the Preferred Route for the road. The next payment of E11 sterling was
triggered by the third project milestone — Publication of Draft Orders and Environmental
Statement- achieved in November 2010. The payment schedule envisages the payment being
made in July 2011 subject to the agreed procedures governing the payment. As part of this
procedure an agreed progress report on the project prepared by the Cross Border Steering
Group was reviewed by the NSMC Transport Sector at its meeting on 9th February 2011. The next step will be approval of the payment by the NSMC Plenary meeting scheduled for June
2011.
The Department's Four Year Plan provides for a scheduled drawdown in 2012 on reaching the
fourth project milestone. No specific provision has been made in this Department's allocations
for scheduled drawdowns for subsequent years to 2016. The Department of Finance has
indicated that it is envisaged that payments will be met from within the overall Government
capital envelope. The anticipated spend profile for 2013 and 2014 is Stg£10 million and Stg£130
million respectively. Further payments of Stg£120 million and £118 million are anticipated in
2015 and 2016.

NITransport

Cheer dynamick, I'm sure by July we'll see if FG supports this scheme if the money is available. But since it's such small amounts (on a national scale) we won't really know if they're financially committed until 2013. But hopefully we'll have a brighter economic outlook by that point, plus the DRDNI will have already started construction that should the money be unavailable they'll try and push ahead with it at the detriment to other improvements in NI.

DWCommuter

OMG! This project appears as if it was committed to by a southern Government who thought we could channel money northwards without any consequence. However the consequence has arrived and its alive and well. It was a nice thought to think we could reverse decades of poor relation status with our northern neighbours, but it won't be happening. This road may happen, but I doubt too much southern money will be involved.

dynamick

From an electoral point of view it mostly benefits Donegal. Is Donegal an important constituency for the government? They elected no labour TDs and 2 shinners, 1FF, 1IND, 2FG.

Motorway may be overkill in any case. Would a few bypasses be enough for the traffic volume? DRD still says it is going ahead but will soak up most of their capital transport budget for several years. http://applications.drdni.gov.uk/publications/document.asp?docid=20567

oharach

NITransport wrote: »

the DRDNI will have already started construction that should the money be unavailable they'll try and push ahead with it at the detriment to other improvements in NI.

There is next to no scope for the DRDNI pushing ahead with the A5 DC at the expense of other projects – because they've already sacrificed almost every other project already.

I see you live in Derry, and I can understand why you would be supportive, but it's almost the only NI roads project that will go ahead for about 3-5 years, and I don't think that can be justified.

If you take out southern money, there are plenty of other projects that are better value for money for the NI taxpayer than sections of the A5. Dualling south of Omagh should be put on ice, with money redirected to the A6 dualling, M2/3 to A12 flyovers at York Street and track work on the Dublin line between Lurgan and Knockmore.

Sponge Bob

Southern money is ringfenced for the A5 and A8 ( larne road) only. If one must cutback then Derry Omagh would be the logical remaining project . If one must cut back further then the Strabane- Omagh stretch comes to mind. Belfast got lots of mega projects over the years, the freeflow westlink was only the most recent.

The A5 needs a lot of work.

NITransport

I do come from Derry, but thankfully in my case I'm not blinded by self interests... it was a shame some TDs and MPs in the past weren't like wise.

I think the fact that FG doesn't have a strong hold in the Donegal is all the more reason to support this. It would show maturity and a new kind of politics and could lead them to win votes. Naturally Sinn Fein would claim their rallying got it done.

I do think the NW seriously requires infrastructure now that every other city and region on the Island infinitely better infrastructure and if we continue to lag behind, it will only further deteriorate the economy of the region.

The order I would do NW infrastructure improvements would be:
1. Derry - Strabane A5 Section simultaneously with Derry - Coleraine Track improvements. ( I would also have funded a new railway station at the end of the peace bridge to encourage rail travel coupled with a morning express service.)
2. Strabane to Omagh & Castledawson to M22 simultaneously.
When funds were available...
3. Derry to Dungiven & Omagh to Auchnacloy.

I do know this is a land of endless money, but they could be done in instalments over the next decade plus... we're bound to have recovered by then! Nothing wrong with thinking optimistically...

Lest we forget Belfast should still be getting E-Way and W-Way and Larne the dual - carriageway.

I just look forward to the future when we can stop worrying about road infrastructure as we'll have good infrastructure and perhaps start improving speeds on intercity rail routes...

dynamick

Is Derry-Belfast not more important than Derry-Aughnacloy? Last time I drove Dublin-Derry I went via Belfast and it was very quick. The Derry-Belfast train is unbelievably slow.

