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Laws Question? Ask here!

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This discussion was created from comments split from: Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen.

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JustinDee

castie wrote: »

I dont think thats quite right for the question he asked.

It doesnt matter how long they take you can only begin your run to block when the kicker starts his progression towards the ball.

If he takes longer than the regulation time then it just counts as a failed conversion.

If it has taken too long, the ref will have blown it up as so therefore the defenders will be running to block. If it has been pinged, ball is dead so its unlikely they'll be charging.

castie

JustinDee wrote: »

They can only block it.

I dont think thats quite right for the question he asked.

It doesnt matter how long they take you can only begin your run to block when the kicker starts his progression towards the ball.

If he takes longer than the regulation time then it just counts as a failed conversion.

JustinDee

Hersheys wrote: »

During a conversion if the kicker of team a takes too long, can team b come and pick up the ball and run? Or if they block it down what happens?

They can only block it.

Hersheys

During a conversion if the kicker of team a takes too long, can team b come and pick up the ball and run? Or if they block it down what happens?

castie

Brian P wrote: »

Thanks castie and Downtime.In your opinion were we fairly penalised for not releasing the player after the tackle in the earlier games?

The Maul situation doesnt actually have a tackler so I suppose it could only be hands on the deck but its usually the ball is buried and no one can get at it.

Previous games I think yes. You have to release the man before you play the ball with the new rules and at some points people looked shocked at the decision. I remember SOB doing it blatantly one game and seemed surprised he was penalised.

Brian P

castie wrote: »

The Ref has determined a maul has been formed and then the ball has become unplayable.

In this case its a scrum to the defending team.

Thanks castie and Downtime.In your opinion were we fairly penalised for not releasing the player after the tackle in the earlier games?

castie

Downtime wrote: »

Not necessarily. The defending team may have brought it into the maul. it is a scrum to the team not it possession when the maul began.

Sorry should have clarified I meant the team defending the maul. (i.e not in possession)

Downtime

castie wrote: »

The Ref has determined a maul has been formed and then the ball has become unplayable.

In this case its a scrum to the defending team.

Not necessarily. The defending team may have brought it into the maul. it is a scrum to the team not it possession when the maul began.

castie

Brian P wrote: »

Explain this to me please. Why have we successfully won scrums in our last two games by holding up a player with the ball even though everybody seems to hit the deck eventually with our lads still holding on to the opposition player. Why were we continuously penalised in our earlier games for not releasing after the tackle in very similar situations (at least to my eyes).What am I missing?:)

The Ref has determined a maul has been formed and then the ball has become unplayable.

In this case its a scrum to the defending team.

Brian P

Explain this to me please. Why have we successfully won scrums in our last two games by holding up a player with the ball even though everybody seems to hit the deck eventually with our lads still holding on to the opposition player. Why were we continuously penalised in our earlier games for not releasing after the tackle in very similar situations (at least to my eyes).What am I missing?:)

daveharnett

RuggieBear wrote: »

posted it here
I understand officials make mistakes but this was such a simple one it is mind blowing how Peter Allan got it so wrong.

Absolutely amazing. Between the flag going up and the lineout forming, the AR has ONE duty - watching the 'live' ball to determine when the quick throw is/not on.

No blame for the ref here - he is coached to backpedal to the mark so he can watch for afters on the pitch, while the AR watches the ball. After the event, I don't think the TMO was an option - there was no question about what happened in-goal.

I'd be disgusted if I did this at an U16 match. The worst officiating error I've seen in professional rugby by some bargain.

daveharnett

remwhite wrote: »

Was playing a match the other week and one of our players was trying to catch a loose pass. The ball was dropping at his feet and he just managed to get a hand to it and flick it up. He gave it a fairly substantial flick and it went about 2 meters forward an over head height but he caught it. He was away and the ref blew it up and said "ya can't do that". Never touched anything but his hands, no opposition and not the turf. Didn't matter a whole lot but am I right in saying the ref was incorrect.

Law 12(e) Intentional knock or throw forward: A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm, nor throw forward.
Sanction: Penalty kick.

'Juggling' the ball forward in an attempt to regain control is against the letter of the law.

While most refs will be sympathetic and let it go, if you end up gaining a significant advantage (sounds like your man beat a player by 'flicking' the ball forward?), you no longer get the benefit of the doubt that you were 'just' trying to regain control.

Edit: As a matter of interest, was the outcome a scrum or pk?

karlitob

castie wrote: »

For Mauls thats not true.
If its deemed a maul and it becomes unplayable.
Its a scrum to the defending side.

No, if Team A goes into a maul and it doesn't go to ground and therefore unplayable - it goes to Team B - Scrum.
Law 17.6 b and c.

If neither team is moving was moving forward, the attacking team puts in the ball. Therefore, advantage to the team moving forward.

castie

karlitob wrote: »

Do they give a penalty?

Scrum: if team A are being shoved off the ball, as the other poster rightly says, its usually an infringement. Popping up, breaking binds.

Maul: usually, this is because when team A are being pushed back, the maul collapses, the ball becomes unplayable and hasn't hit the deck. The team going forward when the ball has become unplayable gets the put in to the scrum.

Generally, advantage is given to the team going forward

For Mauls thats not true.
If its deemed a maul and it becomes unplayable.
Its a scrum to the defending side.

karlitob

defadman wrote: »

im confused with one rule! it is how come a ref will give a penalty when a team is pushing the other team back in the scrum or maul?

Do they give a penalty?

Scrum: if team A are being shoved off the ball, as the other poster rightly says, its usually an infringement. Popping up, breaking binds.

