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2010 Morgan Kelly Article- Ireland is finished

MrMatisse

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/1108/1224282865400.html

Seems like its game over for Ireland

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[Deleted User]

Gary4279 wrote: »

I think I might vote for FF in the next election. I'm not trolling, just there all the same. May as well keep the same crowd of gangsters in to avoid the take over of another crowd only to be let down again.

I'm tempted to vote them back in as well, just so they reap the whirlwind of what they have sown.

Putting them in opposition, gives them an escape from the flames of default, I want them to feel the heat!

Ulysses Gaze

I get the feeling Kelly has been sitting on this article for a while until he was pretty much sure of what he was talking about, economically, was going to pass.

The political discourse in the article was a mistake. Deflects from the pretty astute economic analysis. The thing is we need more Morgan Kelly's and Peter Matthews and less Austin Hughes, Dan McLaughlin's and Brian Lenihans. Hell we needed more of them during the 'boom'.

Originally Posted by PanchoVilla View Post
Good man yerself. Leg it and let someone else pick up the pieces? Not your problem, right? Well, I think it's safe to say people like you won't be missed.

Why stay and slave to pay back the debts of bankers and also end up working for the 'New' Elite who will slide straight into the slipstream of their monied fathers? I'm talking about the sons and daughters of Fitzpatrick, Ronan, McNamara, Mulryan, Sheehy, Fingleton, Goggin et al.

jkforde

galwayrush wrote: »

FF have destroyed the country for us and for future generations, while making sure they and their cronies are well insulated from any hardship. Shame on them.

Ah no, shame on us. If the republic is to be saved we have to start at being honest with ourselves first. MO'C is spinning in his Glasnevin grave. Shame on us.

galwayrush

jkforde wrote: »

Ah no, shame on us. If the republic is to be saved we have to start at being honest with ourselves first. MO'C is spinning in his Glasnevin grave. Shame on us.

No, I like many more did nothing wrong, but we have to suffer the consequences of a treasonous Government. Shame on them.

Nulty

jkforde wrote: »

But he says: "With the 55 billion repaid, the possibility of resolving the bank crisis by sharing costs with the bondholders is now water under the bridge". So "not honouring the debt of the banks, to hell with them." is a kind of belated 'horse bolted' fantasy.

By "bondholders", do they mean the people that the bank owed money too? Did they become bondholders of the state when the banks debts were nationalised and so what your saying in the above is that the government payed the banks debts so we can't now not pay the banks debts?

Liam Byrne

Gary4279 wrote: »

I think I might vote for FF in the next election. I'm not trolling, just there all the same. May as well keep the same crowd of gangsters in to avoid the take over of another crowd only to be let down again.

There's being "let down" and there's "dragging down". FF have dragged us into their cesspit.

Gary4279 wrote: »

People keep blaming FF and the banks ect... for the **** we are in and I agree, but we are also responsible. Nobody turned and said, wait 'what goes up must come down'. We all jumped all over credit when it was being thrown at us, bought way over priced houses and cars ect...

Really ? And you've asked about and examined the finances of everyone in the country to reach this conclusion that nobody (your claim) asked questions ?

Personally speaking I can confirm that you are talking through your backside.

Morgan Kelly & Liam Byrne (one well-known and one not well known) are just TWO names that spring to mind who voiced concerns and objections, so that completely blows your emphatic "no-one" out of the water and I can therefore 100% stand over the fact that you are talking through your arse.

jkforde

Liam Byrne wrote: »

There's being "let down" and there's "dragging down". FF have dragged us into their cesspit.

true, though it didn't exactly take a steel cable to drag us down did it!? anyway, enough, this nightmare is going to give me nightmares tonight.

Nulty

Nulty wrote: »

By "bondholders", do they mean the people that the bank owed money too? Did they become bondholders of the state when the banks debts were nationalised and so what your saying in the above is that the government payed the banks debts so we can't now not pay the banks debts?

Yeah, so....anyone want to field this question then?

