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If GOD wants belief in him based on faith...

shadowcomplex

then isn't it logical to asume he would make it seem from a scientific point of view he doesn't exist

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Ghost Buster

MagicMarker wrote: »

Those people are mental.

omen80 wrote: »

I agree but you have to remember that there are people that claim to have seen him appear in the skies etc. In order to believe those people you would need to have a bit of faith first no? They would claim that just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen....

But but but ITS GOD!!!!! THE BIG G.
Appear to the entire population at the same time whilst going out live on Fox News and TG4.... Sorted.

Zillah

omen80 wrote: »

I agree but you have to remember that there are people that claim to have seen him appear in the skies etc. In order to believe those people you would need to have a bit of faith first no? They would claim that just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen....

What you originally said was "I fail to see how else he would achieve belief in him apart from faith??" Yes, you need faith to believe in God if, for some insane reason, he chooses to appear to only a small number of people. But if he appeared to everyone then that is how people would believe in him without requiring faith.

If I went around all day only visible to a select few mentally ill people then you'd need a bit of faith to believe in me, but luckily I just appear to everyone equally, walls and the horizon not withstanding. Basically if God wanted everyone to know he existed he could make that happen at any instant.

There is no reason that a real God would care about faith. Only an imaginary God would demand people have faith in him.

robindch

Zillah wrote: »

The whole Jesus thing was a little ambiguous at best, y'know?

The Jesus thing is ambiguous in some way?

On the contrary, I think it's quite clear what happened.

Zillah

robindch wrote: »

The Jesus thing is ambiguous in some way?

On the contrary, I think it's quite clear what happened.

Well yes, I suppose.

...he was a spaceman.

http://media.s6cdn.net/cdn/images/post_10/117826_3300053_l.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmZg7tvGN9o

oldrnwisr

shadowcomplex wrote: »

then isn't it logical to asume he would make it seem from a scientific point of view he doesn't exist

The title of your OP makes the assumption that God exists and then goes on to pose a question about God's motivations in leaving evidence lying around for us to find.

You sure that's a solid foundation for debate in an A&A forum?

krudler

omen80 wrote: »

I agree but you have to remember that there are people that claim to have seen him appear in the skies etc. In order to believe those people you would need to have a bit of faith first no? They would claim that just because you didn't see it doesn't mean it didn't happen....

Faith in the fact they're crazy, yes.

Yesterday I saw an apparition of Yoda driving a dune buggy, just cos you didnt see it doesnt mean it didnt happen...

krudler

dead one wrote: »

God has created science to strengthen the faith of believers. So scientific point of view is showing his existence. Exploring science opens the door to an understanding of God that compliment scientific truth.

Did he create science by using science? or magic? If he did create something from itself which didnt already exist to begin with,well you've just proved the big bang theory, congratulations!

Turtwig

shadowcomplex wrote: »

then isn't it logical to asume he would make it seem from a scientific point of view he doesn't exist

Well, I'm just gonna say this argument is valid because that means Intelligent Design has no philosophical basis in science.

clever_name

dead one wrote: »

God has created science to strengthen the faith of believers.

? By showing evidence that he does not exist so that people can ignore it?

dead one wrote: »

So scientific point of view is showing his existence.

Em, er, hate to tell you but I think you have made a mistake, you have mixed the phrases "scientific point of view" and "fantasy based on old books"

im invisible

liamw wrote: »

That's a good point. The Flying Spagetti Monster and the Invisible Pink Unicorn must have had the same idea....

that was just an ironic thanks i gave you, blah blah Godwin, blah blah teapot mohommad jesus christ...

dead one

krudler wrote: »

Did he create science by using science? or magic? If he did create something from itself which didnt already exist to begin with,

He used "science" to create "science", so that mankind can use "science" to gain a greater understanding of God. Science is showing "there is much higher Power" who used and created "science" for "science of Mankind".

krudler wrote: »

well you've just proved the big bang theory, congratulations!

So you aren't free thinker even about Big Bang Theory. Isn't it true?

dead one

clever_name wrote: »

? By showing evidence that he does not exist so that people can ignore it?
Can you show me evidence about
Em, er, hate to tell you but I think you have made a mistake, you have mixed the phrases "scientific point of view" and "fantasy based on old books"

Well, if you don't live in fantasy than try to explain following points.
What scientific points do you want to put to religious to "disprove" them?
1. Mass Hypnosis?
2. Mass Hysteria?
3. Strength of Positive Thinking?
4. Placebo Effect
5. Mind over body
6. Thinking with solution
6. Etc Etc.

