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ULSU and Fianna Fail

Jigga

Are UL students not concerned that the vast majority of their student union leadership are members of the biggest enemies of Irish students - Fianna Fail?

These FF members such as Derek Daly and last year's president Pa O'Brien share the conservative right-wing policies of this government such as reintroducing fees and other education cutbacks. Indeed, the current president Ruan Dillon McLoughlin's also has cosy ties with this cabal.

This explains the absolutely pathetic role the ULSU have played in opposing the reintroduction of fees - many of their leadership actually support their reintroduction!

Shame on them, could their party have done more damage to Ireland and it's young people?

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PeakOutput

billy the squid wrote: »

the state abandonned electronic voting, yet here we are in UL introducing online voting for elections.

what has that got to do with anything?

I do believe that membership of political party should be disclosed during the elections,

i think it should be disclosed and that should be the end of it, there shouldnt be any debates or points scoring based on the party membership imo. as long as its disclosed the students can see that and make a decision but without rules it would inevtiably turn into tit for tat hes ff im green im better

Ms. Education

ynwa_17 wrote: »

Even with the two aforementioned in the above quote, that still leaves Aoife Finnerty, Vivion Grisewood and Finn McDuffie, all of which you 'luckily enough' fail to mention. How can it be considered a surprise that a member or two of the union follow a party which is by far the biggest political party in Ireland and one of the most 'successful' in the democratic world?

Cheers for remembering that the SU has more officers than Derek! I rarely comment on any thread outside of mine, but I'll make an exception in this case. If my political preferences impacted on my ability to do my job, I'd share them. They don't, so I won't. I will, for the sake of addressing the "majority FF" idea, confirm that I am not a member of the Fianna Fail party nor have I voted Fianna Fail in a General Election. I'm probably the most anti-FF person you could find and I make no secret of that. Nobody knows my personal opinion on 3rd level fees or anything else for that matter unless they are a friend and opt to ask. This is because they have no place in my job, which is to represent and act in the interest of the students of UL.

In case it wasn't obvious from the name, Aoife Finnerty, VP Ed.

constantg

Hi Sceptre,

Forgot you were the Mod on this one for a while there. Fair enough, apologies for any misbehavior.

Eamo

sceptre

A few things from the forum moderation angle:

1. I've deleted about thirty posts from this thread, all from the most recent few pages. Various reasons for this but at its core, most deleted posts were part of an idiotic round-robin sniping match, offering little in the way of discussion. The remainder were quoting the idiotic round-robin sniping match, offering little in the way of discussion.

2. If forum members reckon some posts are libellous (as has been stated once or twice), your avenue for dealing with them is to report them via the little warning triangle at the bottom left of the relevant post. That way the moderators can act as appropriate. Starting an on-topic discussion of that isn't productive when there's a perfectly good defined method of making a complaint. Please note that none of the individuals under discussion in this thread were involved in this exchange.

3. Please retain some basic cop-on when posting. If you insist on posting complete poo-standard crud consisting mainly of insulting another forum member, you're wasting the time of others by posting it as well as wasting my time dealing with it. While the latter shouldn't be too much of an influence, at least have some reasonable decency for other readers and forum members. Cop-on is cheap, politeness is free, decorum is expected.

4. While I don't enjoy giving people red cards or bans from the forum, it won't keep me awake at night if it's necessary to do so. Keep that in mind when posting as well. You may well have an axe to grind, you may well have something to gain from posting, you may feel you have something to lose if you don't. I, on the other hand, have no influences apart from being ardently anti-idiocy and pro-reasonable communication and discourse. Put simply, don't think you won't get banned for acting the tool. You will.

5. Some of the off-topic stuff (notably the evoting and the prospect/probability/effect of its introduction) is worthy of its own thread. Feel free to start that thread if you have strong feelings about it one way or the other. It's not particularly on-topic for this one.

6. As mentioned in this thread, the Students' Union has rules about campaigning before a certain date and other procedures with regard to elections, some clearly defined, some less so. That's cool. It's up to the SU to enforce those rules on candidates and prospective candidates. This forum isn't run by the SU or for the SU and isn't itself bound by any rules of any organisations other than its own charter, the boards.ie siterules and applicable Irish law. And common sense, though that's covered by the long-standing boards.ie siterule number zero: don't be a dick. Let's try not to be a dick today, there are enough of those about.