McNulty737

Chairman Meow wrote: »

Ah yes, that old whipping boy, the public sector pay. sure they all earn 80K PA and have pensions that guarantee them a life of luxury once they retire at 55.
Youre an actual cretin if you think this. an actual, real life cretin. The government used public sector as a whipping boy to be turned into some kind of pariah to take the heat off themselves. "ohh the public sector earn too much, theyre all lazy & overpaid". The only people i know who work in the public sector have taken so many wage cuts an pension 'levys' that theyd be almost as well off on the dole. Cop the **** on.

Excuse me, would you mind taking your head and burying it back in the sand? the grownups are trying to have a discussion here,

thanks!

Sheeps

Once Irish banks pass under direct ECB control next year, they will be forced to stop lending in order to shrink their balance sheets back to a level that can be funded from customer deposits. With no new mortgage lending, the housing market will be driven by cash transactions, and prices will collapse accordingly.

That's pretty good news for me as someone who doesn't own a house.

[Deleted User]

Sheeps wrote: »

That's pretty good news for me as someone who doesn't own a house.

and you won't for many years to come!

ValJester

Deleted User wrote: »

and you won't for many years to come!

Most people on the continent are in their 40's before they do.In fact in Scandinavia most people are in their 30's before they own a car that's younger than they are. I'm not sure if that's necessarily a bad thing.

JJayoo

Isn't Bertie thinking about running for president?

[Deleted User]

ValJester wrote: »

Most people on the continent are in their 40's before they do.In fact in Scandinavia most people are in their 30's before they own a car that's younger than they are. I'm not sure if that's necessarily a bad thing.

I agree, the habit of saving for "stuff" needs to be relearned!

In future the deposit required to buy will just get larger and larger plus strict limits related to ability to repay (no more of this 7x annual income), quicker if house prices continue going south!

Many on the continent don't buy at all, there are professional landlords with decent properties and better laws to protect tenents as well.

[Deleted User]

Sheeps wrote: »

That's pretty good news for me as someone who doesn't own a house.

It's not good news for anyone really if you think about it, if house prices get so cheap that they can be bought for cash by most Joe Soaps, houses won't get cheap in isolation.

Chairman Meow

McNulty737 wrote: »

Excuse me, would you mind taking your head and burying it back in the sand? the grownups are trying to have a discussion here,

thanks!

Excuse me, would you mind spouting some more 2nd hand opinions you picked up form the sun?

Thanks!

[Deleted User]

Chairman Meow wrote: »

Excuse me, would you mind spouting some more 2nd hand opinions you picked up form the sun?

Thanks!

I'm still waiting for an answer from you

RoverJames wrote: »

What has he done to justify going from 20K to 32K ? What job does he do ? Anyone on 32K a year purely because they have 8 years service doing a job that can be done by most of the folks on the scratch is being paid 12K too much in my view. Folks who reckon that paying admin staff etc 32K/annum in the public sector is an appropriate use of the cash the country is borrowing are out of touch with reality in my view. Combine that with the fact that many of these PS departments are grossly overstaffed and deliver close to sweet f all and it's terrifying. Don't you remember that the public sector folk wanted pay rises because the private sector was booming ? Forgot that I suppose :rolleyes:

I'm expecting wonders:)

Diapason

Deleted User wrote: »

Many on the continent don't buy at all, there are professional landlords with decent properties and better laws to protect tenents as well.

It's not clear to me at all why this is a "better" system than wanting to own your own home. It seems to me that the Irish system worked perfectly well for many years, and that owning a home at retirement seems far more desirable than still paying rent. I don't feel the need to rush headlong into a society of renters if we can avoid it. Of course, we may not be able to, but that's another story.

The problem as I see it was the relaxation of mortgage rules. If mortgages were still granted as 3 x first salary + 1.5 x second salary (or along those lines) we wouldn't have had a property bubble, and it would be possible for a parent to stay at home with children if they so desired. Instead we had 10 x joint salary, after you'd fiddled your P60, and now the country's gone to sh*t. It's not surprising really.

