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Child Item

Mother died of hypothermia after council turned heat off

JONJO THE MISER

:mad:http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0129/1224288526625.html
I have never before heard of the likes of this, basically someone needs to be done for manslaughter.

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TeddyTedson

They shouldn't be allowed to turn peoples heat off during Winter.

mickoneill30

It is terrible that she died of hypothermia but it's not totally the councils fault. People need to be able to look after themselves to a certain extent. This doesn't seem to be the case here.
Simple options like staying at her mothers or staying at a friends or getting a couple of hot water bottles weren't used. What did people do before central heating was introduced about 30 years ago?

Other options like calling for help by phone or go to a neighbour weren't used either. I don't know, but I don't think hypothermia is a quick killer so she could have been there several hours while help was available.

She brought her kids to her mothers and told her that her phone would be off. Like the guys mentioned above depression seems like it may have been a factor.

mickydoomsux

This all seems very fishy.

This woman was either a willing victim of our culture of helplessness or she was trying to kill herself.

No one stays in their house during an unprecendented cold-snap after being told beforehand that the heating will be off. Her ditching the kids is odd as well.

Jumpy

I think it needs to be made clear that you do not feel yourself getting hypothermia. By the time you would normally realise something is wrong, your brain would be incapable of processing it properly. It takes another person to recognise hypothermia symptoms.
Also in later stages you would not be protecting yourself due to the fact that you would actually feel overheated.

People do not commit suicide by inducing hypothermia.

It does not take artic conditions for someone to die of this. It is entirely possible she went to sleep and simply didnt wake up.

upandcumming

Jumpy wrote: »

I think it needs to be made clear that you do not feel yourself getting hypothermia. By the time you would normally realise something is wrong, your brain would be incapable of processing it properly. It takes another person to recognise hypothermia symptoms.
Also in later stages you would not be protecting yourself due to the fact that you would actually feel overheated.

People do not commit suicide by inducing hypothermia.

It does not take artic conditions for someone to die of this. It is entirely possible she went to sleep and simply didnt wake up.

Point taken, but would she not have said at one point, "Fuck, this is fierce cold, I'll get a coffee or go to my friend's house."

Caoimhín

Would it be cold hearted to suggest that if she had no obvious physical or psychological problems, why is it societies responsibility to keep her warm?

Run_to_da_hills

RIP.

Prison sentences for manslaughter should be handed down to those responsible.

mickydoomsux

Caoimhín wrote: »

Would it be cold hearted to suggest that if she had no obvious physical or psychological problems, why is it societies responsibility to keep her warm?

As i said before, our culture of helplessness.

maringo

So sorry to read of the tragic death of this young mother from hypothermia in her home. Her family must be devastated.

I'm sure when she decided to stay in her flat herself that night she didn't think she would lose her life. Fear of her home being broken into and wrecked might have made her stay there despite the freezing conditions especially as most of the flats seem to be unlived in. Its a shocking indictment of how people are treated by uncaring officialdom and so sad that these two little boys will have to grow up without their mother.

Caoimhín

maringo wrote: »

Its a shocking indictment of how people are treated by uncaring officialdom

Well what would you suggest then? Maybe employ a public servant of sorts to visit peoples house every night to make sure they are warm and have enough milk and bread?

Guy:Incognito

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

RIP.

Prison sentences for manslaughter should be handed down to those responsible.

That or a dose of realism for the overreactors.

Ghost Train

Sad story, slightly strange for it to happen. Seems the heating was had been an issue for a while. Would wonder why she couldn't go somewhere else or use some other source of heat but maybe she didn't realise how bad it was or her mental state was effected, possibly by the situation.

Council are responsible for the heating so should have done something to help her out when heating had to be shut off

mydearwatson

Jesus this thread is sad.

Chances are that, when the poor woman went to sleep that night, she fully expected to wake up in the morning.

Who knows why she didn't stay at her mother's house, or at a hostel, or wherever else. Perhaps it was out of pride? Stubbornness? At least she made the decision to do the best thing for her children.

But the fact is, if you're going to make a conscious decision to commit suicide (as some are suggesting), you wouldn't count on it "happening" through hypothermia. And there is no suggestion in the Coroner's report that the woman was depressed or suicidal, or that any other factors contributed to her death.

