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How to Use A Roundabout

rex-x

Modnote: Save yourself 705 posts of pain and read this post
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=70800115&postcount=706

there is a battle going on pug306.net about this question, its whether the correct lane is left or right, right is winning but to me its obviously the left please vote

Expert drivers! Roundabout question!

Firstly, sorry about the crap picture, I have to rotate it to make it clearer! If you want to see the roundabout in all its glory, look for NP20 6QB, that is the school in the top of my picture!

Right, have the following roundabout in Cwmbran, it is quite unclear! Everyone does it differently, and its like wackey races there sometimes

Going in the directions of the red arrow, there are two lanes onto the roundabout (neither lane is marked, so no specific left turn only lane) There are 3 exits, we want the 2nd one, so only one lane off.

The question is, would you be in the left hand lane, or right hand lane here?? I say right, cymraegboy says left!

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Comments

zynaps

Welease wrote: »

Well i disagree
c) overrides a) and b) because it clearly states ANY EXIT after 12..
It is an explicit statement that overrides A or B if that condition is met.. Not the other way round. The key word is Any here.. if it was "subsequent" or any other wording then i would agree.

Well, that's the problem: reasonable people disagree over an important point!

You could say that "ANY EXIT after 12 o'clock" is more general, and is overridden by the more specific rules for first and second exits.

The trouble is, there's no way to say that either way is correct. Both are fair interpretations of the ambiguous text. You could argue that the capitalised, bolded and underlined "ANY EXIT" means "this overrides other rules", but it's not really clear cut.
FWIW, I would take the right-hand lane for the OP's case anyway, as it seems more common-sense to do so. On the other hand, I use the right lane for going straight if there's no one else nearby anyway, so

BigEejit wrote: »

According to a fair proportion of the people who posted in this thread they would be in the right hand lane entering the roundabout and according to the rules the inspectors use which was posted earlier, those posters should fail.

It's not important that posters "should fail" or not. What's important is that there is this confusion due to past ambiguity of published guidelines, which would lead to apparently 50% of people being in the right lane and 50% being in the left lane. This is obviously a dangerous situation and the sooner it's remedied the better. Maybe the RSA should put out TV adverts highlighting the proper way to do it.

Technically I don't see that either rule is superior to the other. It just matters that we all use the same one, and there's a very good reason why we do not: ambiguity in published ROTR and, as a result, ambiguity from instructors. I don't recall my own instructor ever even taking me through a roundabout other than "mini" ones. :eek:

Vertakill

Welease wrote: »

I'm not saying they don't exist but can you name many large roundabouts (that you can't see the far side of), that don't have a sign showing the configuration upon approach?

I'm not sure about the signage because I wasn't originally debating that, but more the clock method.
However, the Portlaoise roundabout pops into my head because it's massive and I only took it there on the weekend for the Motors meet and you cannot see over the other side of it partcularly well if I remember correctly.

Same would go for the Kilcock roundabout.

All, I'm sure, have appropriate signage, but my point was that putting this blanket method of using 'o clock' on every single roundabout to guage your lane isn't very good because there are a variety of different sized roundabouts about the place.

dooferoaks wrote: »

Rules of the Road - Using roundabouts

IT doesn't matter the shape of the roundabout, or the geography of the exits,
Surely to fukc people can't honestly believe the Right hand lane is the correct answer, read the first couple of pages of this and got so depressed I couldn't read anymore. So if the video above has been posted already sorry.

Hahaha ...if only every roundabout had 4 perfectly symmetrical entries/exits eh?

The narrator says, left, straight and right... he couldn't be any more vague about what you should and shouldn't be doing on a roundabout.

That video is a complete cop out.

Get them to do one on the Walkinstown roundabout and we'll end every discussion there and then.

vibe666

PaddyTheNth wrote: »

It's not a rule, its an interpretation of the rules of the road. As is the numbered system.

It may be that the o'clock interpretation is a better representation of the rules of the road.

no, it's just the only interpretation of the current ROTR, as opposed to the numbered system which is incorrect and has been for at least (almost) 5 years in ireland and has never been correct anywhere else.

PaddyTheNth wrote: »

However why many people are still arguing is that there doesn't appear to be a logical reason as to why the o'clock interpretation is better (better in terms of being logical, consistent and safe for road users) than the sequential system which it has apparently replaced. (ie the law is an ass)

it's better because it was the system that was always intended as it is the same as every other country in Europe, meaning that people from the UK & Europe driving here (and visa versa) aren't going to be using the standard o'clock system and crash into someone using the (incorrect) numbered system.

the o'clock system is used simply because it is the most logical way to take account of all the possible factors on a roundabout so that everyone approaching and leaving the roundabout is able to easily follow the same set of rules to avoid anyone having an unnecessary accident because they were too busy counting exits to watch where they and everyone else on the roundabout were going.

in conjunction with the other standard rules for roundabout use it works as perfectly as possible once everyone is following the same rules, regardless of the size of the roundabout or the number of exits on it.

where there are two lanes entering a roundabout you use the left lane for anything up to and including directly opposite (and according to the RSA anything up to 1 o'clock to account for a slightly off-centre 'straight' exit) where you entered and the right lane for anything after that regardless of how many exits there are.

it's a system that works very well and has done for decades in the UK and the rest of Europe (and no doubt the rest of the world) and I have no doubt should have been implemented in Ireland from the start, but was mis-interpreted by some government lackie who couldn't wrap his head around the system and started counting exits which fluffed the whole thing up for everyone.

