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What do you think of the US Ambassador's comments about graduates in Ireland?

andrewire

Context:

The United States bluntly told the Republic's government that Ireland's education policies were not providing US firms with enough quality graduates.

Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/us-complained-to-irish-pm-about-quality-of-graduates-15031578.html#ixzz18JgkLijl

----

Do you agree or disagree with that comment? I personally think he's right. I think some (not all) colleges and universities do not challenge you intellectually, they just limit themselves to 'teach the program' and that's it. It seems there's more emphasis on guidelines than actual learning. My personal experience tells me lecturers are more concerned about external examiners than what you learn in the classroom. For example, most of my lecturers always say: 'An examiner won't like that type of answer', etc. Is it all about my learning experience and not what the examiner will think?

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karma_

PeakOutput wrote: »

they are dead right its been discussed to death in politics, generally it seems that people refuse to accept the facts and like to live on in blissfull ignorance believing we still have a decent education system they are the only ones who will suffer

Nonsense.

That is all.

Ficheall

Ah good. Perhaps we'll have less of this "knowledge economy" ****ehawking now.

PeakOutput

Deleted User wrote: »

OK, A US company insists that it wants the top 0.1% of the educated elite working for them!

were did you see that?

The US ambassador's talking out of his arse!

the ambassador said that the quality of irish graduates is not good enough for the american companies, presumably because they told him. it has nothing to do with percentages or quantity. if the quality was good enough they could find enough people to work for them here, they cant apparently. google in particular has said it wont recruit from specific universities as they have had such bad experiences with their graduates, its a ridicolous state of affairs

Jesus Wept

Yes he is right.
That is the problem with a almost free 3rd level education system. A lot of clowns go because it is the done thing, not because they are actually interested in the course they are enrolled in.

Overheal

orourkeda wrote: »

Perhaps they should f*ck off and hire their own graduates then

Because no politician cares about US Education because if the US Populace became too educated it would blow their minds. Keep 'em ignorant, keep 'em down. Irish Nationals can't run for public office afaik

[Deleted User]

PeakOutput wrote: »

were did you see that?

the ambassador said that the quality of irish graduates is not good enough for the american companies, presumably because they told him. it has nothing to do with percentages or quantity. if the quality was good enough they could find enough people to work for them here, they cant apparently. google in particular has said it wont recruit from specific universities as they have had such bad experiences with their graduates, its a ridicolous state of affairs

In the real world on humanity, there are only so many people who could be considered the cream of the crop, that is what my original post was eluding to, inteligance is inherited, education is instilled into you.

If 3rd level education was given purly and 100% on merit, then there would be more genuine graduates, both here and elsewhere!

sdanseo

Our graduates are perfectly well qualified. What we lose in the fact that some courses are a bit on the easy side we gain in the fact that our standard of secondary education is undoubtedly higher. College for everyone means the courses can't be elitist (which has its own flaws, but nonetheless is truth, otherwise the failure rates would be very high).

The mere fact that this country is so utterly reliant on mainly American multinationals to prop up our pathetic little economy is proof of how meaningless and see-through our "Celtic Tiger" was, really. I'm strongly of the opinion that this relaince is unhealthy and in the long term unsustainable; we've already lost Dell almost totally and coutless jobs in others. Granted this is because they're greedy capitalist bastards but it doesn't change the fact that these guys can and will move to cheaper places and if anyone else lowers their tax rate they could destroy us.

It's like a quick quid loan really - moronic. We need to bolster our own indigenous businesses and export our talent and produce. Make Irish names the big multinationals, not just play mammy to the Americans.

the_monkey

andrewire wrote: »

Context:
The United States bluntly told the Republic's government that Ireland's education policies were not providing US firms with enough quality graduates.

Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/us-complained-to-irish-pm-about-quality-of-graduates-15031578.html#ixzz18JgkLijl

----

Do you agree or disagree with that comment? I personally think he's right. I think some (not all) colleges and universities do not challenge you intellectually, they just limit themselves to 'teach the program' and that's it. It seems there's more emphasis on guidelines than actual learning. My personal experience tells me lecturers are more concerned about external examiners than what you learn in the classroom. For example, most of my lecturers always say: 'An examiner won't like that type of answer', etc. Is it all about my learning experience and not what the examiner will think?

WHAT ??????

From a f/cking american !!! The worst education system in the world !!

and there if you have money you get a top degree handed to you !!

un real ... just un-f*cking real, we have one of the best education systems in the world and some satan f*cking yank (evil of all the world and cause of all the wars) coming out with this CR*P!!!!!

