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The Corrib Tape

BrianD

Anybody listen to it?

I think there is a lesson to be learned re the confiscation of any recording equipment.

Listened to it. Starts with the arrest, all reasonably done it with seem.

A conversation then starts about the challenges of health and safety and removing protestors from heights. Nothing unreasonable about this. Every job has it s challenges.

One Garda makes an absolutely bizarre remark saying "give me your name or I'll rape you". While completely inappropriate it was made in jest in private amongst colleagues and not to a member of the public. Why this would enter the mind of somebody to say even in private is beyond me. A wrong and inappropriate remark - it's not something that you joke about.

Anyway talk about landing a prize PR coup to the protestors!

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[Deleted User]

RoverJames wrote: »

That's a good point. I have a fairly sick sense of humour but the context they used the rape term in was not at all funny. Take your name and address and rape you, deport and rape you. WTF , it's not even remotely funny. The fact that two or three Gardai laughed at it along with the lad who said it is fairly shocking. Can't really understand anyone standing up for these mongs or trying to explain it as a bit of crack either. Sick f**kers.

Ban or delete as ye feel fit.

I agree, anyone can make a stupid and sick comment.

But for all Gardai present in the car, including a superior, to jump on the rape joke without missing a beat is shocking.

[Deleted User]

Spacedog wrote: »

Public Order Act specifies that a Garda believes someone has committed an offence, they can ask their name and address, and arrest them if they believe they are not telling the truth?

The girl wouldn't giver her name, was clearly familiar with another woman at the scene who was getting arrested by AGS at the time, was uncooperative and, from the looks of the video, tried to push past Gardaì to her friend, who she claimed was unsafe.

I'd say that's reason enough.

I don't believe either of the ladies involved reported Gardaì or complained, so I'd assume they agree that they weren't arrested unlawfully.

challengemaster

First to state I've no experience with these laws, I've no qualifications in Irish law, this is just from looking at the video evidence and applying the laws and what I know and can readily find out about them, so don't take things too much to heart if I'm wrong here...

Deleted User wrote: »

The girl wouldn't giver her name, was clearly familiar with another woman at the scene who was getting arrested by AGS at the time, was uncooperative and, from the looks of the video, tried to push past Gardaì to her friend, who she claimed was unsafe.

I'd say that's reason enough.

I don't believe either of the ladies involved reported Gardaì or complained, so I'd assume they agree that they weren't arrested unlawfully.

CRIMINAL JUSTICE (PUBLIC ORDER) ACT, 1994, Section 24.

24.—(1) Where a member of the Garda Siochana finds any person committing an offence under a relevant provision, the member may arrest such person without warrant.

(2) Where a member of the Garda Siochana is of the opinion that an offence has been committed under a relevant provision, the member may—
( a ) demand the name and address of any person whom the member suspects, with reasonable cause, has committed, or whom the member finds committing, such an offence, and
( b ) arrest without warrant any such person who fails or refuses to give his name and address when demanded, or gives a name or address which the member has reasonable grounds for believing is false or misleading.

(3) Any person who fails or refuses to give his name and address when demanded by virtue of subsection (2), or gives a name or address when so demanded which is false or misleading, shall be guilty of an offence.

There's the part of the Public Order act that allows Gardaí to ask for a name and address.

Without invoking this part of the Public order act, a Garda has no right to ask for a name and address - as a right to privicy is provided for in Article 40.3 of the Irish constitution.

Even if a Garda invokes the Public Order Act, he cannot demand your name and address unless he is of the opinion that you have committed an offence under that act.

AFAIK, To invoke the Public order act, You must also be informed first that you are committing an offence relative to the Public order act. As in, a garda cannot just invoke the Public order act for no reason, you must be committing an offence relative to that act, and you must be informed of that offence relative to the act.

I assume in this case, the offence was either "willful obstruction" or "trespass", however from the video footage, neither was mentioned, nor was there any mention of why the Public order act was being invoked. These may have been prior to the video, but I cannot comment on what I have no proof of. As such, and without any knowledge of the moments prior to the video, It seems like the gardaí bullying the person in an attempt to get details.