Triangla wrote: »

The fact that more than 50% are wrong here is not surprising. Irish are shocking on roundabouts.

did you know that you were being ironic?

zynaps wrote: »

Honestly, are you suggesting that he checks the ROTR every day for updates on rules of thumb for roundabouts? And if he doesn't he's a "muppet" who should be fired?

i'm suggesting that someone who is an official spokesperson for the Automobile Association of Ireland should know better than to write and article about people crashing on roundabouts and how terrible it is that half the people in the country don't know the correct ROTR to use on a roundabout and THEN proceed to tell people the wrong method and pass it off as the truth with an air of authority that someone in his position would command. there is a distinct possibility that people have read that article and had an accident as a result, thinking that they were doing the right thing because HE told them to. it's possible even that someone has been injured or even killed as a result and that is totally and wholly unacceptable from someone in his position and YES i stand by my previous statement that he is a muppet that shouldn't be allowed to keep his job for making a statement in his official capacity that could (and may well have already) easily result in someone being seriously injured or even killed.

it's the same old problem as in so many things, that there are a large percentage of people who think they are right about something without bothering to check whether or not they are actually doing the right thing to the point of ignoring anyone who attempts to correct them and continuing to do the wrong thing simply because it is what they have always done.

and yes, as a road user it is my, yours and everyone else's responsibility to make sure they are aware of the current ROTR and drive by them. would you expect to someone who perpetrated a crime against you to get away with it just because of a law that was only introduced 5 years ago that they claimed they didn't now about?

ignorance of any current laws or the current ROTR is no excuse when you have a personal responsibility as a citizen or road user to know the current laws/ROTR.

from the introduction page on the ROTR:

The purpose of the Rules of the Road is to save lives and prevent injury on our roads. The rules apply to all road users: drivers, pedestrians, motorcyclists, horse riders and cyclists.

The rules are written in plain English to encourage good behaviour on the road.

The rules ask us to take personal responsibility for our use of the road.

The Rules of the Road have been designed in an easy to read format. It is your responsibility to read the rules and know them.

At the back of the book is a Glossary that explains some of the terms used. The rules are also published in Irish.

The rules comply with and reflect the Road Traffic Law as at 1 March 2007.

Where planned changes in the law are known with certainty a comment is included in the appropriate section to ensure the content reflects them.

It will be important to check the relevant section of the Road Safety Authority web site www.rsa.ie for updates.

We can save lives and prevent injury by changing our behaviour. Reading these rules and applying them will help achieve this goal.

It’s our responsibility.

It's our choice.

vibe666

squod wrote: »

Passed a roundabout today with only two exits, both past twelve o'clock and two lanes leading to it! The silly gubberment should close that left hand lane obviously............... or put up a sign or all three.:rolleyes:

12 o'clock rule UNLESS road signs or markings, OR a lane blockage or Garda indicate otherwise. very simple, no room for ambiguity.

zynaps wrote: »

It's completely ambiguous. Which rule takes precedence - the 12 o'clock position or the second exit? There's no way to tell from that text.

there is no such thing as the second exit, there is no ambiguity at all. there is the left lane for the 1st exit or straight on (which may be the same thing, depending on the number of exits), or the right lane for anything to the right of straight on.

there is no 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th or nth exit at all, just anything before or after straight on.

zynaps wrote: »

No, it's not quite clearly stated.

Let's call the three rules A, B and C:
A: If leaving by the first exit, use the left-hand lane
B: If leaving by the second exit, use the left-hand lane
C: If leaving by ANY EXIT after 12 o'clock, use the right-hand lane

B: does not exist, therefore is not ambiguous at all.

BigEejit wrote: »

Answer the question I put in above:
In my diagram, if the driving test inspector asked you to take the 4th exit (not mentioning 12 o clock rule or anything, just saying "take the 4th exit"), and there were two lanes entering the roundabout .... which one would you be in when you entered the roundabout?

regardless of the number of exits, if the 4th exit is further round the roundabout than straight on and there are two lanes entering the roundabout, you should enter in the right hand lane unless the road signs/markings (or Garda) dictate otherwise.

Vertakill wrote: »

Contradictory?
The only time I can think of using a protractor on a roundabout to guage exits is when I would be using the clock face method. If you number the exits, you cannot get confused... ever.
Using the clock face method on a really large roundabout that you cannot see what's on the other side of... yeah that's not confusing at all!

it's not contradictory at all, it's very simple and works for everyone. you see the problem here is that the idea of a roundabout isn't there solely to satisfy YOUR need to negotiate a junction, it is there for ALL road users and there is a system in place that is fair to everyone entering and leaving roundabouts in the vast majority of cases throughout Europe that has been in place for decades. the fact that even after being corrected you choose to ignore that fact speaks volumes about the sort of road user you are and you don't come out in a very good light at all i'm afraid.

Vertakill wrote: »

Personally, I use the left lane for the first 2 exits and then the right lane for anything after that.

and you are wrong and if someone hits you because you were somewhere where you were not meant to be YOU will be liable. you've been told the correct way of doing it and shown that you are wrong, but like so many people you are just going to continue to do it wrong regardless of the law and the ROTR because of your "fcuk everyone else it's my road and i'll drive it however i like" attitude. people like you are exactly the reason why Ireland has such a high mortality rate on the roads and you should be ashamed of yourself, cop on.

Vertakill wrote: »

I don't like the idea of getting into the left hand lane and passing 4 or 5 exits without actually taking them solely on the basis that they occured before I hit the 12 o clock point.

i don't like the idea of having to drive on the roads with so many people unable to follow a basic system for driving on them, but sometimes we have to do things we don't like, it's called life.