NITransport

It probably is, but I think improving both connections is vital and that's why I would want the Belfast Rail line improvements to go ahead a long with the first phase of A5 improvements... don't want to put all your eggs in one proverbial basket.

The Derry - Belfast line is in a worse condition than the A6 after all. And the worst bit of the A6 is between Toome and the M22/2 so this part should be improved first when when A6 works go ahead.

Conor Murphy has hinted here that he would consider any suggestion.

Anyone that has used Waterside Station will know it's a pain to get too, and looks like a 70's public toilet. Not a real good way to entice would be travellers.

I would like to see something along the lines (no pun intended) of Umea East Station Sweden, of course on a smaller scale.

superelliptic

antoobrien wrote: »

The one in bold is due to be rolled out later this year, not that I believe them but that's what they're telling the people that go out to businesses and have to answer questions.

As for the other 3, prioritise DU above all else - to put in MN first would be like buling motorwways to Dublin with no M50 there to distribute traffic a little.

M6 GCOB, M17/18 & M20 are all required to provide decent transport infrastructure to the West, the M17/18 especially due to the amount of money already spent on it.

Just had a look at that integrate ticketing system. Its a pritty simple system to impliment, with the most hassle being the instalation of the card readers themselves, but the billing system is easy to come up with. I think that if the pilot is successfull, that this should be rolled out nationwide, to every train and bus service in the country, so everyone can buy one card, and use it for everything: local bus services in any town/city, intercity rail, dart, luas, the lot.

This could make commuters quite happy if its done well. (/scepticism

)

DU being done first before MN would also make more sense. I hope Leo sees past short term politics and puts that project as his no. 1.

superelliptic

dynamick wrote: »

From an electoral point of view it mostly benefits Donegal. Is Donegal an important constituency for the government? They elected no labour TDs and 2 shinners, 1FF, 1IND, 2FG.

Motorway may be overkill in any case. Would a few bypasses be enough for the traffic volume? DRD still says it is going ahead but will soak up most of their capital transport budget for several years. http://applications.drdni.gov.uk/publications/document.asp?docid=20567

Donegal needs better roads rapidly - Im not exaggerating. Have you ever driven up there? Its like travelling back in time :eek:

saywhatyousee

Not one person mentioned the N4 between colloney-castelbaldwin.Its a national disgrace i have driven on better R roads.It carry's 27,500 cars a day so its no white elephant.Its the only section of the whole N4 to never get an upgrade

dynamick

superelliptic wrote: »

Donegal needs better roads rapidly - Im not exaggerating. Have you ever driven up there? Its like travelling back in time :eek:

Donegal also needs better drivers

mgmt

saywhatyousee wrote: »

Not one person mentioned the N4 between colloney-castelbaldwin.Its a national disgrace i have driven on better R roads.It carry's 27,500 cars a day so its no white elephant.Its the only section of the whole N4 to never get an upgrade

No it does not. That section carries about 6,000.

http://www.nra.ie/Publications/DownloadableDocumentation/Transportation/file,3675,en.pdf

Stinicker

dynamick wrote: »

Donegal also needs better drivers

Its part of a culture thing up there, on of their main "Sports" is Rallying and half the general population between 17 to 30 thinks they are driving in the WRC with their Scooby Soobies or whatever nick name they have on their Subaru rust bucket.

saywhatyousee

mgmt wrote: »

No it does not. That section carries about 6,000.

http://www.nra.ie/Publications/DownloadableDocumentation/Transportation/file,3675,en.pdf

The Irsh independant did and article about it 2-3 months back that the figure they gave ill try to fetch a link

antoobrien

mgmt wrote: »

No it does not. That section carries about 6,000.

http://www.nra.ie/Publications/DownloadableDocumentation/Transportation/file,3675,en.pdf

Those are 2004 estimates and there are no (published) traffic counter figures for Co Sligo. While I find it hard to believe the figure of 27k vehicles, Dromod has an aadt of 7k, I'd imagine that one of the main regional roads, which is likely one of the busiest of the biggest town in the area would be a tad more busy than this. Besides as has been pointed out in other threads these routes are important for the sustainability of industry and tourism in the area.

But if there is an argument for this one then Adare (aadt > 15k) & Claregalway (aadt > 21k) are both way more important as they are major bottlenecks into/out of the two major urban areas on the west coast.

I read somewhere that the land (no link, sorry) has already been bought for the N17/18 project at a cost of about 150m. If this is true, it makes it a no brainer to spend the extra couple of hundred million to build it or it's a bigger waste than the consulting money spent on the bertie bowl.

dynamick

Why is it a good idea to build a motorway from Athenry to Tuam?

antoobrien

dynamick wrote: »

Why is it a good idea to build a motorway from Athenry to Tuam?

