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Irish corporate tax rate in huge trouble

pragmatic1

I know this is after hours but this is really serious news. Our corporate tax rate is in huge danger. The German and French finance ministers want this country in poverty. If FG dont grow a pair and stand up to these pricks we're basically finished as a country. http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0409/economy.html

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pragmatic1

the groutch wrote: »

they're not bailing out Ireland, they're bailing out themselves (France & Germany), because they were stupid enough to keep giving the cheap money to the Irish banks, and are just as culpable as an Irish bank.
they need reminding of that in any negotiations, and if they won't play ball, default and leave the eurozone

Do you think Michael Noonan will remind them of this and stand firm. We'd have been better off with Pearse Doherty.

the groutch

they're not bailing out Ireland, they're bailing out themselves (France & Germany), because they were stupid enough to keep giving the cheap money to the Irish banks, and are just as culpable as an Irish bank.
they need reminding of that in any negotiations, and if they won't play ball, default and leave the eurozone

My name is URL

Dionysus wrote: »

And will you say that to the next EU handout Irish politicians expect from the same country EU?

Irish people can't have it both ways, although some of them are clearly trying to.

How about this for a compromise: the Irish government charges whatever corporate tax rate it wants and in exchange it gets no more subsidies/handouts from the EU/ high tax economies like Germany?

Do you think it would be acceptable for the EU to threaten us with the cessation of subsidies unless we raise our CT rate to the level they demand? Where does it end?

I get what you are saying but you're building a straw-man. There is no such threat (yet at least). Maybe subsidy amounts could be based on things like the CT rate of individual countries instead? Kinda like a means test..

pragmatic1

Dionysus wrote: »

And will you say that to the next EU handout Irish politicians expect from the same country EU?

Irish people can't have it both ways, although some of them are clearly trying to.

How about this for a compromise: the Irish government charges whatever corporate tax rate it wants and in exchange it gets no more subsidies/handouts from the EU/ high tax economies like Germany?

Then the French and Germans should do the same with their own subsidies.

nizo888

Any increase of the corporation tax will be indeed be bad news for those working in multinationals. They will not invest further in Ireland. That is a fact. Even the ones that are here like Intel are making billions of euros of profit each year and they are still making hundreds of people redundant every year.

With all of the problems facing the country any raising of the corporation tax would be essentially be the final nail in the coffin. For those lucky enough to work in the multinationals at least you will be a sizable redundancy package. Take my advice and leave this godforesaken country and set up somewhere else.

That is my plan. I'm out of here. I'm not paying the bondholders. No sirree!

cosanostra

Dionysus wrote: »

And will you say that to the next EU handout Irish politicians expect from the same country EU?

Irish people can't have it both ways, although some of them are clearly trying to.

How about this for a compromise: the Irish government charges whatever corporate tax rate it wants and in exchange it gets no more subsidies/handouts from the EU/ high tax economies like Germany?

But the "handout" is not for the irish people its for german french and british banks

Dionysus

twinytwo wrote: »

At the end of the day they only want to raise our corporation tax because it benefits their own countries. All i can say it a **** you germany

And will you say that to the next EU handout Irish politicians expect from the same country EU?

Irish people can't have it both ways, although some of them are clearly trying to.

How about this for a compromise: the Irish government charges whatever corporate tax rate it wants and in exchange it gets no more subsidies/handouts from the EU/ high tax economies like Germany?

twinytwo

At the end of the day they only want to raise our corporation tax because it benefits their own countries. All i can say it a **** you germany

pragmatic1

Dionysus wrote: »

Unlike most people here, it appears, I look forward to tax harmonisation across the EU if it will ensure an equality of higher social services and social justice across the EU.

It's not at all popular to say this here but I have said it time and time again: it's deeply hypocritical of the Irish people to expect to get one over other EU countries by keeping a lower corporation tax rate to attract foreign companies, while then turning around and expecting the same EU countries to subsidise Ireland with what is in effect the [higher] taxes from their citizens. Those EU countries, according to the raison d'être of the lower Irish tax rate, lose taxes because multipnationals locate here rather than in France, for instance.