Please bear the above in mind when posting. Cop-on, politeness etc, cheers.

Short version of the above: about recent 30 posts were deleted from this thread due to assorted dicking about, some of it not very nice. Be nicer or the moderators will have to make you so.

Queries, comments re the above can be sent to me and/or to Pete by PM.

constantg

has the mod decided to cut off a pretty hefty chunk of the discussion on this topic?

SarahBeep!

billy the squid wrote: »

If their vision for An Focail was to emulate the Sun then I would have a problem.

If they don't want party affiliation to come into elections then they should be banned from using fellow party members in their campaigns.

There seems to be an awful lot of ifs and buts being dropped in this thread.

I prefer rugby to soccer. If a member of the ul soccer team decided to run for a sabbatical position, do i think his or hers teammates should be banned from helping them all because i think soccer has gone to the dogs? no.
Because believe it or not if you ask anyone involved in c&s they'll tell you they've made some great friends there. When my friends make decisions (eg running for a sabbatical position) i support them.

billy the squid

SarahBeep! wrote: »

Provided its hack proof i support voting. Some things work better on a small scale.

If we ask for political preference then we need to ask for religion, opinion on abortion, opinion on the American occupancy of the middle east and opinion on pineapple on pizza.

Coz i don't want a war loving, pineapple hating, religious extremist telling me which grants i can apply for or how to evaluate my lecturers.
But hey, that's just a personal opinion.
(All getting pretty ridiculous now, isn't it?)

would you hold it against a communications officer if he/she preferred to pick up the sun instead of the examiner?

If their vision for An Focail was to emulate the Sun then I would have a problem.

If they don't want party affiliation to come into elections then they should be banned from using fellow party members in their campaigns.

bazkennedy

While this is going a bit off topic, e-voting has been used quiet succesfully for Student Union elections in several UK Universities for the past two years.

bazkennedy

This seems to come up every year where a person who has a grudge against a particular political party attacks a sabbat for having some connection to said political party, sabat (and others) comes on and defends him/herself and points out how it doesn't really matter what political party you support cos sabbats don't dictate policy blah blah blah.

This is a pointless debate. We'd be better off having an open and informed debate on education funding (fees, grants, costs and cuts) but seeing as FF bashing is en vogue we seem to be having a witch hunt for anyone connected to the party (next week we'll be attacking the class rep who's third cousin's next door neighbour used to be the tea lady at FF HQ)

Oh and for the record I'll be voting for the Monster Raving Looney Party and if i happen to become a sabbat I will be using my job to implement the Party's policy- Fees for some, miniature ul for others [/joke]

Yours Satirically

Barry Kennedy

billy the squid

SarahBeep! wrote: »

People shouldn't have rowe disclose their political preference when running for election.

I can't really see Derek or Ruan going all Robert Mugabe and stealing our freedom...

the state abandonned electronic voting, yet here we are in UL introducing online voting for elections.

I do believe that membership of political party should be disclosed during the elections,

ynwa_17

TheProdigy wrote: »

I think you should back up these accusations or somebody may hold you responsible over such comments, comments potentially worthy of libel action.

I'm not really sure you understand the concept of libel. Libel would involve me specifically mentioning individuals as having done or said something. I said member's of Rockett's campaign did. So cop yourself on a bit

Not that i need to prove anything to yourself but I was part of the aforementioned campaign team, for starters.

Many of the posts relating to FF and digs at the two sabbats at hand were deleted, however see the following for comments on the topic at hand

ninty9er wrote: »

I am a member of Fianna Fáil. I wouldn't normally, but I'm going to declare that my opponent is also just in case he doesn't engage here and this is something that affects voting.

Again, I have kept my party political dealings at arm's length in a similar manner as I have kept personal and Union opinions completely separate where they don't intersect.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64791758&postcount=12

ninty9er wrote: »

In any case, party politics has no place in the job.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=64795189

and:

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64797456&postcount=25

ynwa_17

TheProdigy wrote: »

I see your acquaintance Mr.Power was showed you the art of dodging questions.

I think you are aware that such honesty would be detrimental to your forthcoming presidential campaign.

Should you choose to not disclose such information I am sure there will be plenty of people willing to make it available to the electorate.