Vertakill wrote: »

If someone is travelling on the inside lane parallel to you and they're taking the 3 o clock exit, they may need to exit the roundabout while you're plodding along in their way, passing a multitude of exits in the outter lane.

which is why the ROTR clearly state:

Drivers should make themselves aware of the road markings and get into the appropriate lane when safe to do so, remembering to show consideration to other users of the road and in the interest of road safety, yield when necessary.

"show consideration to other users of the road" appears to be about as popular in ireland as indicators on a BMW. :rolleyes:

rickyjb

What the hell is this 12 o'clock rubbish everyone keeps going on about, I did my test three years ago and I've never heard of it. If you're taking the 2nd exit on a 4 lane roundabout the correct approach lane is the left hand lane. It doesn't matter what time it is!!:pac:

vibe666

dooferoaks wrote: »

Rules of the Road - Using roundabouts

IT doesn't matter the shape of the roundabout, or the geography of the exits,
Surely to fukc people can't honestly believe the Right hand lane is the correct answer, read the first couple of pages of this and got so depressed I couldn't read anymore. So if the video above has been posted already sorry.

congratulations, add this to your list of things you failed.

the right hand lane is the correct lane as has been proven several times on the thread, if you'd bothered to read it before you got bored and made a fool of yourself.

rickyjb wrote: »

What the hell is this 12 o'clock rubbish everyone keeps going on about, I did my test three years ago and I've never heard of it. If you're taking the 2nd exit on a 4 lane roundabout the correct approach lane is the left hand lane. It doesn't matter what time it is!!:pac:

the 12 o'clock rule is a method to help people to remember how to correctly negotiate a roundabout.

if all roundabouts were perfect circles with only 4 equidistant exits then the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th exit rule would be sufficient. the problem is that they are not and a system had to be employed to take account of this that would work equally well regardless of the shape or number of exits on any given roundabout

the 'system' itself is, where there are two lanes coming onto a roundabout (unless road marking, a blocked lane or the garda tell you otherwise) you use the left lane for anything up to and including directly opposite where you entered the roundabout and the right hand lane for anything after that.

the 12 o'clock rule is just a simple visual way of explaining that that so that even a complete moron can understand it without burning out their brain cells, although i'm starting to have my doubts about that as of today.

where any roundabout is too big to see your exit as you approach, large signs depicting the exits are erected for you to check as you approach to ensure you have plenty of room to pick the correct lane for your exit.

Welease

Vertakill wrote: »

I'm not sure about the signage because I wasn't originally debating that, but more the clock method.
However, the Portlaoise roundabout pops into my head because it's massive and I only took it there on the weekend for the Motors meet and you cannot see over the other side of it partcularly well if I remember correctly.

Same would go for the Kilcock roundabout.

All, I'm sure, have appropriate signage, but my point was that putting this blanket method of using 'o clock' on every single roundabout to guage your lane isn't very good because there are a variety of different sized roundabouts about the place.

But thats the point

I have just driven across the Kilcock (M4) roundabout 30 mins ago.. Each and every entry onto that roundabout has clear signage showing exactly where the exits are.. So it's somewhat irrelevant that you can't see them, if you look at the sign on approach (and they are 20ft high

) you know exactly which lane to be in if you know the rules of the road.

Welease

rickyjb wrote: »

What the hell is this 12 o'clock rubbish everyone keeps going on about, I did my test three years ago and I've never heard of it. If you're taking the 2nd exit on a 4 lane roundabout the correct approach lane is the left hand lane. It doesn't matter what time it is!!:pac:

Not 100% true.. if the 2nd exit is past 12 o clock (as in the rules of the road).. the correct lane is the right hand lane..

Vertakill

vibe666 wrote: »

12 o'clock rule UNLESS road signs or markings, OR a lane blockage or Garda indicate otherwise. very simple, no room for ambiguity.

The RotR don't even explain the 'blockage' at all. A blockage could mean a car broke down or it could mean a build up of traffic.
No ambiguity there at all!

vibe666 wrote: »

it's not contradictory at all, it's very simple and works for everyone. you see the problem here is that the idea of a roundabout isn't there solely to satisfy YOUR need to negotiate a junction, it is there for ALL road users and there is a system in place that is fair to everyone entering and leaving roundabouts in the vast majority of cases throughout Europe that has been in place for decades. the fact that even after being corrected you choose to ignore that fact speaks volumes about the sort of road user you are and you don't come out in a very good light at all i'm afraid.

Ironically, I could flip that paragraph back at you and about 50% of the people here would probably agree with me according to the poll.

vibe666 wrote: »

you've been told the correct way of doing it and shown that you are wrong, but like so many people you are just going to continue to do it wrong regardless of the law and the ROTR because of your "fcuk everyone else it's my road and i'll drive it however i like" attitude. people like you are exactly the reason why Ireland has such a high mortality rate on the roads and you should be ashamed of yourself, cop on.

Firstly, you don't know me whatsoever so I don't think you're in any position to call into question my attitude toward the laws of the road or other road users.
I don't follow the INCREDIBLY vague method on the RSA website because it doesn't cover every scenario.
Instead, I follow the method that my driving instructor taught me and the one that I also deem the safest.
The same method that I then used in my driving test where I passed, first time, without a single blemish in the roundabout category on a route that has about 8 roundabouts.

redz11

Vertakill wrote: »

I don't follow the INCREDIBLY vague method on the RSA website because it doesn't cover every scenario.

There is nothing vague about it.

I'm not going to add more links, because there are plenty of links already on this thread stating that, if you're going right, you use the right lane of the roundabout. No mention of the number of exits whatsoever.