Don't forget Gort to Athenry - (not proposed as motorway)
1) 21k vehicles through Claregalway is motorway traffic levels
2) Not having to go through Claregalway to get to most of north east Galway
3) Getting rid of the rat runs around Claregalway that go down narrow country lanes, which are barely suited to carrying local traffic. The extent of the use of these rat runs was shown up with the road conditions for the past two winters, where people that usually don't go near Claregalway had to, causing even longer delays than normal on top of the weather realted ones.
4) The unreal amount of direct & local access (i.e. homes & business opening onto) on the existing N17 and N18 making it hard to upgrade
5) The junction at Lydons of Knockdoe - well known accident area
6) The southbound section is needed for regional access
7) Pre N18 gort bypass the south of Gort had an AADT of 10,146 vehicles (in 2004 that was 9,408 an increase of 8% to 2010 when the N18 opened north of gort removing 80% of the traffic from the village). By extrapolation using the figures in the doc linked earlier the roads north of this are also 8% busier, probably more due to the building in Clarinbridge/Kilcolgan (11k in 2004) and Oranmore (14k in 2004).

finally

Depending on how you count it we've already spent between 25% & 33% of the project cost in getting to the point where we're ready to put shovels in the ground. How many other projects are at this stage?

dynamick

Why are so many people on this road? There are no towns around there. Is it tens of thousands of one off houses lived in by people working in Galway?

MadsL

Is it tens of thousands of one off houses lived in by people working in Galway?

Nail. Head.

antoobrien

dynamick wrote: »

Why are so many people on this road? There are no towns around there. Is it tens of thousands of one off houses lived in by people working in Galway?

Gort, Ardrahan, Kilcolgan, Clarinbridge, Oranmore, Claregalway & Tuam are all on the N17/18 with more like Ballindereen & Corofin not far off it. All these towns/villages will be bypassed. The only single strech of road built that would bypass as many towns would be N4 Kinnegad to Kilbeggan. There's also access to 4 other towns/villages off N63 (connects to n17).

How are there so many cars - the answer can be found by looking at the answers to these questions:
Where are the vast majority of the jobs? Galway City
Is there decent PT access? Don't make me laugh. They had a chance with WRC but blew it spectacularly. Hence everyone using cars.

[Deleted User]

antoobrien wrote: »

Gort, Ardrahan, Kilcolgan, Clarinbridge, Oranmore, Claregalway & Tuam are all on the N17/18 with more like Ballindereen & Corofin not far off it. All these towns/villages will be bypassed. The only single strech of road built that would bypass as many towns would be N4 Kinnegad to Kilbeggan. There's also access to 4 other towns/villages off N63 (connects to n17).

How are there so many cars - the answer can be found by looking at the answers to these questions:
Where are the vast majority of the jobs? Galway City
Is there decent PT access? Don't make me laugh. They had a chance with WRC but blew it spectacularly. Hence everyone using cars.

How many of those using cars live in one-off housing?

Do you think we should provide Public transport to one-off house?

Cool Mo D

If we want actually affordable projects, here are a few new ones for Dublin. Much of these apply to other cities.

Some are even free!

To improve traffic flow:
- Enforce taxi ranks, and fine taxis who wait with their arse in the road, or outside the rank. Where posssible, move tax ranks off main thorugh streets where road space is tight: e.g. dawson street rank to molesworth street,.
- Move some of the bus stops. Especially the services that require long set downs. Aircoach, and city tour buses should have their own stops, not shared with any buses. If there are several bus stops along a street, frequent services should be spread out among them.
- Bus bays should be redesigned to comfortably fit a bus, most are not used properly now because they are too small.
- Yellow box cameras set up at key city centre junctions to fine drivers blocking traffic.
- Tow-away zones operated on clearways in rush hour.
- Make private coaches only set down at stops, not wherever they feel like.

Bus services:
- Widen pinch points on existing QBCs. For example, the Malahide road and Swords road QBCs only have a few gaps, which would need eating into some gardens, but still should be done.
- Mini bus stations built at key interchanges, such as Connolly station, Dun Laoighaire, Blanchardstown, Tallaght, and UCD, with real time passenger info, shelter, ticket machines, and maybe a coffee shop. See bristol bus station for an example. They would be a one stop shop for buses to town, feeder buses to DART and Luas, and local buses.
- Flat fares and integrated ticketing with all other public transport.
- After RTPI is brought in, identify the slowest points on the network, and come up with plans for improving them, one by one.

Rail:
- Terminating platform at Malahide.

Transportuser09

Cool Mo D wrote: »

- Make private coaches only set down at stops, not wherever they feel like.

Legally speaking this is already the case for licensed services, though maybe it needs to be enforced a bit better.