Announcing his 'supposed' forthcoming presidential campaign is actually against the SU rules on election. While these are often the worst kept secrets, announcing it on a public forum, months in advance while currently being a sabbat would not be seen as a very smart thing.

I don't even think this is a case of the OP wanting to question the role of FF in the SU. It actually seems more of a personal attack on Derek (and originally Ruan.) If one looks back to the election threads they'll find similar posts, mainly from Paddy Rockett campaigners, which was a tactic I didn't like.

SarahBeep!

daithi_lacha wrote: »

Much to the delight of every other college when we appeared on RTÉ News

Surely an issue as big as the reintroduction of fees, an issue so close to students hearts shouldn't require 'begging' to have them come along to a protest? Perhaps the fact that a majority of them required 'begging' was a hint that maybe, although the issue was close to their hearts, they quite simply didn't want to go, for reasons which weren't obvious to many of those at the heart of the organised journey to Dublin...

It was even said to me by a friend from UCC that she saw UL shirts everywhere which is pretty damn cool

Im pretty sure, unless you overslept (=p), you were in the lecture where I and two others got up to tell people about the protest. Very few people gave us a second look.
What if everyone looked either side of them and asked themselves 'If fees were introduced would I still be seeing my best friend in college?' whether we realise it or not, we decide how things Will end up. When Im old and have children and grandchildren I hope I can tell them I did what was best for my generation and theirs by trying to safeguard things like education for all because that's the only way in this day and age to escape poverty.
If that means voting (which ill be old enough to do fo the first time in this next election) for a non FF candidate then so be it. A particular candidate has yet to win my vote, but whoever they are they Will do so with their policies, not their party.

But i won't hold a grudge against Derek or anyone else who votes FF.

@Jigga: disagree with what someone says, don't question their right to say it.

Sarah Dowd, over and out. :rolleyes:

TheProdigy

ninty9er wrote: »

I can't possibly answer that question as there is currently no election and therefore no campaigning permitted.

I see your acquaintance Mr.Power was showed you the art of dodging questions.

I think you are aware that such honesty would be detrimental to your forthcoming presidential campaign.

Should you choose to not disclose such information I am sure there will be plenty of people willing to make it available to the electorate.

canned_ulkc

breanoh - I'd like to know who you are - cos you're my new hero..... You said much of what I was thinking in a much nicer way. If it was me I'd be more aggressively fking and shting about the fact that it amazes me how people create associations and are not allowed thereafter to have a balanced opinion.

Derek is regularly the subject of anti FF, sly dirtydog, bitchy, sarcastic and possibly even caustic comments from myself on FB.

I like to think such banter encourages people to think rather than polarise. And that seems to be what has happened here. We are each of us unique and I would HATE to be associated with defending anything FF but I find it embarrassing for those who are willing to attack in such a presumptuous way.

Also - if Derek were to go for ULSU president, don't be associated with all that is wrong with politics in a preemptive smearing - get the guts to allow people to make their own decisions on who they vote for - I think that's called democracy.

If you don't like that - tough; you need to accept it though. After all, every time a majority of fking dickheads vote FF back in, I've accepted it. Mostly by being able to know that they are indeed dickheads..... Nothing like the moral high ground... I await the scathing replies claiming all sorts of ignorance etc. Best of luck - water of a kayaker's back....

Actually - since posting the above, I have made a bit more of an effort than I usually would in looking at the OP's OPs..... and All I can do is use other abreviations like OMFG and WAFA (I just made that up - it means "What a Fking Ahole") The barely hidden agenda here is obvious. I have no idea about Pa and Derek has been very up front about his FF allegience but Ruan an FF man....?? I think sir you are having a joke or are on some kind of medication....

ninty9er

TheProdigy wrote: »

Ok
Now will you answer my initial question which I thought the elected welfare officer would have the decency to provide to a student.

I can't possibly answer that question as there is currently no election and therefore no campaigning permitted.

TheProdigy

ninty9er wrote: »

How would it?? It may result in students being asked their opinion on the matter, but you are making assumptions based on fallacies. There is nothing that I cannot do now, that I could do if I were President, bar attend PCC Ltd board meetings.