The Irish hypocrisy deepens. Those countries have higher taxes to pay for higher social services in their country. Our lower corporation (and income) taxes not only rob jobs for Ireland which may have had no choice but to locate in the standard high tax EU country, but this lower tax also ensure we have considerably inferior social services and less social justice in our state, Ireland. And what do our political representatives do to make up the shortfall? They go with the begging bowl and the béal bocht to Brussels asking for handouts because they are too afraid to confront the Irish electorate with this reality: if we want higher social services we have to pay higher taxes. Where is our pride? The hypocrisy. All our representatives who defend this double standard are cowards and beggars appealing to the most mé féiner mentality of the Irish population, that small tenant farmer post-Famine mentality which obdurately refuses to pay higher taxes for the social services which we depend on EU handouts to maintain.

As an Irishman, I am willing to pay higher taxes for better social services and for more social justice in Ireland. For the reasons above, our current stance on the low corporation tax rate is so obviously hyprocritical and a source of shame.

It's long past the time that Irish people approached this issue honestly. This is not Ireland's finest hour. Our representatives' hypocrisy is doing awful (irreparable?) damage to Ireland's reputation in the more socially just EU societies which I admire.

PS: Without doubt, Ireland's representatives should be telling the French and Germans that we are not paying for their bondholders' losses in Irish banks. That's where the French and Germans are patently playing national politics.

Those countries give tax incentives so the real rate of their corporate tax is much much lower. Therefore to suggest that we're the ones being hypocritical is a bit like the pot calling the kettle black.

This is especially vulgar considering the size of Ireland and how much we depend on foreign investment.

dj jarvis

Dionysus wrote: »

Unlike most people here, it appears, I look forward to tax harmonisation across the EU if it will ensure an equality of higher social services and social justice across the EU.

It's not at all popular to say this here but I have said it time and time again: it's deeply hypocritical of the Irish people to expect to get one over other EU countries by keeping a lower corporation tax rate to attract foreign companies, while then turning around and expecting the same EU countries to subsidise Ireland with what is in effect the [higher] taxes from their citizens. Those EU countries, according to the raison d'être of the lower Irish tax rate, lose taxes because multipnationals locate here rather than in France, for instance.

The Irish hypocrisy deepens. Those countries have higher taxes to pay for higher social services in their country. Our lower corporation (and income) taxes not only rob jobs for Ireland which may have had no choice but to locate in the standard high tax EU country, but this lower tax also ensure we have considerably inferior social services and less social justice in our state, Ireland. And what do our political representatives do to make up the shortfall? They go with the begging bowl and the béal bocht to Brussels asking for handouts because they are too afraid to confront the Irish electorate with this reality: if we want higher social services we have to pay higher taxes. Where is our pride? The hypocrisy. All our representatives who defend this double standard are cowards and beggars appealing to the most mé féiner mentality of the Irish population, that small tenant farmer post-Famine mentality which obdurately refuses to pay higher taxes for the social services which we depend on EU handouts to maintain.

As an Irishman, I am willing to pay higher taxes for better social services and for more social justice in Ireland. For the reasons above, our current stance on the low corporation tax rate is so obviously hyprocritical and a source of shame.

It's long past the time that Irish people approached this issue honestly. This is not Ireland's finest hour. Our representatives' hypocrisy is doing awful (irreparable?) damage to Ireland's reputation in the more socially just EU societies which I admire.

PS: Without doubt, Ireland's representatives should be telling the French and Germans that we are not paying for their bondholders' losses in Irish banks. That's where the French and Germans are patently playing national politics.

are you out of your mind ?
EVERY country uses its strengths to it own advantage , FFS !!!
so using your logic if we get a " level playing field " are the Germans and the french going to ship over heavy industry 2 fill the vacuum that is ireland with no heavy industry ?? lets say the Germans are going to give us OPEL ?? and the french ? how about the arms industry ,
the tax rate is one of the best things we have to attract DFI

so what happened to the legal " guarantee " we were sold ??
aint worth the paper it was forged on

2 say they have had a head start in the building of the economy would be a ****ing massive understatement :eek:
with that attitude we would still be ****ing using donkeys to get 2 the mart

Europe OFFERED us cohesion and structural funds 2 speed up development
they NEVER said that they were going to throw it back in our face every time they wanted something done that was detrimental to ireland
i think the phrase is Indian givers

i think that people forget we have said NO twice 2 Europe and they just ****ing ignored us and leaned on our elected gob****es ,

we own them **** all - lets stand up to them and see have they got the courage of their convictions and i hop 2 **** we do

cosanostra

Daegerty wrote: »