The article does not mention that the women had failed to pay her bills, or anything of the like. It's very easy for us to assume that she was some poor broke alcoholic druggie, who'd spent her last few euro on drink and drugs and cigarettes, rather than to pay the heating. But the cold hard facts known to the public do not suggest that this is the case. The reason that it's an easy assumption to make, however, is because of the "well at least it could never happen to me" mentality.

I know that it could happen to me. I'll readily admit that. I'm lucky enough to be in steady employment, as is my boyfriend. I may have children soon. Say if my circumstances were to change. Say if my boyfriend were to die, or to leave me, and I ended up bringing up children on my own. I could lose my job - anyone could. I have never been dependent on welfare in my life, but it could end up happening that I'd have no choice. There's nothing to indicate that this woman wasn't paying her rent or bills. If the council knowingly allow this to happen to paying tenants, well it could absolutely happen to anyone. It makes me wonder how many other families are living through similar circumstances at the moment.

I don't know the full facts of the case. But I think it's very wrong of anyone to judge the woman in question and to basically suggest that she "deserved" it when they don't know any more facts that I do. And from what I can see, it could very well happen to anyone you know. F*ckin mess of a country.

Queen-Mise

My lord there has been some idiotic comments on this thread about this poor woman's death.

All the comments of: Why didn't she stay in a hostel or go to her mothers? These are all pointless - the girl is dead now. Hindsight doesn't really work in real life.

Again it would seem fairly obvious to me - that if a 30 year old woman thought she was going to die of hypothermia she would have left the flat.

I'd imagine that she had electric heaters on, maybe hot-water bottles etc. The temperature in the flat would have dropped to -10ish (temperatures were very low at the time). An hour or two is enough for hypothermia to set in. And of course as already mentioned - she would have felt warm and not have realised it. Fell asleep and never woke up.

And as for comments that it is not society's responsibility to look after the weaker members of that society. That frankly is the most idiotic of all the comments. If it is not society's responsibility to look after their weaker members: then who's is it?

I am not a lawyer etc etc - but I would hazard an opinion that the City Council does bear some responsibility for this girl's death. The heating turned off in the entire complex. Was there secondary sources, an open fire, for example? The only alternative this woman would have is electric heating - and that is not adequate for heating a flat with two children, nevermind the cost of doing so.

This is a tragic death as much as any of the high profile deaths we here about also.

EDIT: Thank god her children were with her mother - otherwise they could have been three deaths in the flat that night. I wonder would all the comments on this thread have been different if that was the case.

Caoimhín

Queen-Mise wrote: »

My lord there has been some idiotic comments on this thread about this poor woman's death.

And as for comments that it is not society's responsibility to look after the weaker members of that society. That frankly is the most idiotic of all the comments. If it is not society's responsibility to look after their weaker members: then who's is it?

It is indeed a tragedy, nobody is suggesting otherwise. I reacted to the daft comments that others should be found guilty of manslaughter.

I am of the opinion that the old, the sick or the vulnerable in our society should be helped. I suppose where we might disagree is on exactly who in our society is weaker and to what extent they should be helped.

BostonB

The inquest heard how Dublin City Council had turned off the heating in Ms Peavoy’s flat. The single mother had contacted the council about it but was told the heating would not be turned on as a number of flats around her were empty and because regeneration was ongoing.

I think you'd need to know the details of that process before commenting.

You'd also need to know why that mother felt she need to be in the house, instead of at her mothers.

Very sad.

Oranage2

The fact that people are dying of hypothermia is a very scary reflection of how times are and really this shouldn't happen!

So sad for her family and her young children.

mickydoomsux

Oranage2 wrote: »

The fact that people are dying of hypothermia is a very scary reflection of how times are and really this shouldn't happen!

So sad for her family and her young children.

Well "people" didn't die, a person died. Also the times we're in didn't cause the unprecedented cold weather.

There's more to this story than what's been published so far.

AckwelFoley

mickydoomsux wrote: »

This all seems very fishy.

This woman was either a willing victim of our culture of helplessness or she was trying to kill herself.

No one stays in their house during an unprecendented cold-snap after being told beforehand that the heating will be off. Her ditching the kids is odd as well.

Aye.

To me this story reads that she was in an apt in a building the council want to vacate, and she wont move else where, i guarentee she was given plenty of notice, but because the apts are centrally heated as bambi said, they have to probably heat 10 of them to heat hers as well.

She probably was afraid the council would move in if she moved for the cold snap.