Holybejaysus

If you want a very basic example of what the ambassador is referring to, check out some of the spelling on this thread for a start-then look at some of the replies from the intellectual midgets on this site. The first reply couldn't even articulate a point of view, but merely suggested the ambassador "**** off and hire their own graduates then". This response was thanked by a number of people. :rolleyes:

So yes, I would say the ambassador has a legitimate point. The multi-nationals are not going to dumb themselves down for you-it is up to you to raise your standards to theirs. Accept this advice, and you might get on in life.
Here endeth the lesson.

df1985

I see his point to be honest, people in my degree course (one of most respected courses in terms of business degress) got 2.1's or even better from 2-3 weeks of cramming for their finals and 6 months of drinking oursleves stupid. we had to work hard in january and may, and every now and then throw a project together in a few days when we'd been given a few weeks to do it, apart from that we would miss half the lectures from being hungover and watching daytime tv.

Napper Hawkins

Holybejaysus wrote: »

If you want a very basic example of what the ambassador is referring to, check out some of the spelling on this thread for a start-then look at some of the replies from the intellectual midgets on this site. The first reply couldn't even articulate a point of view, but merely suggested the ambassador "**** off and hire their own graduates then". This response was thanked by a number of people. :rolleyes:

So yes, I would say the ambassador has a legitimate point. The multi-nationals are not going to dumb themselves down for you-it is up to you to raise your standards to theirs. Accept this advice, and you might get on in life.
Here endeth the lesson.

Amen.

[Deleted User]

df1985 wrote: »

I see his point to be honest, people in my degree course (one of most respected courses in terms of business degress) got 2.1's or even better from 2-3 weeks of cramming for their finals and 6 months of drinking oursleves stupid. we had to work hard in january and may, and every now and then throw a project together in a few days when we'd been given a few weeks to do it, apart from that we would miss half the lectures from being hungover and watching daytime tv.

Is that not what college is about? It's not about learning everything but how you can apply what you know?

df1985

Deleted User wrote: »

Is that not what college is about? It's not about learning everything but how you can apply what you know?

Definately, i wouldnt change a minute of my time in college, but looking back we werent truly under an awful amount of strain. The pressure we felt at exam time wouldnt have been a problem if we had even done some work consistently during the year. I get the impression (could be wrong) that in other countries or even other courses that people are made work relentlessly week after week to get a decent degree-we didnt have to work that hard at all.I leanred enough to pass exams, not enough to say I had a very good broad knowledge of the course, which should be the point of a degree.

[Deleted User]

Yea he's right.. I'm a prime example of the farce that is university. I went to exactly 12 lectures in all of second year, about 15 in all of third year, did all nighters for almost all my subjects and now i've a good degree from a good university.

Lumen

Deleted User wrote: »

Yea he's right.. I'm a prime example of the farce that is university. I went to exactly 12 lectures in all of second year, about 15 in all of third year, did all nighters for almost all my subjects and now i've a good degree from a good university.

And yet you can't spell footpath.

PeakOutput

sdonn wrote: »

Our graduates are perfectly well qualified. What we lose in the fact that some courses are a bit on the easy side we gain in the fact that our standard of secondary education is undoubtedly higher. College for everyone means the courses can't be elitist (which has its own flaws, but nonetheless is truth, otherwise the failure rates would be very high).

The mere fact that this country is so utterly reliant on mainly American multinationals to prop up our pathetic little economy is proof of how meaningless and see-through our "Celtic Tiger" was, really. I'm strongly of the opinion that this relaince is unhealthy and in the long term unsustainable; we've already lost Dell almost totally and coutless jobs in others. Granted this is because they're greedy capitalist bastards but it doesn't change the fact that these guys can and will move to cheaper places and if anyone else lowers their tax rate they could destroy us.

It's like a quick quid loan really - moronic. We need to bolster our own indigenous businesses and export our talent and produce. Make Irish names the big multinationals, not just play mammy to the Americans.

the_monkey wrote: »

WHAT ??????

From a f/cking american !!! The worst education system in the world !!

and there if you have money you get a top degree handed to you !!

un real ... just un-f*cking real, we have one of the best education systems in the world and some satan f*cking yank (evil of all the world and cause of all the wars) coming out with this CR*P!!!!!

ignorance is bliss it seems

Noreen1

Hmm. Twenty years ago, companies invested in training to up-skill their employees.