Ok

Now will you answer my initial question which I thought the elected welfare officer would have the decency to provide to a student.

ninty9er

TheProdigy wrote: »

Derek you are pro fees, now if you got elected as president it may result in you campaigning/advertising for the introduction of fees.

How would it?? It may result in students being asked their opinion on the matter, but you are making assumptions based on fallacies. There is nothing that I cannot do now, that I could do if I were President, bar attend PCC Ltd board meetings.

breanoh

I think alot of the arguments being put forward here are no brainers, Sabbatical officers don't have the ability do change union policy, that is up the class reps, UGM, EGM or referrendum.

Party politics has not and does not come into the SU elections, and I hope it doesn't, because at the end of the day, the students elect people they believe in, and believe can get the work done, they don't vote for a poltical party ideoligy.

It has been a well known fact since the day Mr. Daly walked into the SU building as a fresh faced first year that he was a Fianna Failer, it is something he never hid, and and always talked about! And it was not hidden on his campaign

Officers are meant to leave their personal opinions on individual issues at the door, and work for the betterment of the students through the channels provided for in the Constitution. he attended an anti-fees protest, and did his work as a sabbat, what more can be asked for.

I can remember when St. John had to protest the students right to park our cars for €2, although he was an avid envoirnmentalist, To name but one other example of personal beliefs being left at the door.

Lads, lets get off this witch hunt. The internet is a great place for those with agendas to post behind anonymous usernames, Stop being sensationalist, and start being realistic,

Over the past 9 years I have seen students union sabbats in UL, people have come and gone, we've had extreme left wing, extreme right wing, FG, FF, Lab, SF, the whole lot, the union has gone through massive change, from being massively in debt, to where it is now. And this current crop isn't a bad crop at all.

Guys, stop your stupid scaremongering, read the constitution, and stop trying to discredit good officers. It really is so 2006!

Breandán Ó hÉamhaigh.
(Yes, that one)

shabouwcaw

To be fair and reasonable, there's hardly a massive scope for ideology in the nuts and bolts running of ULSU.

As Derek said, he's employed to do a job, I don't think anyone could have any reasonable complaints about the level at which he does that job.

I think his abortion analogy is a good one. While people could be elected to a position holding very strong pro-life views, if they were in a position where someone came to them looking for information, it's expected that the person puts the interests of their job first. That's how someone who is professional and responsible acts in that situation.

Yes, its cool to slag off Fianna Fail. Yes, they've destroyed the economy. But that in no way reflects on the ability of A. Derek Daly to do his job. B. the ability of ULSU to function independent of political influence C. the ability of ULSU to reflect the views of the students.

You forget, the Union Executive has very limited scope for independent policy creation. The Union views on things are passed at Council and at the UGM. The sabbats do not have a technocratic dictatorship, so even if Derek was a FF-puppet hell bent on privatising all student services and all the other bogeyman stuff you could possibly accuse "evil rightwingers" of (which Derek is not), they would be unable to do so. Coz that's not how ULSU works.

Regards (and since anonymity breeds unaccountability, Jigga)
David Hartery.

TheProdigy

ninty9er wrote: »

I am connected to Fianna Fáil and I am connected to ULSU, but that does not mean Fianna Fáil is connected to ULSU.

Derek you are pro fees, now if you got elected as president it may result in you campaigning/advertising for the introduction of fees.

Therefore I would appreciate it if you would answer whether you would advertise on any flyers etc for your presidential campaign that you are pro fees?

daithi_lacha

SarahBeep! wrote: »

and making sure the shirts said ULSU instead of USI.

Much to the delight of every other college when we appeared on RTÉ News

SarahBeep! wrote: »

People went around begging people to sign up in lectures as well as the b1 canteen

Surely an issue as big as the reintroduction of fees, an issue so close to students hearts shouldn't require 'begging' to have them come along to a protest? Perhaps the fact that a majority of them required 'begging' was a hint that maybe, although the issue was close to their hearts, they quite simply didn't want to go, for reasons which weren't obvious to many of those at the heart of the organised journey to Dublin...

ninty9er

Jigga wrote: »

Some people still manage to miss the point and continue to operate under the illusion that having pro-fees people lead anti-fees campaigns doesn't matter. It clearly does, but I've made my point. Hopefully some of those who weren't aware of the FF nature of the SU leadership have been awoken to this fact.