Also, Gardaí should at all times treat you with respect. They should not have any physical contact with you unless they are defending themselves, protecting other people or property or placing you under arrest. At one point ~1:50, just before the camera gets dropped it's quite obvious that the Garda grabs the arm of the person.

To me, it looks like unwarrented physical contact / force was used to restrain the person, as in the video they say multiple times to "let go of me"

It does seem like the bangarda conducted the arrest properly, however, as she does seem to give a reason for arrest and properly cautions the person.

Going by the only evidence that I (and most) have, which is the video, if the Public Order act was not correctally and rightfully invoked, then the arrest under section 24.2(b) was wrongful and charges could be pressed under civil and criminal law for wrongful arrest and false imprisonment. Also I believe that the Garda who used force to restrain the person can be charged with Assault under the Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act, 1997 - 2.—(1) A person shall be guilty of the offence of assault who, without lawful excuse, intentionally or recklessly—

(a) directly or indirectly applies force to or causes an impact on the body of another

Locust

challengemaster wrote: »

First to state I've no experience with these laws

Thanks.
Leave that for the courts...

This 'rape comment' was a throw away comment/laugh between friends/colleagues. Inappropriate - yeah sure - but it was said in a car, in private, and it just happened to be caught on tape. whats the Offence? Whats the crime? Who was the injured party here?

Gardai made an inappropriate remark in the car - NEWSFLASH - geez slow day in the News..
Is all of this media attention just because they have blue shirts and are supposed to be some kind of Batman type characters?!

Traumadoc

Whatever the reasons for the protest in Mayo, the Gardai are being damaged by their actions.

The banter between guards may have been only that , but it would equally have been critised if it was a group of ambos joking about raping a woman who inappropriately called for an ambulance.

Anything that happens now will be criticised by the media , and unfortunatly the Guards are caught in the middle.

Thoie

I'm finding the attitudes on this thread nearly as worrying as the original comments. I know the gardaí have a tough job, and need to let off steam/cope with things somehow. I have no sympathy for "professional" protesters who seem to turn up uninvited to cause trouble in other people's communities.

What I'm picking up from here is that if any of the gardaí were in the same situation on duty, and one of their colleagues made an impromptu rape joke, it's OK to not call him/her on it? It's so OK that you can join in? Even if you're in a more senior position?

It would be bad enough if these were call centre staff. Imagine the scenario - after a difficult call with an unreasonable customer, a few people, including a supervisor, are sitting in the canteen, joking about the protocol for starting calls. "Hi, I'm Bob, can I have your name and account number please? Can you verify your address please... and I'll call over and rape you later" I'd expect at the very least someone would change the topic quickly.

For me it's not just the fact that someone made a rape joke out of the blue that's the problem. It's that the other two leapt in to play along. Is there a culture in the gardaí of not disagreeing with a colleague no matter what they're at? That's not a healthy culture in any organisation, and it's particularly worrying in an organisation who find themselves frequently in a position of power over detainees.

MagicSean

This arguing is a bit futile. I'm sure anyone involved in the emergency services understand why the lads said what they did. And those who have no involvement probably won't. I doubt any amount of discussion will change that.

Traumadoc

k_mac wrote: »

This arguing is a bit futile. I'm sure anyone involved in the emergency services understand why the lads said what they did. And those who have no involvement probably won't. I doubt any amount of discussion will change that.

I am sure a lot of people involved in the emergency services such as female members will not.

Terrontress

Locust wrote: »

Thanks.
Leave that for the courts...

This 'rape comment' was a throw away comment/laugh between friends/colleagues. Inappropriate - yeah sure - but it was said in a car, in private, and it just happened to be caught on tape. whats the Offence? Whats the crime? Who was the injured party here?

Gardai made an inappropriate remark in the car - NEWSFLASH - geez slow day in the News..
Is all of this media attention just because they have blue shirts and are supposed to be some kind of Batman type characters?!

Can the inside of a Garda car be described as private?