The use of a clock face is supposed to make it clearer just exactly what "right" means. It's really really simple. You're coming from six o clock, visualise twelve o clock as being straight ahead. If you are going to an exit that's "later" than twelve o clock, e.g. one o clock or two o clock etc, you use the right lane.

You don't even have to use the twelve o clock rule if you don't want to. It's just simple. If you're approching a roundabout, you'll be heading either left, straight, or right when you leave it. If you plan to head left or straight, use the left lane. If you plan to head right, use the right lane.

I don't know, plenty of posters have already explained clearly and logically, with lots of back-up, exactly why the right lane is the correct lane to take in this case. I really, really don't understand how some people are just not getting it.

Vertakill wrote: »

Instead, I follow the method that my driving instructor taught me and the one that I also deem the safest.
The same method that I then used in my driving test where I passed, first time, without a single blemish in the roundabout category on a route that has about 8 roundabouts.

And were these standard roundabouts with four exits/entrances at equal angles to each other? Because then it's completely irrelevant.

And even if they weren't and you took the wrong lane and were lucky enough not to be marked down for it, I'll still take the rules of the road (as backed up by an e-mail from the RSA here) over your own anecdotal "evidence".

redz11

Also, I know that this was already linked to, but just in case anyone missed it, it's the RSA's guidelines for driving testers.

From Page Six:

"Where an applicant intends to take any exit in the 6 o’clock to 12 o’clock position, subject to road markings, the approach should normally be in the left-hand lane.
The approach should normally be in the right-hand lane for any exit after the 12 o’clock position, or a fault may be recorded for ‘Position at Roundabouts’."

You can't get much clearer than that.

Vertakill

redz11 wrote: »

There is nothing vague about it.

I'm not going to add more links, because there are plenty of links already on this thread stating that, if you're going right, you use the right lane of the roundabout. No mention of the number of exits whatsoever.

I don't see a mention of a clock face in recent documentation either to be honest...
And as I said earlier, the RSA's video and diagram of the roundabout is of a 4 exit roundabout that's completely symmetrical... which does not make up every scenario.

redz11 wrote: »

The use of a clock face is supposed to make it clearer just exactly what "right" means. It's really really simple. You're coming from six o clock, visualise twelve o clock as being straight ahead. If you are going to an exit that's "later" than twelve o clock, e.g. one o clock or two o clock etc, you use the right lane.

Again, I've already made my point regarding this. I don't need to visualise anything. I know how a clock works.. :pac:
I completely understand the method that you and other people are explaining about any exit after 12 o clock and so on...
We're not debating whether I understand that or not.

I'm debating that, as of 4 years ago, that is not how roundabout usage is taught. I can't vouch for 5+ years ago as I wasn't driving back then.

redz11 wrote: »

You don't even have to use the twelve o clock rule if you don't want to. It's just simple. If you're approching a roundabout, you'll be heading either left, straight, or right when you leave it. If you plan to head left or straight, use the left lane. If you plan to head right, use the right lane.

Here we go again... when you're approaching a roundabout, there may be 2 exits on your immediate left, 2 directly straight ahead, and 2 directly on your right.... when you say 'You're either going left, straight or right...' - which one of these exits are you referring to?
This is my point - using left, straight, right is too simplistic for most roundabouts... hence calling the exits 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th... can't exactly go wrong or get confused when you're counting upwards can you?

redz11 wrote: »

I don't know, plenty of posters have already explained clearly and logically, with lots of back-up, exactly why the right lane is the correct lane to take in this case. I really, really don't understand how some people are just not getting it.

Show me one poster that conclusively explains how all roundabouts works that ends all debates and confusion... please.

redz11 wrote: »

And were these standard roundabouts with four exits/entrances at equal angles to each other? Because then it's completely irrelevant.

They were a multitude of different roundabouts like you experience in the real world, as opposed to the lovely symmetrical ones you and the RSA keep talking about.

zynaps

vibe666 wrote: »

there is no such thing as the second exit, there is no ambiguity at all. there is the left lane for the 1st exit or straight on (which may be the same thing, depending on the number of exits), or the right lane for anything to the right of straight on.

there is no 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th or nth exit at all, just anything before or after straight on.
[...]
B: does not exist, therefore is not ambiguous at all.

What are you talking about? The ROTR which I linked to earlier had a "left lane for 2nd exit" rule which is the source of the confusion 50% of drivers have about which lane to take on a roundabout.
Now they've fixed the problem, but anyone who learned to drive before 3 or 4 years ago would have faced these ambiguous guidelines in the ROTR.
And, as I've mentioned already, a large number of driving instruction websites still parrot these rules and, presumably, still teach learner drivers to take the left lane for 2nd exits.

vibe666 wrote: »

the fact that even after being corrected you choose to ignore that fact speaks volumes about the sort of road user you are and you don't come out in a very good light at all i'm afraid.
[...]
people like you are exactly the reason why Ireland has such a high mortality rate on the roads and you should be ashamed of yourself, cop on.
[...]
the right hand lane is the correct lane as has been proven several times on the thread, if you'd bothered to read it before you got bored and made a fool of yourself.

Can we have this discussion without attacking everybody?

vibe666

Vertakill wrote: »

The RotR don't even explain the 'blockage' at all. A blockage could mean a car broke down or it could mean a build up of traffic.
No ambiguity there at all!

a build up of traffic is not a blockage. if traffic has built up then you get in the correct lane and queue up with everyone else, very simple and still ZERO ambiguity. plenty of pedantry, but no ambiguity whatsoever. :rolleyes:

Vertakill wrote: »

Ironically, I could flip that paragraph back at you and about 50% of the people here would probably agree with me according to the poll.

and even more ironically, the same 50% would still be wrong. flip it whichever way you want, the current ROTR are plenty clear enough to anyone willing to read them and change their bad habits accordingly.