Nowadays, they expect employees to pay a fortune in educational fees (in some cases) - so that said employees are "fit" to employ, in order to have the privilege of making a profit for "The Company"........

And yet said Company can relocate at any time.

It makes me wonder whether Companies would relocate so readily if they were actually expected to invest in training (worldwide) to a more significant level than at present.....

Just a thought!

Noreen

Lumen

Noreen, the whole job market is more dynamic now so employers have to be smarter about training or else their employees will just take the training then walk down the road to another employer with lower training costs and higher salaries.

w.r.t to the previous "Ireland is the bitch of the multinationals" argument, much of that is down to the politics of finding employment for the semi-skilled and semi-educated in a necessarily high-cost economy operating within a globalised marketplace.

There is lots of good stuff happening in the real smart economy, but unfortunately these sectors are quite small as a proportion of GDP.

Agriculture is also big but not very labour intensive.

The main problem facing all economies in the world, most particularly China, is what to do with all the stupid people now that we're not farming with pitchforks or building roads with shovels.

Biggins

andrewire wrote: »

Context:
The United States bluntly told the Republic's government that Ireland's education policies were not providing US firms with enough quality graduates.

Read more: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/republic-of-ireland/us-complained-to-irish-pm-about-quality-of-graduates-15031578.html#ixzz18JgkLijl

----

Couldn't give a rats arse what America's state government now thinks.
They are morally corrupt from within and a shower of international thugs anyway! Fcuk 'em!

I don't exactly remember what the figures are but official figures (theirs!) shows their education system to be far, far more full of gobschites.
A lot of them can't even find Ireland on a world map!
No wonder their need to look abroad for better educated workers!

Where Does America Stand?

In 2002, UNICEF compared public education in twenty four nations around the world: the US ranked 18. Forty years ago America had the highest graduation rate: now America is ranked as the 19th. US 4th grade math grades have remained the same since 1995, while other countries have improved.

Source: The State of Education in the United States: Why America is Behind Other Countries http://www.suite101.com/content/the-state-of-education-in-the-united-states-a80716#ixzz18MBueGJy

The State of American Education: Not So Great

A new report about inner city graduation rates (.pdf) paints a pretty sobering picture, to put it mildly:

Our analysis finds that graduating from high school in the America’s largest cities amounts, essentially, to a coin toss. Only about one-half (52 percent) of students in the principal school systems of the 50 largest cities complete high school with a diploma.

Source: http://weblogg-ed.com/2008/the-state-of-american-education-not-so-great/

Interesting reading: http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Stossel/story?id=1500338
By 2002 and 2008, their rankings has got even more worse!

Noreen1

Lumen wrote: »

Noreen, the whole job market is more dynamic now so employers have to be smarter about training or else their employees will just take the training then walk down the road to another employer with lower training costs and higher salaries.

w.r.t to the previous "Ireland is the bitch of the multinationals" argument, much of that is down to the politics of finding employment for the semi-skilled and semi-educated in a necessarily high-cost economy operating within a globalised marketplace.

There is lots of good stuff happening in the real smart economy, but unfortunately these sectors are quite small as a proportion of GDP.

Agriculture is also big but not very labour intensive.

The main problem facing all economies in the world, most particularly China, is what to do with all the stupid people now that we're not farming with pitchforks or building roads with shovels.

Yes, I'm aware that the job market is more dynamic - and that Global trade, with the resulting political ramifications is more inter-related than ever before.

It doesn't alter the fact that companies are increasing their profit levels at the expense of their employees - or that significant deterioration in training costs makes it significantly easier for a Company to relocate.

I'm not even suggesting that it's a situation that's easily resolved - just noting the development.

Noreen

Lumen

Noreen1 wrote: »

Yes, I'm aware that the job market is more dynamic - and that Global trade, with the resulting political ramifications is more inter-related than ever before.I

It doesn't alter the fact that companies are increasing their profit levels at the expense of their employees - or that significant deterioration in training costs makes it significantly easier for a Company to relocate.

I'm not even suggesting that it's a situation that's easily resolved - just noting the development.

Noreen

You're looking at it solely from the perspective of employees.

If training costs are down, that makes us more competitive, which will tend to increase relocations to Ireland.

I don't know what the basis is for your statement "companies are increasing their profit levels at the expense of their employees". There is always natural tension between the economic wants of employees and employers since they're trading with one another.

Employees are welcome to start their own businesses if they feel they'd be better off. Many do. Others are happy with the status quo, or just moan.

jackiebaron

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

I think you will find that they have some of the best graduates in the world, many are foreign students but are educated in some of the finest Universities in the world.