GO_Bear

dead one wrote: »

Science is showing "there is much higher Power" who used and created "science" for "science of Mankind".

What ?

dead one wrote: »

Well, if you don't live in fantasy than try to explain following points.
What scientific points do you want to put to religious to "disprove" them?

Even more what ???

I realize that it may not be your first language but I really can't understand your posts to do a rebuttal

dead one

GO_Bear wrote: »

What ?

Even more what ???

I realize that it may not be your first language but I really can't understand your posts to do a rebuttal

You don't realize because you don't have answer .

Go Bear, Go Bear.:cool: what is difficult to understand?

GO_Bear

dead one wrote: »

You don't realize because you don't have answer .
Go Bear, Go Bear.:cool: what is difficult to understand?

dead one wrote: »

Science is showing "there is much higher Power" who used and created "science" for "science of Mankind"

Picking out the key words then.

Quite on the contrary dead one. Science which is interested in testable and observable evidence in no way " shows there is a higher power who created science for mankind " since this Higher Power is immaterial and non physical

Every bit of "evidence" for religion is created by man. Holy Books, monuments, hearsay, conjecture and anecdotes. All are mankind's first and worst attempt at explaining what could not be explained at that time.

dead one

GO_Bear wrote: »

Picking out the key words then.

Quite on the contrary dead one. Science which is interested in testable and observable evidence in no way " shows there is a higher power who created science for mankind " since this Higher Power is immaterial and non physical

Every bit of "evidence" for religion is created by man. Holy Books, monuments, hearsay, conjecture and anecdotes. All are mankind's first and worst attempt at explaining what could not be explained at that time.

Science is based on observable experiments, It shows science is conducted in the Present not the Past. Just for your explanation, Evolution isn't testable because we can't see past by the same logic neither creation isn't testable.

Now try to answer these question

1. Do you think a thing as real only if it testable by science
2. What is love, Do you think it is real
3. What are historical events, Are they real.
So in order to find truth, we need eyes witness account, that is God who knows every thing, So that eyes witness record is Book of God, Some books are corrupted but there is one true all of them.
I hope you know about cosmology that is every effect must have cause. Everything in universe is an effect, There must be somthing that caused everything to come into existence. That Something is God.

I have source for believing in God, What you have just theories.

MagicMarker

dead one wrote: »

Science is based on observable experiments, It shows science is conducted in the Present not the Past. Just for your explanation, Evolution isn't testable because we can't see past by the same logic neither creation isn't testable.

Now try to answer these question

1. Do you think a thing as real only if it testable by science
2. What is love, Do you think it is real
3. What are historical events, Are they real.
So in order to find truth, we need eyes witness account, that is God who knows every thing, So that eyes witness record is Book of God, Some books are corrupted but there is one true all of them.
I hope you know about cosmology that is every effect must have cause. Everything in universe is an effect, There must be somthing that caused everything to come into existence. That Something is God.

I have source for believing in God, What you have just theories.

You've officially made my ignore list.

GO_Bear

dead one wrote: »

Science is based on observable experiments, It shows science is conducted in the Present not the Past. Just for your explanation, Evolution isn't testable because we can't see past by the same logic neither creation isn't testable.

Evolution is easily testable, and observable , we can see microbes acquiring antibiotic resistance. We can also do this in the lab, and we can repeat it. Over and over and over and over and over again.

dead one wrote: »

1. Do you think a thing as real only if it testable by science

Something is only scientific if it is testable by science and I am withholding judgment on any other phenomenon that we can't test yet, until the day we can test it.

I do however take some things without observing evidence or testing it myself. This is from sources I know have been trust worthy in the past. If Nature published a paper saying that they have found aliens on mars. I would be skeptical, but I would not doubt the validity of it as it is a prestigious journal.

Or my mother telling me she would pick me up from the pub. I will take her word for it.

Religion on the other hand has shown itself to be rather untrustworthy, in both spewing nonsense, trying to spread that nonsense, and censoring things that upset that nonsense.

So no, I won't accept there is a God based on faith from these or any other people. Because that is a monumental assumption which would change everything we have observed so far.

dead one wrote: »

2. What is love, Do you think it is real

Yes, but I assume it may be different to your interpretation, its a result of living in social environments, a construct of social species.

Does this devalue it ? Certainly not

I love my family and friends and would move mountains for them.