Vertakill wrote: »

Firstly, you don't know me whatsoever so I don't think you're in any position to call into question my attitude toward the laws of the road or other road users.

I (and everyone else on this forum) am in a perfect position to question your attitude because you have been corrected on your ignorance and yet you have already clearly stated that you fully intend to ignore the correct rules of the road in favour of a method simply because YOU think it's better, regardless of what is actually right according to the ROTR.

Vertakill wrote: »

I don't follow the INCREDIBLY vague method on the RSA website because it doesn't cover every scenario.

yes it does, as has already been stated DOZENS of times at this stage. your inability to accept this is the only thing standing in your way of correctly negotiating roundabouts.

Vertakill wrote: »

Instead, I follow the method that my driving instructor taught me and the one that I also deem the safest.

and if your driving instructor taught you to drive off cliffs would you do that too? :rolleyes:

again with the "YOU". this has feck all to do with YOU, this is about ALL road users and the ROTR state that you should do it a particular way which (again) has already been pointed out to you dozens of times is the safest and most consistent way for EVERYONE to follow to use a roundabout with the minimum amount of fuss regardless of the size or shape of the roundabout and the number or position of the exits.

the FACTS still stand that you are wrong and have shown multiple times to be wrong and are stubbornly refusing to accept it and are willing to put lives in danger because you just can't admit that you might not be right about something. something like that speaks volumes about a person.

Vertakill wrote: »

The same method that I then used in my driving test where I passed, first time, without a single blemish in the roundabout category on a route that has about 8 roundabouts.

and when was that and what roundabouts exactly?

there's plenty of roundabouts out there where the method you are currently using will work safely and without contradicting the correct method, so that is meaningless.

there are millions more roundabouts in the UK and the rest of Europe and millions more people using them than in Ireland and they have been using the correct method on all of them for decades with very little issues compared to irish roads. what are you going to do if you are ever driving in the UK or Europe? will you continue to use your incorrect method there or will you use the correct method because i guarantee you that if you do it there, you'll get pulled over for it sooner or later if the police see you doing it.

Where To

I always assumed that a large proportion of irish drivers didn't know/weren't taught how to properly negotiate a roundabout

But almost FIFTY PERCENT???:eek:

Truly shocking

vibe666

Vertakill wrote: »

I don't see a mention of a clock face in recent documentation either to be honest...
And as I said earlier, the RSA's video and diagram of the roundabout is of a 4 exit roundabout that's completely symmetrical... which does not make up every scenario.

see the post before yours, yes it does and its not the first time it's been posted, but it keeps getting ignored. this is the documentation written for the people who you take your driving test with, even if nobody else in the country knew the correct ROTR, these are the guys that would and you should be listening to them, even if you choose to ignore the rest of us.

Vertakill wrote: »

Again, I've already made my point regarding this. I don't need to visualise anything. I know how a clock works.. :pac:
I completely understand the method that you and other people are explaining about any exit after 12 o clock and so on...
We're not debating whether I understand that or not.

its funny though, because you keep saying you understand it, but then keep getting it wrong, which i'd have to assume you are doing on purpose at this stage since you've been told over and over again. is there ever a point when you will admit you are wrong, or do you intend to keep pretending otherwise indefinitely?

Vertakill wrote: »

I'm debating that, as of 4 years ago, that is not how roundabout usage is taught. I can't vouch for 5+ years ago as I wasn't driving back then.

i linked to a PDF document of the ROTR from October 2006 in which showed the same (current) ROTR regarding roundabouts. did you take your test before October 2006 as that is 4 years & 9 months ago so it could be either way tbh, but it doesn' change the fact that the ROTR are revised from time to time and you are just as responsible as the rest of us for ensuring your ROTR knowledge is kept up to date.

Vertakill wrote: »

Here we go again... when you're approaching a roundabout, there may be 2 exits on your immediate left, 2 directly straight ahead, and 2 directly on your right.... when you say 'You're either going left, straight or right...' - which one of these exits are you referring to?
This is my point - using left, straight, right is too simplistic for most roundabouts... hence calling the exits 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th... can't exactly go wrong or get confused when you're counting upwards can you?

left right & straight is perfect for most roundabouts because there is very little ambiguity at all, despite what you seem to think. all you have to do is imagine that the roundabout isn't there and if you need to turn left, right or go straight on, you pick the correct lane. very simple for anyone to follow and as i've already said repeatedly, the same system used everywhere else you are likely to drive other than ireland.

Vertakill wrote: »

Show me one poster that conclusively explains how all roundabouts works that ends all debates and confusion... please.

They were a multitude of different roundabouts like you experience in the real world, as opposed to the lovely symmetrical ones you and the RSA keep talking about.

yes, me. suck it up and admit you are wrong because you are just digging a bigger hole for yourself.

show me ANY roundabout at all and i can tell you right away which lane is correct for each exit because there is a very simple to understand system which works for everyone.

zynaps wrote: »

What are you talking about? The ROTR which I linked to earlier had a "left lane for 2nd exit" rule which is the source of the confusion 50% of drivers have about which lane to take on a roundabout.
Now they've fixed the problem, but anyone who learned to drive before 3 or 4 years ago would have faced these ambiguous guidelines in the ROTR.
And, as I've mentioned already, a large number of driving instruction websites still parrot these rules and, presumably, still teach learner drivers to take the left lane for 2nd exits.

the current ROTR says 1st, straight & right. anything other than that is irrelevant as it is quite simply wrong.

zynaps wrote: »

Can we have this discussion without attacking everybody?

i see no problem in attacking the intended actions of someone who plans to use feigned ignorance of the ROTR to willfully drive dangerously and put the lives of other road users at risk.

if someone wanted to run around a shopping centre waving a sword around because someone else had told them (incorrectly, obviously) that it was the right thing to do would anyone have any problem calling their actions idiotic?