Maul: usually, this is because when team A are being pushed back, the maul collapses, the ball becomes unplayable and hasn't hit the deck. The team going forward when the ball has become unplayable gets the put in to the scrum.

Generally, advantage is given to the team going forward

karlitob

IPAM wrote: »

Thanks

I thought better to ask here than start a whole new thread for a simple
question that I would only expect 2-3 replies if even that

Its not better. Forums are for asking simple questions. Laws questions only please.

davidpfitz

RuggieBear wrote: »

Is that retreat 10m from the player towards your own line or could you move 10m laterally away from the player (but not moving towards your own line)? players appear to do and amalgamation of the two..

Towards your own line - so if you ran diagonally, you would need to cover more than 10 metres. Players try to bend the rules here by going a bit sideways and not quite 10m back.

KERSPLAT!

mikedragon32 wrote: »

Hardly a laws question. Junior leagues will finish up in the next couple of weeks or so and then the cup competitions start, when it's up to ye to determine how much longer you play!

Thanks

I thought better to ask here than start a whole new thread for a simple
question that I would only expect 2-3 replies if even that

mikedragon32

Hardly a laws question. Junior leagues will finish up in the next couple of weeks or so and then the cup competitions start, when it's up to ye to determine how much longer you play!

KERSPLAT!

I was just wondering when the Rugby leagues start and finish?

Ive only started playing (3 months) J3 and never asked the manager,

Wont be at training for a few weeks so wont get to ask either

RuggieBear

lologram wrote: »

Law 11.2 c) refers to 'Action by the kicker or other onside player'. So basically anyone who was behind (or level with) the kicker can chase forward and put players on the same team onside.

There is another thing they have to consider though. The offside players have to actively retreat 10 metres from any player on the opposing side who might try catch the ball after it's been kicked. They altered this Law to stop people just idly standing in the field and waiting to be put onside.

This is where the Law is, if you want to look at it in more detail. http://www.irblaws.com/downloads/EN/Law_11_EN.pdf

Is that retreat 10m from the player towards your own line or could you move 10m laterally away from the player (but not moving towards your own line)? players appear to do and amalgamation of the two..

lologram

newby.204 wrote: »

When a player kicks the ball he has to chase to get everyone else onside? but sometimes say ROG kicks and someone else chases? both kicks are from play but two different chasers

Law 11.2 c) refers to 'Action by the kicker or other onside player'. So basically anyone who was behind (or level with) the kicker can chase forward and put players on the same team onside.

There is another thing they have to consider though. The offside players have to actively retreat 10 metres from any player on the opposing side who might try catch the ball after it's been kicked. They altered this Law to stop people just idly standing in the field and waiting to be put onside.

This is where the Law is, if you want to look at it in more detail. http://www.irblaws.com/downloads/EN/Law_11_EN.pdf

Paulw

The kicker doesn't need to chase. Anyone behind him, when he kicks, can chase the ball.

newby.204

I'll ask for some patience with this question.

now i understand the basics of the offside rules of rugby however i have a question about the offside rule from kicks.

When a player kicks the ball he has to chase to get everyone else onside? but sometimes say ROG kicks and someone else chases? both kicks are from play but two different chasers

if anything needs to be clarified about my question feel free to tear the post apart and ill happily answer

castie

defadman wrote: »

im confused with one rule! it is how come a ref will give a penalty when a team is pushing the other team back in the scrum or maul?

Usually due to the pressure the retreating team will pop up or the scrum will fall apart.

defadman

im confused with one rule! it is how come a ref will give a penalty when a team is pushing the other team back in the scrum or maul?

RuggieBear

RuggieBear wrote: »

I'll youtube it and see what you all think. I'm slightly very biased and i could be very wrong but appears to be a shocking noncall to me.

posted it here
I understand officials make mistakes but this was such a simple one it is mind blowing how Peter Allan got it so wrong.

karlitob

castie wrote: »

Not sure about this but Phillips also joined the lineout as it was being taken which is surely illegal given the distance he traveled to recieve it.

This incident was bound to happen at some stage because ref's are not being pedantic about it.

Castie - Not sure what you mean on this.

Its a clear breach of the law.

Different ball

Different person threw it in (by definition if its a different ball)

The line-out had not formed. You need two from both sides. I'd go so far as to say that this has to clearly be a lineout. You often see from time to time teams have not quite formed a lineout and a player throws it in quickly - the ref brings it back for a set lineout.

All Phillips needed to do was be five metres back from where he receives it and the ball not to be thrown forward.

If you look at where Kaplan stands he should clearly see that its not the same ball. Very poor call.

Also, the Touch Judge brought the line-out back cos it went out of the full. He was standing in front of the ball boy who gave the hooker a new ball.

The touch judge had plenty of time to think about what happened as he ran down the line. It wasnt an on the spot decision. The ref must have thought something was up when he asked his touch judge. He had three options: accept the touch judges decision, refuse his decision and bring the lineout back or TMO. Whats the point having a TMO if this happens. As far as I know, the TMO is appropriate in this instance.

Lastly, its Ireland's fault. You get back, get set and heads up. You should never be caught on a quick lineout or quick tap. Its inexcusable.

Now as for Paddy Wallace - am I the only one who is unsure why he is an Irish international?

karlitob

Downtime wrote: »

A penalty is not a kick- off or restart kick and therefore can be marked. It does not restart the game as the game is still live during a penalty kick

Thanks Downtime. On reflection, well done, I think you're correct. Thanks for that again.

castie

Not sure about this but Phillips also joined the lineout as it was being taken which is surely illegal given the distance he traveled to recieve it.