Do you really think that the animal kingdom would have gotten this far without love ?

dead one wrote: »

3. What are historical events, Are they real.

The artifacts we find certainly are real? As for the events we can only assume but with enough evidence we can make those assumptions. Certainly when we know that what we are assuming is LOGICALLY POSSIBLE

dead one wrote: »

So in order to find truth, we need eyes witness account, that is God who knows every thing, So that eyes witness record is Book of God, Some books are corrupted but there is one true all of them.

That is one massive ****ing logically impossible assumption .

Point me out the one true please.

dead one wrote: »

I hope you know about cosmology that is every effect must have cause. Everything in universe is an effect, There must be somthing that caused everything to come into existence. That Something is God.

Are you kidding me ?

If my girlfriend leaves a note on my fridge telling me she will leave Ireland for ever if I do not call her by tomorrow afternoon.

If I did not see the note and she left.

I would say thats a pretty big effect.

What caused this. Was it something I did ? was it something she did ?

Was it the fact I did not see the note and could not call her that she left ?
Because if it is that scenario then I did nothing and this nothing has a pretty big effect on my life does it not ?
But all this is irrelevant because we do not know the full story, much like we do not know the full story of the cosmos. So we can postulate possible working theory's and dispense impossible illogical rhetoric

dead one wrote: »

I have source for believing in God, What you have just theories.

Do you not realize by now that what drives me is the journey, the discovery and finding out how the universe works.

No what you have is faith. Faith and a story. A badly written story which you can interpret any way that it suits you.

My "theories" are mans greatest accomplishment. They strengthen our knowledgepool and bring us closer to understanding the universe

Zombrex

dead one wrote: »

Science is based on observable experiments, It shows science is conducted in the Present not the Past. Just for your explanation, Evolution isn't testable because we can't see past by the same logic neither creation isn't testable.

Or electricity, or gravity, or in fact most of physics, and chemistry, oh and biology, since by the notion of locality by the time you observe something it has already happened and thus is in the past.

So really nothing is testable.

Not sure you thought that one through fully.....

clever_name

dead one wrote: »

Science is based on observable experiments, It shows science is conducted in the Present not the Past. J

I did science yesterday, when yesterday was the present - ta da!

dead one wrote: »

Just for your explanation, Evolution isn't testable because we can't see past by the same logic neither creation isn't testable.

My logic states that the moon is made of cheese so by the same logic the sun is a peach.

dead one wrote: »

So in order to find truth, we need eyes witness account, that is God who knows every thing, So that eyes witness record is Book of God,

Has anything of note happened in the last 2000 years? god might want to update his book.

dead one wrote: »

here must be somthing that caused everything to come into existence. That Something is God.

Again you are using "logic"

My favorite colour is not white therefore it must be black!, not like there could be any other options is it?

dead one wrote: »

I hope you know about cosmology that is every effect must have cause. Everything in universe is an effect,

Did you get that little nugget from the bible? if not then you better not believe it

Beruthiel

dead one wrote: »

There must be somthing that caused everything to come into existence. That Something is God.

So, because you do not know how the universe started, you'll just make something up and call it god.
I prefer to wait until I hear a scientific answer.
We do not know all the answers to everything, but we know more than we did a 100 years ago and in another 100 years, we'll know more again.
In the mean time, no need to act like a child and make something up to fill in the gaps.

robindch

clever_name wrote: »

Has anything of note happened in the last 2000 years? god might want to update his book.

I believe that dead-one holds islamic religious beliefs...

...so I'm thinking he's going to point out that god did update the bible -- to the holy koran (pbui)!

krudler

robindch wrote: »

I believe that dead-one holds islamic religious beliefs...

...so I'm thinking he's going to point out that god did update the bible -- to the holy koran (pbui)!

yahweh-pedia?

dead one

GO_Bear wrote: »

Evolution is easily testable, and observable , we can see microbes acquiring antibiotic resistance. We can also do this in the lab, and we can repeat it. Over and over and over and over and over again.

Ignorance isn't crime, antibiotic resistance is truly an example of change, but it's hardly a fact for macro evolution as bacteria remain bacteria. For survival outcome such variations in bacteria, is necessary in a clinical environment but it's not an example of beneficial mutation, If you are saying one type bacteria will change or evolve into another type than i would highly disagree based on evidence. Yes it is true bacteria can change quickly but antibiotic resistance does not demonstrate Darwinian evolution.

GO_Bear wrote: »

Religion on the other hand has shown itself to be rather untrustworthy, in both spewing nonsense, trying to spread that nonsense, and censoring things that upset that nonsense.
So no, I won't accept there is a God based on faith from these or any other people. Because that is a monumental assumption which would change everything we have observed so far.