Don't want them and certainly at the cost our inefficient public service will charge for them

We're taxed to the hilt already. The dole is too much, too much is wasted on trying to rehabilitate scumbags who are beyond all reasonable hope. They should privatise things like RTE and the water supply and lay off half the bloody social workers and psychiatrists who just sit there making work for each other. In the good old days a misbehaved child would be given a slap and told to cop on, now he has every syndrome under the sun and needs 24 hour care in a specially built institution

I agree with this i know of kids that were told they needed a special needs assistant cause they were dyslexic and they could function very well but when they were put into this catogory it ruined them and they ended up just pure lazy! also red tape is killing business here its way ott

dj jarvis

HellFireClub wrote: »

A 1% reduction on the bailout is like offering a Johnson & Johnson plaster to a lad who just got blasted in the face with a shotgun, it's useless...

it nearly 800 million in savings a year on what we " borrowed "

a lot of doctors nurses cops bla bla bla can be paid with that cash

and lets face it , even if it only save us a tenner we should peruse it all the friggin way

screw our European " brothers " - if this is how our family acts i want a ****ing divorce , out of EMF - Punt back - devalue - default , **** em all

if a law was passed 2 changed the constitution to forbid a budget deficit we could also **** the bond market - ONLY EVER spend what we have
then at least we would be masters of our own destiny

not the poor gombean of Europe

sick of this ****

Daegerty

Dionysus wrote: »

if we want higher social services we have to pay higher taxes.

Don't want them and certainly at the cost our inefficient public service will charge for them

We're taxed to the hilt already. The dole is too much, too much is wasted on trying to rehabilitate scumbags who are beyond all reasonable hope. They should privatise things like RTE and the water supply and lay off half the bloody social workers and psychiatrists who just sit there making work for each other. In the good old days a misbehaved child would be given a slap and told to cop on, now he has every syndrome under the sun and needs 24 hour care in a specially built institution

Birdnuts

We're a nation of givers in this country - we prop up failed developer banks, give away our natural resources, payoff failed bankers/politicians etc. and now this:(

Dionysus

Unlike most people here, it appears, I look forward to tax harmonisation across the EU if it will ensure an equality of higher social services and social justice across the EU.

It's not at all popular to say this here but I have said it time and time again: it's deeply hypocritical of the Irish people to expect to get one over other EU countries by keeping a lower corporation tax rate to attract foreign companies, while then turning around and expecting the same EU countries to subsidise Ireland with what is in effect the [higher] taxes from their citizens. Those EU countries, according to the raison d'être of the lower Irish tax rate, lose taxes because multipnationals locate here rather than in France, for instance.

The Irish hypocrisy deepens. Those countries have higher taxes to pay for higher social services in their country. Our lower corporation (and income) taxes not only rob jobs for Ireland which may have had no choice but to locate in the standard high tax EU country, but this lower tax also ensure we have considerably inferior social services and less social justice in our state, Ireland. And what do our political representatives do to make up the shortfall? They go with the begging bowl and the béal bocht to Brussels asking for handouts because they are too afraid to confront the Irish electorate with this reality: if we want higher social services we have to pay higher taxes. Where is our pride? The hypocrisy. All our representatives who defend this double standard are cowards and beggars appealing to the most mé féiner mentality of the Irish population, that small tenant farmer post-Famine mentality which obdurately refuses to pay higher taxes for the social services which we depend on EU handouts to maintain.

As an Irishman, I am willing to pay higher taxes for better social services and for more social justice in Ireland. For the reasons above, our current stance on the low corporation tax rate is so obviously hyprocritical and a source of shame.

It's long past the time that Irish people approached this issue honestly. This is not Ireland's finest hour. Our representatives' hypocrisy is doing awful (irreparable?) damage to Ireland's reputation in the more socially just EU societies which I admire.

PS: Without doubt, Ireland's representatives should be telling the French and Germans that we are not paying for their bondholders' losses in Irish banks. That's where the French and Germans are patently playing national politics.

CommuterIE

HellFireClub wrote: »

Aren't we the big man of Europe, handing out massive tax relief to every Tom Dick and Harry while we haven't a pot to p*ss into, aren't we great altogether... :rolleyes:

It would I believe be political suicide for the new government to raise the CT rate and then have thousands of more redundancies... it will cost more money that we don't have in the long run

HellFireClub

Cathaoirleach wrote: »

Sarkozy and Merkel can fúck right off. We´re not going to budge on the corpo tax.