Welease

zynaps wrote: »

What are you talking about? The ROTR which I linked to earlier had a "left lane for 2nd exit" rule which is the source of the confusion 50% of drivers have about which lane to take on a roundabout.
Now they've fixed the problem, but anyone who learned to drive before 3 or 4 years ago would have faced these ambiguous guidelines in the ROTR.
And, as I've mentioned already, a large number of driving instruction websites still parrot these rules and, presumably, still teach learner drivers to take the left lane for 2nd exits.

But

(and I know you have stated you would go right).. that doesn't mean that those who have chosen left, and continue to argue that the left lane is the right choice, are correct.. They are still incorrect, and should now be aware of the correct procedure.. However, there does seem to be a large amount of.. I'll still continue to do it my way regardless, which is somewhat worrying..

zynaps wrote: »

Can we have this discussion without attacking everybody?

Agreed.

PaddyTheNth

vibe666 wrote: »

no, it's just the only interpretation of the current ROTR

No, it's the interpretation being currently distributed (in some of its literature) by the RSA. There are many potential interpretations. You did notice that I said it may well be a more fitting interpretation than the sequential system, even if that is only because the rules of the road are not phrased in a way such as to clearly address all situations.

vibe666 wrote: »

it's better because it was the system that was always intended as it is the same as every other country in Europe, meaning that people from the UK & Europe driving here (and visa versa) aren't going to be using the standard o'clock system and crash into someone using the (incorrect) numbered system.

How do you know this?

vibe666 wrote: »

the o'clock system is used simply because it is the most logical way to take account of all the possible factors on a roundabout so that everyone approaching and leaving the roundabout is able to easily follow the same set of rules to avoid anyone having an unnecessary accident because they were too busy counting exits to watch where they and everyone else on the roundabout were going.

in conjunction with the other standard rules for roundabout use it works as perfectly as possible once everyone is following the same rules, regardless of the size of the roundabout or the number of exits on it.

Does all possible factors include being unable to see whether the second exit is at 11 o'clock or at 1 o'clock when you enter the roundabout? And that if I am taking the second exit relative to my entrance I am going to have to vary whether I enter in the left or the right lane depending on which entrance I take? And that in some roundabouts according to your rules the left entrance lane should never be used? Why introduce such inconsistency?

vibe666 wrote: »

12 o'clock rule UNLESS road signs or markings, OR a lane blockage or Garda indicate otherwise. very simple, no room for ambiguity.

there is no such thing as the second exit, there is no ambiguity at all. there is the left lane for the 1st exit or straight on (which may be the same thing, depending on the number of exits), or the right lane for anything to the right of straight on.

Actually the October 2006 document which you linked only explicitly instructs use of the right lane if you are taking the last exit or doing a full circle.

vibe666 wrote: »

if all roundabouts were perfect circles with only 4 equidistant exits then the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th exit rule would be sufficient. the problem is that they are not and a system had to be employed to take account of this that would work equally well regardless of the shape or number of exits on any given roundabout

Can you clarify this and show a situation where the clock method works better than the sequential method?

vibe666 wrote: »

where any roundabout is too big to see your exit as you approach, large signs depicting the exits are erected for you to check as you approach to ensure you have plenty of room to pick the correct lane for your exit.

Ideally yes, but unfortunately this doesn't always happen.

LordSutch

Looking at the aerial picture, I would say RIGHT hand lane.

Slick50

Well whatever about any previous ambiguity, the most recent rules that I can find on-line don't mention clocks or number systems. From 2007, http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/junctions-roundabouts/roundabouts.html . Although they couldn't avoid using the phrase "first exit" completely.
I stand corrected, but have been driving as I was trained, and passed my test first time, "Anything after straight on is righthand lane from now on."

vibe666

PaddyTheNth wrote: »

No, it's the interpretation being currently distributed (in some of its literature) by the RSA. There are many potential interpretations. You did notice that I said it may well be a more fitting interpretation than the sequential system, even if that is only because the rules of the road are not phrased in a way such as to clearly address all situations.

How do you know this?

simply because it is the way it has been taught to every other driver in every other country in Europe for decades and the way that everyone else knows how to do it. or do you think someone decided that it would be a lot better for the writers of irish roundabout law to just throw out the existing system everyone else was using altogether and purposely invent their own system which would contradict the existing system and cause foreigners driving in ireland and irish people driving in foreign countries (including the north where they would be using the UK system) to have accidents?

PaddyTheNth wrote: »

Does all possible factors include being unable to see whether the second exit is at 11 o'clock or at 1 o'clock when you enter the roundabout? And that if I am taking the second exit relative to my entrance I am going to have to vary whether I enter in the left or the right lane depending on which entrance I take? And that in some roundabouts according to your rules the left entrance lane should never be used? Why introduce such inconsistency?

yes it does and it does it very simply if you'd been paying any attention at all. :rolleyes:

any roundabout small enough for you to see around will be very obvious and any roundabout of sufficient size that you can't will have a big 20 foot sign a good distance before it clearly marking each exit, where it leads to and it's position relative to YOUR position as you enter the roundabout making it a very very simple process for you to ensure you are in the correct lane in good time before you get to the roundabout.