Either way, kids without a mother is sad, but there is more to this story than the headline suggests

Caoimhín

mickydoomsux wrote: »

There's more to this story than what's been published so far.

Well to come to that conclusion, you would need to think rationally and maybe look for another article or another source before coming to (or not) an informed conclusion.

Ah feck it, just go onto Boards and demand that the authorities be found guilty of manslaughter.

daithi2011

My brother is doing up an old house and living in it since he bought it.
Its remote and he has no central heating in it yet and has been there for 3 years now.
He has an electric radiator in the room he is sleeping in while working there. which broke over christmas and he couldnt get a replacement because he was snowed in over Christmas.
He just wrapped up and turned on the oven and left the door open. As soon as he could move his car he called to a friend and borrowed an electric heater.
3 Days he survived using the oven for heat.

He phoned me and told me the story when the heater broke and he wouldnt be home christmas day to us and I said I could try and make it down to him, but he was ok. If it got bad he would just call the rescue services. But he wasnt bothered at all. Said it wasnt as bad as he thought it was going to be.

I suppose you just have to be a little bit proactive.
There is plenty you can do not to die of cold.

BostonB

+1 we don't have the full facts here.

mikemac

If this was an elderly lady I'd find it very sad

A young fit person of 30? Still sad but there is more to be revealed here

up for anything

Gulliver wrote: »

A fan heater would only cost the same as two packets of cigarettes.

Why use the analogy of a couple of packs of cigarettes rather than a kilo of mince and milk and bread for the week? Because she is a single mother living in corporation/council housing and that's usually what they spend their money on?

Fan heaters cost less than ten euro to buy but have you ever looked into the cost of running one?

upandcumming wrote: »

Point taken, but would she not have said at one point, "Fuck, this is fierce cold, I'll get a coffee or go to my friend's house."

From experience I know that when you get that cold your body doesn't want to move. Your brain might be telling you to get up and move around but unless there are extraordinary circumstances it is easier to 'ignore' it,

Caoimhín wrote: »

Well what would you suggest then? Maybe employ a public servant of sorts to visit peoples house every night to make sure they are warm and have enough milk and bread?

Excellent idea! They could utilise all those civil servants who have been sidelined and given a desk and a title but no work because they can't get rid of them but who can't be given even the most junior clerical task to do because of their grade. Most people in the public sector seem to know of at least one of these types if they are telling the truth.

BostonB wrote: »

You'd also need to know why that mother felt she need to be in the house, instead of at her mothers.

Maybe it was just a sort of pride. Even when people know that things are bad with you, you still retain a sense of not wanting them to know exactly how dire things are.

EverEvolving

snyper wrote: »

Aye.

To me this story reads that she was in an apt in a building the council want to vacate, and she wont move else where, i guarentee she was given plenty of notice, but because the apts are centrally heated as bambi said, they have to probably heat 10 of them to heat hers as well.

She probably was afraid the council would move in if she moved for the cold snap.

Either way, kids without a mother is sad, but there is more to this story than the headline suggests

I think that could be the reason she went back alright, she also said she couldn't sleep so that must be why she left the kids with her mum and turned off her phone. I'd say there is more to the story than what has been reported so far.

Cheap Thrills!

Am I right in thinking she was living in a flat in the Ballymun flats.....those things are HUGE, big huge high rise things with old fashioned single glaze windows.

So if the heating was off in the whole block (which might have 50 or more flats) then the higher she was with wind chill, the flat could have been unbelievably cold.

Maybe there is a back story, imo it doesn't matter. It's heartbreakingly sad.

El Horseboxo

I think people have a vague understanding of hypothermia given some of the comments in here.

Capt'n Midnight

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

RIP.

Prison sentences for manslaughter should be handed down to those responsible.

If the only reason the heat was off because there was a lack of funding then the financial regulator, developers, anglo & co and politicians would be to blame.

When you make certain cuts in public spending more people die than would otherwise.

Mike 1972

mickoneill30 wrote: »

Other options like calling for help by phone or go to a neighbour weren't used either.

Did you actually read the article she did phone about the heat and she had no gawdamn neighbours

Typical "blame the victim" bull****

Cheap Thrills!

From what I understand the heating was off as only a few units in the flats were occupied.
They mention that re-generation was ongoing, so I take it to mean they didn't want to heat the whole block just for a few people.
Perhaps they were trying to pressure the remaining people out.

Irish Examiner today:
http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/froze-to-death-in-flat-143613.html