Can I just ask if you are even a UL student? I ask because you seem to be entirely unaware of how ULSU operates. if you think it matters. I have won arguments on slogans and campaigning based on the fact that only someone pro-fees could see that some of the slogans could be ripped to pieces, the same applied when framing the anti-fees stance ULSU has taken. It has been tapered, but that has been on the basis that ULSU has in the main made watertight arguments, pre-empting any retorts, that would not have happened were I not at the table

not bakunin wrote: »

However, can you understand how the above statements may come across very poorly to the average student? Not that you oppose fees, but that you would be involved in 'their' anti-fees campaign at a high level when you clearly feel otherwise personally.

I have a personal opinion. It is stated on the other thread (the elections one from last year) that I am entitled to a personal opinion, but where a conflict arises in the line of my work, I am paid to be involved in an anti-fees campaign, so while I'm working I'm anti fees.

If I have views on abortion, then I also have to put that aside should a student/students come to me with an unplanned pregnancy and explain to them that there are 3 options. It is simply a matter of when I am working, I am working and that is the end of it. Personal opinions do not count where decisions have already been taken.

not bakunin wrote: »

It is a hypocritical stance in my eyes at least.
EDIT: Could I just add to PeakOutput's previous point there and echo the call for transparency about your view at election time. No idea if you are running again, but if you are, I hope to see you shouting loud and proud to everyone that you are pro-fees...being the Deputy President definitely necessitates this.

I don't view it as hypocrytical, it is a separation of private and public. I chose to let people know my personal opinion. I didn't have to tell anyone.

But this thread is not about my opinions. It is a discredited thread about ULSU and Fianna Fáil. ULSU's only connection with Fianna Fáil is that it is a recognised society in ULSU.

I am connected to Fianna Fáil and I am connected to ULSU, but that does not mean Fianna Fáil is connected to ULSU.

TheProdigy

ninty9er wrote: »

For those that are unaware I am Derek Daly.

This issue comes up from time to time and I have no problems in addressing it. I am a member of Fianna Fáil, though I dispute the right wing alignment, but that's not for discussion here.

When I am at work, that is firmly outside the door, however where debates arise internally I will express a personal opinion before a vote is taken, as will all officers who wish to do so. I have only ever once been accused in an internal meeting (not this year) of expressing an opinion as a Fianna Fáil member above Derek Daly. This ended badly and with the other person retracting the statement under threat of an official harassment complaint.

I do not, nor have I ever, sought to put a Fianna Fáil view forward as one that should be adopted by ULSU.

My opinion on fees is that I am pro, but then again I was one of the people who brought Ógra Fianna Fáil to that opinion, it was not Ógra Fianna Fáil who brought me to that opinion. I will not debate 3rd level fees on this forum, if you want to debate fees with me do it in the politics forum.

I'm not going to comment on other's political hues, but suffice to say there is only one member of Fianna Fáil elected to a sabbatical position. I get plenty of abuse for it from staff, and from other officers, but I am as entitled to my membership of Fianna Fáil and my opinions as they are not to like it. If it ever turned nasty, I would take appropriate action, but it hasn't and I doubt it will.

We work as a team in ULSU regardless of political persuasion or personal disagreements. That is as it should be.

We take our direction from Class Reps Council or AGM on policy and as such, regardless of my personal opinion on fees I was in Dublin in November shouting as loudly as anyone else.

As for political ambitions and platforming, does anyone honestly believe that the people of Ireland cold give a flying fuck whether someone was an SU officer or not. I wouldn't hide it, but it wouldn't be of much benefit on a campaign trail as a decent policy schedule. There are plenty of people in other SUs, looking particularly at UCD and USI that use it as a political platform, but to be honest, I don't know why as it is so far removed from the everyday life of a national legislator that you would have to be blind or stupid to think that being a students' union officer is of enormous benefit. There are minor experiential things like conflict resolution and dealing with University management that can translate, but the vast majority of what we do is irrelevant to most politicians, and by inference the electorate.

On the subject of protests: At the Irish World Academy opening we expected Cowen to walk across the Living Bridge from Plassey House, however due to delays he went straight to the World Academy. We could have waited in the Millstream, but security kindly informed us he may not be using that route so we repositioned in a place that he would HAVE to pass. The protest meeting time was 11am and it was 11:05 by the time the Millstream was cleared of protesters.