PaddyTheNth wrote: »

Actually the October 2006 document which you linked only explicitly instructs use of the right lane if you are taking the last exit or doing a full circle.

again trying to pick tiny holes in an argument that you have already lost long ago in the vain hope of trying to win back some kind of credability rather than just growing a pair and admitting that you are wrong. :rolleyes:

copy/pasted directly from page 64 of the document i posted a link to that you referenced.

When taking any intermediate exit
• do not signal on approach to the roundabout,
• select the appropriate lane on approach to and on the roundabout, signalling as necessary,
• stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout,
• signal your intention and move accordingly after you have passed the exit before the one you want,
• check for traffic on your left,
• leave the roundabout.

it also has this pretty little picture which clearly shows a slightly non-standard roundabout with the correct lane use for each exit which nicely illustrates my point.

that said, it is still an incomplete draft document, which i was just using to point out that the previous document that had been posted dated may 2006 with the incorrect system in it had been completely revised to exclude that system.

PaddyTheNth wrote: »

Can you clarify this and show a situation where the clock method works better than the sequential method?

yes, all of them simply (even if for nothing else) that it is the standard system used everywhere else that has been in use for decades and to use a different system in a country physically attached to the north of ireland (using the standard UK 12 o'clock system) and with a large immigrant population also using the standard system AND with a large emigrant irish population is lunacy.

PaddyTheNth wrote: »

Ideally yes, but unfortunately this doesn't always happen.

show me somewhere it doesn't always happen because i can't think of anywhere and as someone who learnt to drive in the UK (where it's taught properly) and has driven many hundreds of thousands of miles in at least (to the best of my memory) 9 European countries plus two outside of Europe and has been using the correct method for negotiating roundabouts for the 17 years since I passed my driving test i'm pretty sure I would have noticed.

Vertakill

vibe666 wrote: »

yes it does, as has already been stated DOZENS of times at this stage. your inability to accept this is the only thing standing in your way of correctly negotiating roundabouts.

Just because someone states something is fact dozens of times does not mean they're correct. Much like your argument here in fact.

vibe666 wrote: »

and if your driving instructor taught you to drive off cliffs would you do that too? :rolleyes:

vibe666 wrote: »

if someone wanted to run around a shopping centre waving a sword around because someone else had told them (incorrectly, obviously) that it was the right thing to do would anyone have any problem calling their actions idiotic?

Are we honestly resorting to this?
And you accused me of pedantry?

vibe666 wrote: »

see the post before yours, yes it does and its not the first time it's been posted, but it keeps getting ignored. this is the documentation written for the people who you take your driving test with, even if nobody else in the country knew the correct ROTR, these are the guys that would and you should be listening to them, even if you choose to ignore the rest of us.

And you don't think driving instructors follow these guidelines also? That's 2 consecutive instructors very recently, one private and one government employed, saying the same thing as me.

vibe666 wrote: »

its funny though, because you keep saying you understand it, but then keep getting it wrong, which i'd have to assume you are doing on purpose at this stage since you've been told over and over again. is there ever a point when you will admit you are wrong, or do you intend to keep pretending otherwise indefinitely?

Eh? I never even tried explaining the method you're touting. I just said I understood it, which I do... I just don't follow it because I was taught something slightly different.

vibe666 wrote: »

left right & straight is perfect for most roundabouts because there is very little ambiguity at all, despite what you seem to think.

I hate repeating myself. Not every roundabout has a simple left, straight and right. There are plenty roundabouts that are not identical to the one in the RSA video which you claim is 100% conclusive.

A large point I'm making here is that the RSA's instructions are not conclusive.

vibe666 wrote: »

show me ANY roundabout at all and i can tell you right away which lane is correct for each exit because there is a very simple to understand system which works for everyone.

Lol... really? I could tell you right away which lane I think is correct as well! Funny that isn't it?

vibe666 wrote: »

the current ROTR says 1st, straight & right. anything other than that is irrelevant as it is quite simply wrong.

Debating at it's very best!

vibe666 wrote: »

i see no problem in attacking the intended actions of someone who plans to use feigned ignorance of the ROTR to willfully drive dangerously and put the lives of other road users at risk.

Yes and I regularly drive backwards around roundabouts in a JCB... showing reckless abandon for proper lane usage as well!!!!!
Get a grip man. In 90% of situations, I would be using the exact same lines as you - whether I like it or not.

PaddyTheNth wrote: »

Does all possible factors include being unable to see whether the second exit is at 11 o'clock or at 1 o'clock when you enter the roundabout? And that if I am taking the second exit relative to my entrance I am going to have to vary whether I enter in the left or the right lane depending on which entrance I take? And that in some roundabouts according to your rules the left entrance lane should never be used? Why introduce such inconsistency?

This was more or less the point I was trying to make earlier regarding the large roundabouts and not knowing, preemptively, what lane you should be in because you don't know where your exit is.
There is far more factors, ambiguity and inconsistencies in that method.

I'll leave the rest of this debate until tomorrow. I'd rather not spend my spare time on here!

vibe666

Vertakill wrote: »

And you don't think driving instructors follow these guidelines also? That's 2 consecutive instructors very recently, one private and one government employed, saying the same thing as me.

Eh? I never even tried explaining the method you're touting. I just said I understood it, which I do... I just don't follow it because I was taught something slightly different.

