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Irish heritage v. Being Irish

Killer Wench

I read through this section's charter so hopefully this thread doesn't go against any of the rules. So I'll cross my fingers and hope it doesn't get locked.

In the US, I meet a lot of Americans who identify themselves as being Irish when most do not have Irish citizenship, have never been to Ireland, and couldn't name their Irish ancestor if asked. This isn't exclusive to Irish heritage, but unlike other places, there seems to be a huge acknowledgement from Irish people (meaning born and reared in Ireland) of the "Irish" in the US.

I get the diaspora thing. I do. But, I wonder if a person who has no recent or solid ties to their ancestral homeland should consider themselves a part of that homeland, i.e. ain't been there, never gonna go.

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Chaotic_Forces

Killer Wench wrote: »

Then why not say, I'm of Irish heritage, as saying "I'm Irish" implies a certain claim to citizenship or national identity.

Because most of the fu*king idiots think they are Irish.

davyjose

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Fu*king muppets. That's the nice way of saying it.

Duh... I'm Irish

"oh what county"?

"what's a county"?

They have counties in America -- sorry to burst that bubble on you, pal.

What's more strange to me, is how the most educated, powerful, wealthy country in the world has deigned to have some kind of affinity to a nation where drinking is on a par with every other level of societal behaviour, and who treat them as subserviant, despite the fact that through business, industry, and culture they are a massive part of the reason we are who we are.

No other nation, outside the EU contributes to our wealth like they do (and I daresay, there's a lot more American industries in our "fair land" than french or german ones). No other nation, so powerful in every aspect, has such a strong connection to Irish culture -- i don't think anyone here whose spent more than a month in the US hasn't met someone whose Irish heritage means more to them than their American lineage.

Any allusion to the fact that we don't enjoy their love for a small nation, no-one else gets to enjoy, is sad, and wrong, and a little bit beyond the point of self-important arrogance, and downright spoiltness.

digme

Killer Wench wrote: »

Some do and I find that problematic, too. I have friends who were born in Nigeria or who were first generation American born to Moroccan parents. One identified themself as being Nigerian American and the other as being "African American". They had solid and recent connections to specific African communities; where as Blacks have an ancestral connection to African communities but very few of us know which tribes they happen to be. I recently took one of those ancestry DNA tests to see if they could identify which African tribe I am descended from, I got a general idea but no concrete connection.

But again, calling oneself African American is much different than saying "I'm African" or "I'm Nigerian" when there are no recent connections to Africa or Nigeria.

It is a bit messed up dealing with all these labels, but take your nigerian friend, he says he's nigerian american, but consider an someone born in the uk to irish parents and then coming back to live in ireland.He would then call himself irish english.
It sounds bonkers doesn't;'t it.But when you move to a neutral place like america your nigerian friend doesn't sound bonkers saying he's nigerian american .
Where you able to find out what part of africa you are from at all?

Diabhal Beag

If you're really Irish you don't boast about being Irish.

Chaotic_Forces

davyjose wrote: »

They have counties in America -- sorry to burst that bubble on you, pal.

What's more strange to me, is how the most educated, powerful, wealthy country in the world has deigned to have some kind of affinity to a nation where drinking is on a par with every other level of societal behaviour, and who treat them as subserviant, despite the fact that through business, industry, and culture they are a massive part of the reason we are who we are.

No other nation, outside the EU contributes to our wealth like they do (and I daresay, there's a lot more American industries in our "fair land" than french or german ones). No other nation, so powerful in every aspect, has such a strong connection to Irish culture -- i don't think anyone here whose spent more than a month in the US hasn't met someone whose Irish heritage means more to them than their American lineage.

Any allusion to the fact that we don't enjoy their love for a small nation, no-one else gets to enjoy, is sad, and wrong, and a little bit beyond the point of self-important arrogance, and downright spoiltness.

Yeah and? Most of them couldn't even name 5 of the 32 counties if their lives depended on it.

Killer Wench

digme wrote: »

It is a bit messed up dealing with all these labels, but take your nigerian friend, he says he's nigerian american, but consider an someone born in the uk to irish parents and then coming back to live in ireland.He would then call himself irish english.
It sounds bonkers doesn't;'t it.But when you move to a neutral place like america your nigerian friend doesn't sound bonkers saying he's nigerian american .
Where you able to find out what part of africa you are from at all?

I think the British are a unique case. I know an English dude who calls himself British but my Scottish friend is Scottish and my Welsh friends are Welsh.

As for my ancestors, they said that they were a Bantu-speaking people which I believe encompasses many different ethnic tribes across many different nations. Not entirely helpful but as that science improves, perhaps so will the info.

mike65

One wonders at what point Americans will simply think of themselves as being American.

TheUsual

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Yeah and? Most of them couldn't even name 5 of the 32 counties if their lives depended on it.

So they missed the Irish Geography classes and don't speak as Gaeilge.
This just means they had a different education that you didn't get. It doesn't mean that they have no Irish blood in them, or that where you were born decides your claim to be Irish ?

Chaotic_Forces

TheUsual wrote: »

So they missed the Irish Geography classes and don't speak as Gaeilge.
This just means they had a different education that you didn't get. It doesn't mean that they have no Irish blood in them, or that where you were born decides your claim to be Irish ?

Actually it does. You were either born here and are Irish or you aren't. End of dicussion.

firefly08

One wonders at what point Americans will simply think of themselves as being American.

I'm guessing you have never been to America.

Believe me, they consider themselves American first and foremost and they place that ahead of just about everything else.