There are many man made religion on earth, man made religion are untrustworthy because they are man made and you are assuming me christian as matter of fact i am not christian. This also shows you judge all the religions with same yardstick, By this way you can only defend your ego but can't reach truth. If you can't accept God based on faith than can you tell. The whole universe is perfect design who is it's designer, You believe it's designer was an an accident which isn't logical as accidents can't create perfect system. What an irony?

GO_Bear wrote: »

Are you kidding me ?

If my girlfriend leaves a note on my fridge telling me she will leave Ireland for ever if I do not call her by tomorrow afternoon.

If I did not see the note and she left.

I would say thats a pretty big effect.

What caused this. Was it something I did ? was it something she did ?

Was it the fact I did not see the note and could not call her that she left ?
Because if it is that scenario then I did nothing and this nothing has a pretty big effect on my life does it not ?
But all this is irrelevant because we do not know the full story, much like we do not know the full story of the cosmos. So we can postulate possible working theory's and dispense impossible illogical rhetoric

First of All there is no relation like "girl friend" in real world, Real world means "world of respect" . What cause you to have girl friend that is a life without God. Now if you are a believer you won't have girl friends. There will no note on fridge, no girl friends. No after effects, This is how you can save your life by believing in God.I can't understand your logic of girl friend which you are associating it to universe or its effects. Isn't it true that your girl friend is your universe.

GO_Bear wrote: »

No what you have is faith. Faith and a story. A badly written story which you can interpret any way that it suits you.

Faith isn't blind, Faith isn't story, Still you are assuming me christian?. My faith is based on knowledge and strong facts.

dead one

robindch wrote: »

I believe that dead-one holds islamic religious beliefs...
...so I'm thinking he's going to point out that god did update the bible -- to the holy koran (pbui)!

I also believe in bible but only that part which match with Quran because Quran testify Gospels. God sent Bible on Jesus to guide Children of Isreal. Bible was for children of Isreal and for that time period with limited laws. Quran is universal and for whole mankind. Quran teaches us bible and torah were old revelation which were sent on Jesus and Moses (PBUT).

BIBLE: God the ALL Knower

"And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered."
Matthew 10:30
"He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power his understanding has no limit."
Psalm 147:4-5
..."and his understanding no one can fathom."
Isaiah 40:28
========================================================

Qur'an: God the ALL Knower
[19:93-94] Every single one in the heavens and the earth is a servant of the Most Gracious.He has encompassed them, and has counted them one by one.
[ 3:29] Say, "Whether you conceal your innermost thought, or declare it, GOD is fully aware thereof." He is fully aware of everything in the heavens and the earth. GOD is Omnipotent.
[ 72:28] ...... He (God) has counted the numbers of all things.

dead one

Beruthiel wrote: »

So, because you do not know how the universe started, you'll just make something up and call it god.

I know how the universe started, I know it from God's words, God is older than science. I have more faith in God than science because science can be wrong but God's word can't be wrong. 60 Years ago science believed Sun was stationery but it's written in Quran 1400 Years ago that sun is moving for a fixed time period. It is also written in Quran one day Sun will stop. So point is science can be wrong.

Beruthiel wrote: »

I prefer to wait until I hear a scientific answer.

Life is too short to wait, We don't know what will happen tomorrow, Even science is still showing "There is God" who is controlling the universe with his wisdom but why we can't get that because people are selfish, if people believe "there is God", it will destroy their work, their business, their ego, their reputation etc.

Beruthiel wrote: »

We do not know all the answers to everything, but we know more than we did a 100 years ago and in another 100 years, we'll know more again.
In the mean time, no need to act like a child and make something up to fill in the gaps.

We don't know all the answer or we don't wish to know answers to every thing. Or we want to ignore answers which are written in scripture?

MagicMarker wrote:

You've officially made my ignore list.

You can ignore truth but you can't avoid it?

Improbable

dead one wrote: »

I know how the universe started, I know it from God's words, God is older than science. I have more faith in God than science because science can be wrong but God's word can't be wrong. 60 Years ago science believed Sun was stationery but it's written in Quran 1400 Years ago that sun is moving for a fixed time period. It is also written in Quran one day Sun will stop. So point is science can be wrong.