I think the media attention stems from the fact that rape is, and has been, used throughout the world by police forces and armies as a method of torture and intimidation of dissenters and minorities.

We, in Ireland, are different to those regimes and so to have a Garda joke about rape in the course of his duties is in poor taste.

They've been caught, it's unfortunate, punish them and then let it be a lesson to others to be more careful.

JonJoeDali

If it was a priest, people would be up in arms and demanding assets be stripped from the church. I expect similar standards from members of the Gardai.

MagicSean

Traumadoc wrote: »

I am sure a lot of people involved in the emergency services such as female members will not.

And if they can put their hand on their heart and swear they've never said anything wrong or inappropriate while on duty they are probably lying.

Traumadoc

Ah sure it's only harmless:rolleyes: ....

These guards should not lose their jobs but they should be subject to some retraining - the public confidence in a generally superb force has been eroded.

It should maintain the high regard , be respected but act when it is in danger of losing that respect.

Dermot Illogical

JonJoeDali wrote: »

If it was a priest, people would be up in arms and demanding assets be stripped from the church. I expect similar standards from members of the Gardai.

A measured and appropriate response indeed.
Anyway, you all seem to have the up in arms bit covered. Let's get started on the asset-stripping. Dibs on the new avensis outside my local station.

Dermot Illogical

In everyone's rush to hang these lads at the behest of the delighted/offended (delete as appropriate) protesters, you've all assumed that you do know the full context. The assumption has been made that the rape reference came out of the blue. Perhaps it didn't? What if the members policing the protests there are habitually called rapists (among all the other terms of abuse they receive as a matter of course) by hysterical crusties? Then it's a fairly harmless and humorous method of dealing with such abuse once out of the public eye.

CarMuppet

RT66 wrote: »

In everyone's rush to hang these lads at the behest of the delighted/offended (delete as appropriate) protesters, you've all assumed that you do know the full context. The assumption has been made that the rape reference came out of the blue. Perhaps it didn't? What if the members policing the protests there are habitually called rapists (among all the other terms of abuse they receive as a matter of course) by hysterical crusties? Then it's a fairly harmless and humorous method of dealing with such abuse once out of the public eye.

I don't want people who think this type of behavior is acceptable working as a member of the AGS in this country. Members (and all other civil servants) are entitled to their opinions on various sections of the community etc. We all hold our own opinions, it's human nature, that’s fine.. but when they are on-duty/working they need to be professional enough to rise-above this type of 'laddish' behavior. These guys were in a state-owned car on duty are in the workplace. It doesn’t matter what names/insualts they were (might have been) called before this incident! They are/were Gardai, they are supposed to be absolute gentlemen/upstanding citizens! Please clarify you point above: are you saying that because they encounter nasty types on regular basis some of these nasty traits rub off??!! I hope not. I doubt it very much. Most of the Gardai I've met on the roads and in sporting/social settings are decent people imo. I don’t like even like categorizing as per my last sentence.. it’s a bit like saying most doctors/firemen/milkmen/builders/pilots are sound. Everyone is different!

As a US multinational employee if I was overheard making reference to raping a female customer/vendor/supplier/colleague that would result in an instant dismissal, and would probably mean the end of my career. It's in our contract and would be classed as ‘sexual harassment’. And I would expect the same terms in the civil service... is this the case?

I don’t’ know what the end result will be, time will tell, but personally, I hold what AGS stand-for in very very high regard. I have 2 relations and 1 friend in the force. I’m proud of our style of policing tbh. There will always be bad apples in all walks of life, it’s a human thing. But, how the senior officers in the force are seen to handle this very disappointing event will set the tone going forward. These guys really need to understand what they have done. Maybe these lads are just not cut-out for the job?

calibelle

A couple of Gardai had a stupid conversation believing it to be private and the country is up in arms.
I'm more disgusted about the woman who is using this as publicity for herself. At first she had no comment to make....then suddenly she was upset and shaken!

Seriously can't believe that people can't see that her using rape to get publicity is sickening and much much worse than a stupid thoughtless conversation.