Emphasis on some

You'll also find that there is a sizeable proportion of graduates from American universities walking around and still don't know the capital of their own country or how many states there are in the Union. Ask them the capital of another country and you'll be met with either a blank stare or a "Dude, who cares?". And I'm not talking one or two here....I'm talking MILLIONS.

Leaving aside the tiny segment of those who graduate from institutions such as MIT, CalTech, Stanford, Carnegie Mellon, etc in the sciences, the vast majority of uni grads in the US do not have a superior level of education to an average Irish Leaving Cert student. And that's a fact, Jack!

bigneacy

digme wrote: »

What does he mean by quality exactly?

How sexually attractive they are, obviously :rolleyes:

PeakOutput

jackiebaron wrote: »

Emphasis on some
the vast majority of uni grads in the US do not have a superior level of education to an average Irish Leaving Cert student. And that's a fact, Jack!

if that really wasnt a typo and you are saying that our leaving cert students are better educated then their university graduates then your full of ****

our secondary school, on the whole, is better then their high schools on the hole but the idea that our leaving cert students are still more educated then their students after they go to college is a joke

Lumen

It doesn't really matter whether Americans or Irish are more or less stupid than each other if I'm hiring Chinese.

PeakOutput

Lumen wrote: »

It doesn't really matter whether Americans or Irish are more or less stupid than each other if I'm hiring Chinese.

its probably good economic policy for ireland to not just blindly accept that we cant compete with the asians in anyway

prinz

andrewire wrote: »

Do you agree or disagree with that comment?

I agree with what he said. Have been saying it for ages. As has been said before a lot of courses in Ireland can be passed successfully by cramming etc and not an in-depth leaning of a subject, plus when I was back in uni I remember trying to do independent study was actually penalised by one prat lecturer. My OH is German and when we were in uni she gave some of her secondary level essays on English literature to an Irish friend studying to become a teacher, that she could tweak and submit as a third level standard and get marked well on. Ridiculous.

virmilitaris

Well from my own experience the level of education in Asia is as follows;

Extremely difficult to get into a University. I mean ridiculously difficult. High school Kids in Japan and Korea (and probably China although I couldn't swear to it) have a 16-17 hour day of study at least 6 days a week. My wife had to attend high school from 7am to 4pm before going to private schools for Maths, English and other subjects until midnight.

And they don't get any winter or summer holidays to speak of either.

It's not a stereotype that Asians are good at math. They study maths in high school that people in Ireland would do for their final year in a maths degree.

Then comes University and things are much less hectic in undergraduate. If you put in the minimum amount of work you will almost certainly graduate especially in non-science or non-Engineering subjects. For example, I've met people with degrees in English who can't speak it.

I'd say that overall it's probably easier to graduate here than at home especially in arts or social sciences.

In postgraduate it gets hectic again and you have to work hard to get a postgraduate qualification out here.

syklops

orourkeda wrote: »

If they are they are unhappy with the educational standards maybe they should relocate.

They may pay higher corporation tax but maybe that would be just another thing for them to bitch about. Perhaps this is more important to then than the educational attainment of their employees.

Are you for real?????

[Deleted User]

Sticky_Fingers wrote: »

Thats complete horse manure. The Uni staff didn't give a flying f@ck about the students, we were a bothersome distraction to their research and treated us as such. The IT staff on the other hand actually took an interest in our projects (some of which were pretty impressive stuff). As for advancement of knowledge, some of the modules I studied in the IT doubled up with what I have done previously and I can vouch that there was no dumbing down or glossing over the details, if anything it was more detailed since the principles learned were used to show how stuff actually works. Book learning is all well and good but until you actually see how its been applied to the real world then its pretty useless.

No, PeakOutput is absolutely right. University is not supposed to train you how to do a job. If you want that, go to an IT or get an apprenticeship. University is there to provide you with an education. Now obviously it depends on the course, but most university students don't come out qualified to do a job. They have soft skills which can hopefully be applied to a number of careers and obviously many people stay on to do research or teaching. I think all the stuff you say is true but it only highlights PeakOutput's point. If you need a lot of handholding and spoonfeeding and direct attention, then a very traditional university course with 8 contact hours a week isn't for you. That isn't supposed to be rude, BTW, but I've studied at 3 universities and an IT- type place and as you say, the university staff left students to their own devices. That's generally how it goes. Of course the university teaching isn't as practical and as applicable to the 'real world', because it isn't supposed to be. That doesn't make it better or worse, just different.