No, you do not know how the universe started. You do not know "god's" word. You may BELIEVE that you do, but that does not make it a factual statement. Nobody said that science is infallible. It simply makes a case for what the truth might be based on the best evidence that is obtainable at the time.

dead one wrote: »

Life is too short to wait, We don't know what will happen tomorrow, Even science is still showing "There is God"

No, science does not show that there is a god. Science has nothing to say about the subject one way or another. The only thing science ever disputes with regards to the supernatural, are the claims of particular religions which are empirically testable such as the age of the earth and so on.

dead one wrote: »

...but why we can't get that because people are selfish, if people believe "there is God", it will destroy their work, their business, their ego, their reputation etc.

No, it would not destroy anything to believe it. It MIGHT destroy it (which I don't believe) if they TOLD people about it. So you must think that every person on the planet really does believe in a god but that they keep it a secret...

dead one wrote: »

We don't know all the answer or we don't wish to know answers to every thing. Or we want to ignore answers which are written in scripture?

This is a retarded argument for the simple reason that it doesn't really mean anything. You could exchange the word scripture for anything you want and it would have just about the same effect with regards to convincing anyone of anything. Watch:

"We don't know all the answer or we don't wish to know answers to every thing. Or we want to ignore answers which are written in the pattern of hairs in my beard?

Not to mention the fact that all text written such a long time ago is susceptible to changes in interpretation to match the intellectual zeitgeist, censorship, copying errors, translational errors, individual and group agendas.

Let's say I just wrote a book. In this book, I claimed that the contents were relayed to me by the word of god, and that the instructions within are the will of god. Why would this be any less valid than any other religious book?

dead one

Improbable wrote: »

1. No, you do not know how the universe started. You do not know "god's" word........
2. No, science does not show that there is a god.................
3. No, it would not destroy anything to believe it..........

What does it mean, No (State of denial)!!!!. Isn't it trure??

Improbable wrote: »

No, you do not know how the universe started. You do not know "god's" word. You may BELIEVE that you do, but that does not make it a factual statement. Nobody said that science is infallible. It simply makes a case for what the truth might be based on the best evidence that is obtainable at the time.

Yes its true i am not eye witness but i am speaking on behalf of him who knows. I have evidence to feed / cloth my "knowledge". So as matter of fact if you believe in God, a lot of your time and energy will be saved, For example athiest scientific community who believe that life on earth was result of an accident and they are still strugling and wasting their time to find a chance outside earth. Yet the money which they are wasting on these wasted activity can finish poverty and hunger on earth. So belief in God which is universal fact can save a lot of your time and energy and also it can benefit inhabitants of world. There is no life of human intellectual outside the earth, Where i got this information, it is from Book of God i.e Quran. Now tell what is better option waste your time and money or unitize it for better option.

Improbable wrote: »

No, science does not show that there is a god. Science has nothing to say about the subject one way or another. The only thing science ever disputes with regards to the supernatural, are the claims of particular religions which are empirically testable such as the age of the earth and so on.

[SIZE=-1] science means "knowledge attained through study or practice,"[/SIZE] Science is tool to understand or gain greater knowledge of universe and science shows universe is perfectly designed. Just take example of solar system, How perfect your solar system is, Why earth can't leave it orbit, Much of science support existence and work of God but problem arise when thinkers / scientists hold their faith in human logic above belief/ faith in creator. They have chosen faith in human logic, So as a matter they know how to defend it. You also believe in human logic but remember human logic isn't perfect because it is limited.

Improbable wrote: »

Let's say I just wrote a book. In this book, I claimed that the contents were relayed to me by the word of god, and that the instructions within are the will of god. Why would this be any less valid than any other religious book?

simple answer is
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Will they not then, ponder over the Quran? If it were from other than God they would [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]surely have found in it much discrepancies[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]. [4:82] [/FONT]

Your book showing human work so it can easily be judged with errors and [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]discrepancies. [/FONT]Same theory applies to other books, you can test any book with above verse if book claims itself from God.

Beruthiel

dead one wrote: »

I know how the universe started, I know it from God's words

Taking the word of someone who told fables some centuries ago, isn't 'knowing' with any scientific basis in fact.

Life is too short to wait, We don't know what will happen tomorrow

And? How is that a problem?

Or we want to ignore answers which are written in scripture?

Are you not understanding me?
Words written in a book are not fact. They are stories.

Dades

dead one wrote: »

First of All there is no relation like "girl friend" in real world, Real world means "world of respect" . What cause you to have girl friend that is a life without God. Now if you are a believer you won't have girl friends. There will no note on fridge, no girl friends. No after effects, This is how you can save your life by believing in God.I can't understand your logic of girl friend which you are associating it to universe or its effects. Isn't it true that your girl friend is your universe.

I thinking you need a girlfriend. Might show you there's more to life than the suppressed scratchings of bronze age men.