We've all said things we've regretted afterwards but most people would have enough decency not to use it for their own gains.

Spacedog

RT66 wrote: »

What if the members policing the protests there are habitually called rapists (among all the other terms of abuse they receive as a matter of course) by hysterical crusties?

what if? so were on a hypethitical here?

seems like after the fact, many of you are trying to convince yourselves into a kind of justification for what was said and done. is this common?

I see potential abuse of power in the arrest of at least 1 woman - something that shell to sea have claimed is commonplace in the past and has been ignored.

I think the gardai here should not be scapegoated / made an example of. but overall the treatment of these feckin crusties needs to be investigated. because from the evedence, their madcap claims just got a whole lot more plausable this week.

hobbitt

To quote one officer:

"We didnt have any of them options there today"

Not quite up to Leaving Cert English grammar standards!

Dermot Illogical

CarMuppet wrote: »

Please clarify you point above: are you saying that because they encounter nasty types on regular basis some of these nasty traits rub off??!!

No. I thought I made it clear, but here goes again. I'm simply saying that the rape reference may not have come out of the blue (if you'll excuse the pun) and that there may be another context for it.
As an example, when someone calls me a pig I might be distraught & offended and go rushing to the nearest journo in tears - or I might make light of it by imitating a porker. It doesn't mean I'm wandering around with thoughts of swine in my head all day.
Likewise, if protesters were shouting "Murdering scum" at me all day, I might make light of it with my colleagues by joking that I would demand name & address, "or I'll murder you". Tommy Tiernan would have little to worry about, but then neither would the coroner.

All I'm saying is that there *may* be some external context to this that you all don't know about, but to not let that stop you from making Kilimanjaro out of this particular molehill.

CarMuppet

RT66 wrote: »

No. I thought I made it clear, but here goes again. I'm simply saying that the rape reference may not have come out of the blue (if you'll excuse the pun) and that there may be another context for it.
As an example, when someone calls me a pig I might be distraught & offended and go rushing to the nearest journo in tears - or I might make light of it by imitating a porker. It doesn't mean I'm wandering around with thoughts of swine in my head all day.
Likewise, if protesters were shouting "Murdering scum" at me all day, I might make light of it with my colleagues by joking that I would demand name & address, "or I'll murder you". Tommy Tiernan would have little to worry about, but then neither would the coroner.

All I'm saying is that there *may* be some external context to this that you all don't know about, but to not let that stop you from making Kilimanjaro out of this particular molehill.

Fair enough.. thanks for reiterating, I understand what you're saying.

As a random member of the public I do think this is a big deal.. sorry, but that's just an opinion.....

I hope it all gets sorted for all concerned asap.

Dermot Illogical

Spacedog wrote: »

what if? so were on a hypethitical here?

seems like after the fact, many of you are trying to convince yourselves into a kind of justification for what was said and done. is this common?

I see potential abuse of power in the arrest of at least 1 woman - something that shell to sea have claimed is commonplace in the past and has been ignored.

I think the gardai here should not be scapegoated / made an example of. but overall the treatment of these feckin crusties needs to be investigated. because from the evedence, their madcap claims just got a whole lot more plausable this week.

RoverJames claimed to know the context of the remarks. I made the point that he/she may not know the context. You then quote me out of context, which presumably suits your agenda. I'm just glad to have been of service.

Eru

just putting it out there but how would people feel if they turned on the news and saw themselves having a private conversation with a work colleague?

Im not saying I found the conversation funny, I didnt but Gardai are entitled to the same freedom of speech when in private that everyone gets. They should also be entitled to the same due process and presumption of innocence that all other citizens get.

Imagine for a second that a colleague secretely recorded what you believed to be a private conversation and then aired it on national tv in an article already finding you guilty of something thats not actually a crime. Would the boss discipline you or them? Would you apologise or sue?

(FYI: you cant claim that Gardai are in some special role or unique position / situation then in another thread complain that Garda are exempt from the law or should take a pay cut 'like everyone else'. Its one or the other)

My name is URL

It's being blown out of all proportion in any case, and that can't be changed now. Did anyone see the headline that the Belfast Telegraph ran with today?