If they don´t give us a better interest rate, we will have no choice but to default. That would really fúck up the Eurozone, wouldn´t it.

Stand your ground, Enda.

Aren't we the big man of Europe, handing out massive tax relief to every Tom Dick and Harry while we haven't a pot to p*ss into, aren't we great altogether... :rolleyes:

kraggy

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

A 1% interest rate decrease will only save us 500m out of 70.5 billion. Noonan should tell the Germans and French to feck off.

That's wrong. It's way more than that.

e.g. if you're mortgage is 300,000, and for 20 years, you pay about 120,000 interest. That's c. 40%.

40% of 70bn = 28bn.

I know we won't be paying it over 20 years, but you see what I mean. The interest figures are way higher than what you think.

Cathaoirleach

Sarkozy and Merkel can fúck right off. We´re not going to budge on the corpo tax.

If they don´t give us a better interest rate, we will have no choice but to default. That would really fúck up the Eurozone, wouldn´t it.

Stand your ground, Enda.

HellFireClub

CommuterIE wrote: »

A lot of Multinationals would get up and leave... any increase would force them to reconsider their position, even if it's only a small increase, as they know that it will more than likely be an upward trend from then on...

They are not here long term anyway, CT rate unchanged or not. Where's Dell now??? We are codding ourselves if we think in such a backward kip of a state that businesses will stay here for a CT rate, while everything else is inefficient and bad value for money.

Spudmonkey

MIN2511 wrote: »

I'll rather we stick with the interest rate we have than increase the corporate tax

This posturing on the interest rate is completely academic. Were we given the bailout at 0% we would probably not be able to pay it back.

cosanostra

Wait till we hear michael noonan and edna kenny selling us this one ya gotta think why do germany and france want an increase even if it is just a wee token gesture them bloody rothschilds are at it again weres hitler when you need him.

HellFireClub

If our precious 12.5% CT rate was really fit for purpose and doing what it is claimed to do in terms of securing employment, then can someone explain to me how come we have just under half a million people out of work and living on social welfare???

Guess what??? It's a failed policy that has not promoted job creation here in this country, apart from maybe 100K jobs that are brought here by NMC's who export all of their profits.

It doesn't make sense to keep running with an obviously failed policy that employs 100K people who are employed by businesses that send money out of the country, while failing to provide for the creation of employment for 500,000 people, who could be employed by businesses that will keep the profits in this state.

So painful and all as I'm sure it will be for the pigs with their noses in the national trough, it's better to try a new policy that doesn't result in half a million people out of work...

pragmatic1

m@cc@ wrote: »

*cough* 80m bailout *cough*

In reality, the country is already in poverty since it's living off money which doesn't belong to it. It's in the EU's interest for Ireland to sort it's s***e out.

As bad as it is now it could get a whole lot worse. If multinationals start leaving it wont be pretty.

johnmcdnl

can someone tell me how much we'll make if we incrase the CT by 2% say??

and how much will the EU reduce the interest rates

for the amount of money we'll make and save is it worth pissing off the biggest richest countries in the country?? if they started upping ship how much money would we loose in total which would leave us worse off

CommuterIE

HellFireClub wrote: »

We can't do that, they'll all up and leave in the morning don't you know or haven't you heard?!?!?!?!? :rolleyes:

A lot of Multinationals would get up and leave... any increase would force them to reconsider their position, even if it's only a small increase, as they know that it will more than likely be an upward trend from then on...

pragmatic1

CommuterIE wrote: »

I don't see your point.... increase the corporation tax and these organisations will simply leave. Increasing the CT is not something Ireland can realisticly do and would imo be the final nail in the coffin

Exactly. Its getting hard to compete with the Eastern European EU members as it is.

Big Nasty

Who's that chick in the RTE link? Never noticed her on the box before! Hardly what you would call stunning but deserving of a rattle all the same!

SeaFields

Increase the sh!t out of the CTR I say

and then reduce it again through tax breaks like the French do, in the small print.

HellFireClub

jesus_thats_gre wrote: »

Increase it by 0.01% as a gesture of goodwill.

We can't do that, they'll all up and leave in the morning don't you know or haven't you heard?!?!?!?!? :rolleyes: