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Are we Vikings or Celts or What?

TeddyTedson

What are we? Where did we come from?

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TeddyTedson

esel wrote: »

Asking a load of questions is one of the signs, unless you are five years old. Are we there yet? (repeat ad nauseam).

lol, yea was thinking that myself just as I posted that!
I think it's because it's late on my brain has gone really stupid. I better go to sleep.

Seloth

Stork?

Lirange

Genetic map of Europe.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/science/13visual.html?_r=3

Basically one big orgy. Except for the Finns.

ardinn

So no-one is ridin the finns - I think I did a finn in Cran Canaria

LordSutch

Chap on the radio talking about the first people settling here only about nine or ten thousand years ago, he had heard the 'Basque theory' but that realistically, the first humans in Ireland probably came across a land bridge from Scotland (only twenty miles today), failing that they just rowed across the very short distance from Scotland .

Vikings, Normans, etc, arrived a lot later.

Zillah

All the joking aside, I'm actually quite impressed that a couple people linked the Basque thing on page 1. I expected After Hours to do a lot worse than that.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter. The genetics of any group is a mix of lots of places, and even if you picked one spot our main ancestors came from, then you ask where they came from, and then the next and the next. We're all primates from Africa, and before that shrews from continents that no longer exist, and before that an ocean of frothing microbial activity.

Awesome thing that a lot of people don't know is that if you go back far enough, every atom of our solar system, including our own sun and our very bodies, was once in the nuclear heart of a massive star that died billions of years ago.

Nifty. Hence Moby's song. Because he knows more about science than you do.

EDIT: Wait, no. Moby is a moron. Some illiterate gibberish about quantum mechanics. His heart was in the right place though.

jimthemental

Mahatma coat wrote: »

Well I'm a Norman

Thats like a viking but with a tendency to build magnificent Castles and Cathedrals

Same, got celtic names all through aswell. Our family history is very traceable, it's nice to know where your people come from.

Riamfada

Einhard wrote: »

Vikings didn't just come from Norway. They came from Scandinavia. And the Norman duchy was established by descendents of Viking raiders who settled along the channel coast. In 912, a Viking by the name of Rollo accepted Christianity, swore an oath of vassalage to the French king, and became lord of Rouen. His great grandson received the title of dux in 1006, and it was his great grandson, William the Conqueror, who invaded England in 1066. So, as the etymology of the name implies, the Normans were Northmen, ie Vikings.

Hope ye like that humble pie!

Essentially we all came from Africa, depends how far back you wana go

bonerm

Einhard wrote: »

Vikings didn't just come from Norway. They came from Scandinavia. And the Norman duchy was established by descendents of Viking raiders who settled along the channel coast. In 912, a Viking by the name of Rollo accepted Christianity, swore an oath of vassalage to the French king, and became lord of Rouen. His great grandson received the title of dux in 1006, and it was his great grandson, William the Conqueror, who invaded England in 1066. So, as the etymology of the name implies, the Normans were Northmen, ie Vikings.

Hope ye like that humble pie!

You appear to be full of Norman wisdom.

Kev_ps3

TeddyTedson wrote: »

What are we? Where did we come from?

Most of us are of Celtic origin. Some have Viking blood in us. Some have English blood.

WindSock

The Vikingr in my area came from Denmark, but most in Ireland were from Norway, afaik.

Wibbs

Grimes wrote: »

Essentially we all came from Africa, depends how far back you wana go

Welll..... maybe not all of our modern human DNA. Europeans have Neanderthal DNA which Africans dont. The Asian human story is even more interesting. Out of africa is a theory that IMHO is way too simplistic. Hell we're all fish if you go back far enough

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Most of us are of Celtic origin. Some have Viking blood in us. Some have English blood.

The "Celts" are not us. Not even close. Even the Roman records where we first hear of the name are vague on where they're from. Mostly central and eastern European though. We're about as Celt as we are Roman. Yes "celtic" influences came here, but that's about it. The whole Celtic notion is more to do with a Victorian flight of fancy than the reality. English blood is closer to us as to make little difference. They consider themselves Saxon, yet their saxon DNA input it pretty tiny, all in the east and falling off rapidly.

Einhard

bonerm wrote: »

You appear to be full of Norman wisdom.

Took me a moment of slowly scratching my head before I got that!

Riddle101

How can one be so precise as to know where we trace our origins? Considering that Ireland has played host to Celts, Vikings, Normans and English and Scottish settlers. the bloodlines would be very broad. I don't know, I reckon we're more decended from Normans then we are of Vikings and Celts, but that dosen't mean we're not influenced by them either.

Kess73

Angel Handsome Cub wrote: »

Ireland.

Town.

Krusader

TeddyTedson wrote: »

What are we? Where did we come from?

We are Gaels, with a minor mix of Britons, Norse and Norman

Enkidu

Zillah wrote: »

Anyway, it doesn't really matter. The genetics of any group is a mix of lots of places,

Well that's actually the surprising thing, most groups do not really have genes which are a mix of loads of places. For instance us and Britain have had the same genetics for roughly the last 12,000 years, despite all the invasions.

and even if you picked one spot our main ancestors came from, then you ask where they came from, and then the next and the next. We're all primates from Africa, and before that shrews from continents that no longer exist, and before that an ocean of frothing microbial activity.

Well I don't think that makes it not matter, any question in human history could be declared to not matter because it's just a subcomponent for the universe's history.

Rockery Woman

I thought we descended from the Basque people.

Would love to know where the brown eyed black haired Irish descended from ....

I would like to think I descended from the Vikings to be honest:D

who the fug

Mongrels, which is good

Krusader

If your name is McLoughlin. Mac Lochlainn ,chances are you are decended from the Vikings as it means 'son of a Viking'
also Doyle, O'Doyle, MacDowell, O'Dowell Ó Dubhghaill, decendant of a dark foreigner, which is what the Gaels called the vikings

Rockery Woman

Crosáidí wrote: »

If your name is McLoughlin. Mac Lochlainn ,chances are you are decended from the Vikings as it means 'son of a Viking'[/QUOT

Isnt there a few "Mac" names that translate to "son of priest or son of bishop"? ( sorry Crosaidi - my Irish isnt very good)

Lirange

Riddle101 wrote: »

How can one be so precise as to know where we trace our origins?

Despite scientific advances it is very difficult to be precise. The research is often skewed. The data presented is usually accurate but presented selectively. Such as this study or contradictory research led by Oppenheimer and others. Both camps use valid results but shape the information and the way it's gathered to suit their various hypotheses. For instance, if they're examining mitochondrial DNA of the mothers along a genetic line and the sequence was: Briton-Saxon-Briton-Saxon-Briton-Dane-Briton-Dane-Briton. Due to limitations the data can only be read to provide a nominal result that the maternal genetic line is Briton. But as you can see the genetic line is very diverse. Not all the mothers were Britons. Then when Thomas and others conduct their Y chromosome research they'll inform us that a genetic paternal line was Saxon. There may be more Saxons along that line but there was likely many genetic inputs. You'll find acknowledgments of these limitations in their research but conveniently not in articles or abstracts. Research done by geneticists with a strict medical interest tends to be the most balanced (such as the map I linked in my previous post). The genetic pool in Britain and Ireland is similar with some small variations. The pool is also diverse with many inputs like most of Europe. The only place in the UK or Ireland with a non diverse gene pool seems to be certain rural areas of Wales hence some genetic drift (though not on the scale of isolated Iceland).

Krusader

Rockery Woman wrote: »

Crosáidí wrote: »

If your name is McLoughlin. Mac Lochlainn ,chances are you are decended from the Vikings as it means 'son of a Viking'[/QUOT

Isnt there a few "Mac" names that translate to "son of priest or son of bishop"? ( sorry Crosaidi - my Irish isnt very good)

Mac an Easpaig - Bishop
Mac an tSagairt - McTaggart

jimthemental

Riddle101 wrote: »

How can one be so precise as to know where we trace our origins? Considering that Ireland has played host to Celts, Vikings, Normans and English and Scottish settlers. the bloodlines would be very broad. I don't know, I reckon we're more decended from Normans then we are of Vikings and Celts, but that dosen't mean we're not influenced by them either.

Some families are very traceable. Take O'Neill for example they can be fairly well traced for at least a thousand years. My own family would be similar for at least 6 or 7 hundred years, and we have traced some prominent emigrants too. There are a lot of good records kept both by british and pre-Norman historians and authorities of families, especially with regard to land inheritance. I think that Viking and Celtic influence would be stronger than Norman or other regarding lineage though.

sealgaire

Confab wrote: »

The Celts never existed in Ireland, they were made up to make an English king seem less German.

WHAT!

Pyr0

Zillah wrote: »

Awesome thing that a lot of people don't know is that if you go back far enough, every atom of our solar system, including our own sun and our very bodies, was once in the nuclear heart of a massive star that died billions of years ago.

So what you're saying is, I'm an actual "star child" which would also make me a member of Kiss?

http://www.rockheap.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/paulstanley.jpg

baltimore sun

Wasn't there a RTE doc saying that the Irish are descendant from Basques?

fontanalis

baltimore sun wrote: »

Wasn't there a RTE doc saying that the Irish are descendant from Basques?

No, it claimed that Basques and irish people shared ancestry. The idea being that there was an ice age refuge in that region and as the ice receded (12,000 to 16,000 years ago) people moved northwards as southern ireland, southern england and brittany were more or less joined.
This was first proposed when genetic testing was in it's infancy. Stephen Oppenheimer popularied the idea in his book Origins of the British, a wollicking good wead as Jonathan Ross would say but it seems out dated.
Basically a genetic marker spread and carried along the male line called R1b is carried by about 95% or Basques and about 75% of Irish, Scots and Welsh and about 60% of English people. In recent years the R1b tree has grown/branched and it seems that Basques and irish people may be at different ends. Basques were long considered "special" due to their language Euskara being a language isolate but it now seems that the region was populated by it's ancestors in the iron age.
The first Irish settlement has been discovered in Mount Sandel and wa s dated to around 8,000 years ago. I have also read that the pre iron age population of Ireland was very small so any iron age invaders with knowldge of recent farming knowledge could prosper and grow (but then again there is evidence of farming in Mayo at the Ceide fields dating to over 5,000 years ago). I also read another claim that these settlers may have come form the Doggerland region which is now under the north sea. Apaprently familys like McGuiness and McCartan carry the genetic market I which is prevalent in Denmark
The Celt thing seems complicated as it's more of a language and culture term but it has many romantic nationalist notions attached and many think of it as an almost "ethnic" term so that complicates things. The spread of the celts has been tracked by archaelogical items, so it's a case of was it pots or people that moved or was it farmers or farming that moved.
To give it my 2 cents, I think it's complicated and I think the bulk of irish ancestry is traceable to around the Iron Age and may be regional and on the west coast the whole atlantic sea board plays an important role.

fontanalis

Crosáidí wrote: »

If your name is McLoughlin. Mac Lochlainn ,chances are you are decended from the Vikings as it means 'son of a Viking'
also Doyle, O'Doyle, MacDowell, O'Dowell Ó Dubhghaill, decendant of a dark foreigner, which is what the Gaels called the vikings

Mlaughlin is linked to the UiNiall. I think Hogan is also descended from the Norse. can anyone with good knowledge of the vikings tell me if it was as straight forward as the Norwegian Vikings sticking to the Atlantic Coast and the Danes to the East.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McLaughlin

fontanalis

A fascinating thread on the History section.
http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056036449

Another couple good links.
http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/peoplingeurope.shtml
http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/basques.shtml
http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/celtictribes.shtml