Garda rape probe: Young women tell of terror during arrest

Of course Gardai should be granted the same graces as regular citizens and allowed to exercise free speech but the problem has gone beyond what jokes were made at this stage. It's the reaction to the whole thing that is more damaging. AGS need to act quickly for the simple reason that they need to save face. The guys making the jibes were in uniform and the video managed to make it into the public realm.. it's unfortunate but it's too late to change that now.

The best thing would be for the lads in question to be made to issue a statement of apology and for the Garda Commissioner to reiterate that such behaviour is not seen as acceptable in a professional context within the organisation. The amount of arguing that's taking place over this is pointless, and trying to justify why no action should be taken only exacerbates the whole thing.

Spacedog

RT66 wrote: »

RoverJames claimed to know the context of the remarks. I made the point that he/she may not know the context. You then quote me out of context, which presumably suits your agenda. I'm just glad to have been of service.

I'm just responding to the words you said, I don't think that example is a plausable example. I have not seen or heard of protesters falsely calling police rapists to provoke them, and think it would be in extremely bad taste if they did.

I have no sinister agenda, I have formed the opinion that the people protesting the corrib pipeline are decent people, and would be happy to see an independent enquiry into the policing of the situation there. If the protesters are as horrible and abusive as is suggested here, then both you and AGS would also like to be validated by an independent evaluation.

midlandsmissus

I read it and thought it was so bizarre, not an average joke, seemed to come out of nowhere. But it makes more sense now. Apparantly the girl didnt want to go in the car with all male officers as she was afraid theyd do something to her, and went in the other car instead. So the converstion is in response to this. Guards who are annoyed at her thinking theyd do something to her. Making fun of her really for thinking something extreme would happen to her, 'we'd arrest her and rape her according to her'.

eroo

So while everyone slates the Gardai, why do they not slate the media for their headlines which are ridculously tongue in cheek in regards to what some have deemed a very serious issue?

From Breaking News.ie,

Gardaí to be probed over Corrib rape jibe

Just goes to show how ridiculous this affair is.

mr cowen

http://vimeo.com/21952231

Terrontress

Eru wrote: »

just putting it out there but how would people feel if they turned on the news and saw themselves having a private conversation with a work colleague?

I'm not sure that a conversation between people paid by the public purse while in a publicly owned car could be classed as private.

What if one of the Gardai present had been offended and had repeated it verbatim to a superior officer? Would that be brushed off as a private conversation as it took place in a car?

[Deleted User]

RT66 wrote: »

RoverJames claimed to know the context of the remarks.

Did I?

Iwannahurl

GRA does not condone "any conduct or discussion that attacks women or women’s rights".

Gardaí found guilty of any wrongdoing in an alleged rape remarks controversy face the gravest of consequences, rank-and-file leaders have warned.

But the Garda Representative Association (GRA), which speaks for the force grassroots, insisted “due process” must be allowed in two probes into the incident at the Corrib gas project in Co Mayo.

PJ Stone, the GRA general secretary, also stressed allegations that officers joked about raping protesters were no reflection on the force as a whole.

“This incident should be viewed in isolation; it is to be dealt with in a disciplinary context,” he said.

“If the gardai are found guilty of any wrongdoing it carries the gravest of consequences.”

[...]

The force watchdog, the Garda Ombudsman, has also taken the unusual step of launching its own inquiry in the public interest.

Mr Stone said officers do not condone any conduct or discussion that attacks women or women’s rights.

He added: “You can not take from one incident that the entire Garda Siochana is misogynist.

“It has never been appropriate to make suggestive comments about rape; not in 1922 and not now.”

Superintendent Jim Smith, president of the Association of Garda Superintendents (AGS), insisted there would be a speedy outcome to the internal inquiry.

The senior officer also stressed the reported remarks were not reflective of the entire force.

“We would not condone these reported remarks and they are not reflective of the mindset of the Garda Siochana,” he said.

“We deal with these matters in a very professional manner and with compassion and sensitivity.