Ruán and I got 5 minutes with Cowen during which we outlined the impact of core budget cuts as well as the impracticalities of increasing the SSC to €3,000. He listened, he outlined his position and thanked us for the views. I did not arrange this, the University Protocol Office arranged this and at no time was Cowen made aware of our political persuasions by either of us, though the Chancellor may have done so in my case, I don't know.

I don't know how I can be any clearer in outlining the separation of my work and my Fianna Fáil membership.

When your running for president this year will you make it clear on any handouts etc that you are pro college fees? I think you would have a duty to do so, would you agree?

SarahBeep!

Jigga wrote: »

Some people still manage to miss the point and continue to operate under the illusion that having pro-fees people lead anti-fees campaigns doesn't matter. It clearly does, but I've made my point. Hopefully some of those who weren't aware of the FF nature of the SU leadership have been awoken to this fact.

Regarding the Cowen visit, the student union reps had left the Millstream Courtyard by 10.50 and there were about a dozen students left behind. RTE actually came to talk to the students who were still there at 11 and the official SU contingent had definitely long gone by then.

So because the voice at the front of the crowd has a particular opinion, it drowns out all the others?

And people who were 'left behind' could easily have followed, like people who were in class came late.

not bakunin

ninty9er wrote: »

My opinion on fees is that I am pro....
We take our direction from Class Reps Council or AGM on policy and as such, regardless of my personal opinion on fees I was in Dublin in November shouting as loudly as anyone else.

Derek I appreciate the points made in your post, and am glad to note you have been consistently open about your FF membership.
However, can you understand how the above statements may come across very poorly to the average student? Not that you oppose fees, but that you would be involved in 'their' anti-fees campaign at a high level when you clearly feel otherwise personally. I am not accusing you of not putting in genuinely hard work involving the protest etc, but your allegiances to the anti-fees campaign, regardless of Union policy, has to be a legitimate concern to anti-fees students. It is a hypocritical stance in my eyes at least.
EDIT: Could I just add to PeakOutput's previous point there and echo the call for transparency about your view at election time. No idea if you are running again, but if you are, I hope to see you shouting loud and proud to everyone that you are pro-fees...being the Deputy President definitely necessitates this.

Regarding the Cowen fiasco, I can confirm that the SU protesters left the Millstream before 11am, without leaving any indication as to where they had re-located. (There was an email sent out as far as I remember, but at short notice and there was no sign left redirecting people at the Millstream. About 8 interested students asked me where the SU had gone after showing up there). RTE and Irish Times journalists were subsequently left to talk to the extremely small body of other protesters (lecturers, socialists, hangers-on) at the actual building. However, this has all been well-documented and is in the past. There were mistakes made, hopefully it won't happen again.

Jigga

Some people still manage to miss the point and continue to operate under the illusion that having pro-fees people lead anti-fees campaigns doesn't matter. It clearly does, but I've made my point. Hopefully some of those who weren't aware of the FF nature of the SU leadership have been awoken to this fact.

Regarding the Cowen visit, the student union reps had left the Millstream Courtyard by 10.50 and there were about a dozen students left behind. RTE actually came to talk to the students who were still there at 11 and the official SU contingent had definitely long gone by then.

The Little Fella

I would never vote for Fianna Fail but that does not stop me recognising they do have some good politicians in their party such as Brian Lenihan who was not given the correct ministry to match his expertise and also the likes of Michael Martin and Mary Hanafin. It is not correct to paint all people who are in Fianna Fail with the same brush. Personally I would support the introduction of fees if a proper grant system could be put in place with such an introduction. Political affiliations should not in any case affect SU officers in their roles.

Seloth

ilovemybrick wrote: »

I think you misunderstand how democracy works. The very discrimination against opposing theories or opinions is the basis of democracy.

I believe they mean on a more local level.While in theory and Nationally that is true the SU is not made up of political opinions or party's but one such that functions to bring about the best for the student body.

ilovemybrick

SarahBeep! wrote: »

Secondly, you have no right to discriminate against anyone because of their political preference no more than you do regarding their race religion or gender.

I think you misunderstand how democracy works. The very discrimination against opposing theories or opinions is the basis of democracy.