TheUsual

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

End of discussion.

Oh right bedtime.
Goodnight.

Chaotic_Forces

TheUsual wrote: »

Oh right bedtime.
Goodnight.

Well that's a wonderful argument. Problem is that you are born where you are and are from that country. I know you want it to be some magical world were you can say "I AM HE-MAN FROM GREYSKULL" or whever the heck he's from but it's not like this.

Duckworth_Luas

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Yeah and? Most of them couldn't even name 5 of the 32 counties if their lives depended on it.

There was a thread here a week ago about an online Irish county game, some posters here struggled to get 5.

Chaotic_Forces

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

There was a thread here a week ago about an online Irish county game, some posters here struggled to get 5.

No, that was to locate them. I can easily rattle of 10 states in America and I've never even set foot on the land.

mike65

firefly08 wrote: »

I'm guessing you have never been to America.

Believe me, they consider themselves American first and foremost and they place that ahead of just about everything else.

Evidence suggests it doesn't take much to prompt vague wooly emotional feelings for places halfway round the world though.

davyjose

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Yeah and? Most of them couldn't even name 5 of the 32 counties if their lives depended on it.

Yeah and? Lol. Oh wow, how can i argue with "yeah and"?

Let me guess -- you're on the Trinity College debate team?

"I'm against the cultural impact of globalization on smaller business and the economical influence they wield on smaller economies"

"Yeah and!!!"

"Oooh ya got me there!!!"

:pac: There's a room full of people laughing at you here, buddy!!!

Chaotic_Forces

davyjose wrote: »

Yeah and? Lol. Oh wow, how can i argue with "yeah and"?

Let me guess -- you're on the Trinity College debate team?

"I'm against the cultural impact of globalization on smaller business and the economical influence they wield on smaller economies"

"Yeah and!!!"

"Oooh ya got me there!!!"

:pac: There's a room full of people laughing at you here, buddy!!!

Yeah... so? What do you think? That I care that you and your mates think it's
entertaining to laugh? good for you.

Duckworth_Luas

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

No, that was to locate them. I can easily rattle of 10 states in America and I've never even set foot on the land.

Yet you're an expert on the idiosyncrasies of the Irish-American sub-culture of the USA?

digme

Killer Wench wrote: »

I think the British are a unique case. I know an English dude who calls himself British but my Scottish friend is Scottish and my Welsh friends are Welsh.

As for my ancestors, they said that they were a Bantu-speaking people which I believe encompasses many different ethnic tribes across many different nations. Not entirely helpful but as that science improves, perhaps so will the info.

Now your complicating things.The only reason he is saying that is the fact they own more than england.

I think it is a racial thing more than a country thing.If a nigerian moved to somalia he wont call himself nigerian somalian.

Hopefully it does improve and you can find out some more.
Africa is gigantic so it would be cool if you could narrow it down.

Chaotic_Forces

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Yet your an expert on the idiosyncrasies of the Irish-American sub-culture of the USA?

My what?

Daroxtar

Do you know what annoys my hole? Some fúcking twat from a boghole in the midlands claiming to be Obama's eighth cousin.

Eighth Cousin??? There's no such fúcking thing as an eighth cousin. Thats called a stranger Ferfuksake. Darwin couldn't connect them.

So, ya wannabe, Stop being such a fúcking attention seeker. Eighth cousin my sh!te. Such a reek of neediness makes me want to puke.

And oh yeah, HE'S KENYAN

digme

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

My what?

hump

Chaotic_Forces

digme wrote: »

hump

Oh, you removed and fixed it.

I never said I was an expert.

digme

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Oh, you removed and fixed it.

I never said I was an expert.

that song popped into my head i wans't trying to take the piss lol

Killer Wench

There is such a thing as eighth cousin. I believe Obama and George W. Bush are ninth or tenth cousins. That would roughly equate to them having a common ancestor in the 1600s.

Through that same test that was to tell me my African heritage, I also have been connected to fourth to tenth cousins.

Daroxtar

Oh sweet jesus

Duckworth_Luas

Daroxtar wrote: »

Eighth Cousin??? There's no such fúcking thing as an eighth cousin. Thats called a stranger Ferfuksake. Darwin couldn't connect them.

LooseMoose

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

I've never even set foot on the land.

So where doe's your opinions come from watching Jerry Springer and the odd American asking you for directions in temple bar???

davyjose

Chaotic_Forces wrote: »

Yeah... so? What do you think? That I care that you and your mates think it's
entertaining to laugh? good for you.

I think you should be more focused on the fact that your 3rd hand argument about "yanks", is so insubstantial and unresearched that rather than listening to an altenative argument, you throw up a catchall statement like "yeah and" rather than find think of a credible counter.

It's admirable that despite a complete absence of intellegence -- not even enough to attempt some kind of quasi-rebuttal -- you still make an attempt yo spar. I love how you switched up the ol "yeah and", and made it a "Yeah ... so". You're super-awesome, dude.

southsiderosie

I understand where the whole "I'm Irish" thing comes from, especially in working class areas of New York and Boston. The Irish really were thought of as a separate (and lowly) race in the US for much of the 19th and early 20th century, and Boston Irish in particular developed a kind of siege mentality due to the discrimination they faced. But it is also a bit bizarre, because the view of what is "Irish" in a lot of these neighborhoods is stuck in this weird 1914 time warp. (It is also ironic, based on their history, that a lot of these neighborhoods were considered racist as hell in the latter 20th century).