I hate repeating myself. Not every roundabout has a simple left, straight and right. There are plenty roundabouts that are not identical to the one in the RSA video which you claim is 100% conclusive.

A large point I'm making here is that the RSA's instructions are not conclusive.

Lol... really? I could tell you right away which lane I think is correct as well! Funny that isn't it?

Debating at it's very best!

Yes and I regularly drive backwards around roundabouts in a JCB... showing reckless abandon for proper lane usage as well!!!!!
Get a grip man. In 90% of situations, I would be using the exact same lines as you - whether I like it or not.

and yet despite all this you are still 100% totally and utterly wrong and have been shown as such time and time again with links to the current and past ROTR going back 5 years, links to the criteria used by driving testers in Ireland a thread with an official response directly from a spokesperson (and someone who supervises driving testers) from the RSA themselves.

i'm not 'touting' anything, i have clearly stated the correct use of roundabouts in Ireland (and everywhere else) and explained that you and people like you are putting other road users at risk by ignoring them in favour of an incorrect and outdated system which never should have been used in the first place.

there simply is no debate, you are wrong and have been repeatedly shown incontrovertible proof of the fact that you and the rest of the 'lefties' are wrong you need to accept it instead of trying to blindly pretend otherwise out of some kind of misplaced bravado that prevents you from admitting your mistakes and as a result, putting other road users at risk.

and you didn't answer my previous question about how you intend to negotiate roundabouts if you are ever in the UK or anywhere else in Europe where they have been using the correct system for decades?

Vertakill wrote: »

This was more or less the point I was trying to make earlier regarding the large roundabouts and not knowing, preemptively, what lane you should be in because you don't know where your exit is.
There is far more factors, ambiguity and inconsistencies in that method.

i'll use small words as the big ones still seem to be causing issues. :rolleyes:

little roundabout = line of sight
big roundabout = big sign before you get there

it's not complicated at all and anyone who still can't understand such a basic concept needs to hand back their driving licence right away.

Caliden

Going off the sign on the approach to the roundabout - HERE - I would confidently go with right lane.

At the end of the day irresective of the lane decision, if you're wreckless (don't indicate/check mirrors or blindspots, unaware of your surroundings as you exit the roundabout) and crash then it says alot about you as a driver.

**Timbuk2**

The RSA have responded to an e-mail indicating that in cases like this, the right lane is correct.
The RSA advice the driving testers to use the clock-face rule.
The clock-face rule works for EVERY roundabout, regardless of layout - whereas the exit number rule is only logical for 'textbook' 4-exit roundabouts, shaped like a plus sign.

Forget about quoting random bits from the ROR and trying to swing it into your favour. Think about WHY you are doing something. For those that say Left Hand Lane, why do you think this is right?

Imagine a roundabout consisting of an entry road, to the left a slip road off the motorway, and to the right a slip road onto the motorway. Technically the first exit is going right, and the second exit is going back the way you came. However, you surely cannot think that being in the left lane to turn back the way you came is correct?

For those that say Left Hand Lane - Driving is a constant learning experience. Learn from your misunderstanding, think about why the Right Lane makes more sense, and move on. It's stubborn drivers that "have been doing it for years" that refuse to admit that what they're doing isn't correct that is causing a danger on roundabouts.

L-M

It's no wonder half the people in this country can't use roundabouts :rolleyes:

Absurdum

Caliden wrote: »

At the end of the day irresective of the lane decision, if you're wreckless (don't indicate/check mirrors or blindspots, unaware of your surroundings as you exit the roundabout) and crash then it says alot about you as a driver.

amen to that

BigEejit

vibe666 wrote: »

regardless of the number of exits, if the 4th exit is further round the roundabout than straight on and there are two lanes entering the roundabout, you should enter in the right hand lane unless the road signs/markings (or Garda) dictate otherwise.

I know, I was just trying to show the foolishness of saying exits 1 and 2 are left lane and anything else is right lane. Unfortunately it seems to have confused the number people.:pac:

rex-x

Limerick man wrote: »

It's no wonder half the people in this country can't use roundabouts :rolleyes:

the biggest problem is the education, i was educated and passed my test on it beign the left lane and others were educated on the right one hence the trauma this has given to 4 forums now :eek:

the issue with this one as has been proven on other forums is the exit is bang on 12 oc but people are confused by the sign and the angle the road leaves at i'v been loling alot at some of the arguments but wont put forward one here as there is ongoing debate on a number of other places

corktina

**Timbuk2** wrote: »

The RSA have responded to an e-mail indicating that in cases like this, the right lane is correct.
The RSA advice the driving testers to use the clock-face rule.
The clock-face rule works for EVERY roundabout, regardless of layout - whereas the exit number rule is only logical for 'textbook' 4-exit roundabouts, shaped like a plus sign.

Forget about quoting random bits from the ROR and trying to swing it into your favour. Think about WHY you are doing something. For those that say Left Hand Lane, why do you think this is right?

Imagine a roundabout consisting of an entry road, to the left a slip road off the motorway, and to the right a slip road onto the motorway. Technically the first exit is going right, and the second exit is going back the way you came. However, you surely cannot think that being in the left lane to turn back the way you came is correct?

For those that say Left Hand Lane - Driving is a constant learning experience. Learn from your misunderstanding, think about why the Right Lane makes more sense, and move on. It's stubborn drivers that "have been doing it for years" that refuse to admit that what they're doing isn't correct that is causing a danger on roundabouts.

What an excellent post...will it make any difference though and will anyone be (wo)man enough to come on and admit they have had to change their opinion?
To turn right you need the righht hand lane is what it boils down to...