[Deleted User]

Diapason wrote: »

Instead we had 10 x joint salary, after you'd fiddled your P60, and now the country's gone to sh*t. It's not surprising really.

Anycouple who took mortgages out at 10 times their combined annual income would seriously have to put a large proportion of the blame at their own door.

danbohan

RoverJames wrote: »

Anycouple who took mortgages out at 10 times their combined annual income would seriously have to put a large proportion of the blame at their own door.

of course not , it was the banks fault !!!!!!!!!!!!, now they want us to bail them out when they default / repossessed , you could not make it up !

Diapason

RoverJames wrote: »

Anycouple who took mortgages out at 10 times their combined annual income would seriously have to put a large proportion of the blame at their own door.

Oh, I'm not saying they weren't stupid, but they also went right ahead and ruined it for everyone. Because if lots of people are doing that (and anecdotal evidence suggests they were to a greater or lesser extent) then it just drives prices up across the board. And the banks and brokers were encouraging it rather than trying to rein it in. I was told by my mortgage broker that I was mad, completely mad, for not taking out a bigger mortgage in 2005. "House prices are only going one way" was his view. I knew enough to say no, but not everyone has that kind of understanding, and on some level these people were holding themselves out as experts.

Of course, caveat emptor and all that, but it doesn't make it right that a whole industry (with the government at the top) was trying to get you to borrow more than was sensible. I can (hopefully) continue to pay my mortgage, but I'm still bitter that so many were effectively duped into thinking they could afford something they couldn't.

And just wait and see what happens when the ECB starting raising rates again on the back of a French/German recovery.

Chairman Meow

RoverJames wrote: »

I'm still waiting for an answer from you

I'm expecting wonders:)

Hmm lets see, almost 10 years service, combined with inflation, and 3 different promotions, from earning 22K on a counter dealing with the public to currently working as an admin in the tax office on 32K? But i guess by your reasoning thats not worth of a pay increace because you can find someone somewhere willing to do a somewhat similar job for 15K a year :rolleyes:
Why dont you run off and see if you can find a job like that in the wanted ads of the herald, ill be waiting right here on the edge of my seat for your reply.

Donal Og O Baelach

My cousin works as a cleaning lady in Leinster House and she just told me that Oily Wren left a big brown skid mark down the inside of the toilet bowl in the mens jacks.
Just goes to show you, aren't we all the same?

thewing

Must have gone for a few pints of the black stuff last nite - good man Brian Cowen...

[Deleted User]

Chairman Meow wrote: »

Hmm lets see, almost 10 years service, combined with inflation, and 3 different promotions, from earning 22K on a counter dealing with the public to currently working as an admin in the tax office on 32K? But i guess by your reasoning thats not worth of a pay increace because you can find someone somewhere willing to do a somewhat similar job for 15K a year :rolleyes:
Why dont you run off and see if you can find a job like that in the wanted ads of the herald, ill be waiting right here on the edge of my seat for your reply.

Admin in a tax office, 32K a year, madness, there are qualified accountants and engineers earning less. 22K a year is about right for admin work, you mention inflation as justification, so you would have no issues with the 32K being pegged back to 2005 levels so, seems as that's where the country is financially, or is it 2002 levels, regardless

Ulysses Gaze

RoverJames wrote: »

Admin in a tax office, 32K a year, madness, there are qualified accountants and engineers earning less. 22K a year is about right for admin work, you mention inflation as justification, so you would have no issues with the 32K being pegged back to 2005 levels so, seems as that's where the country is financially, or is it 2002 levels, regardless

Really? After 10 years service an Engineer or fully qualified accountant is only earning €32k.

Mate, I piss and moan about the PS quite a bit but c'mon. €32 k after 10 yrs service isn't a lot.

McNulty737

Chairman Meow wrote: »

Excuse me, would you mind spouting some more 2nd hand opinions you picked up form the sun?

Thanks!

Yes indeed, our 20 billion budget deficit is just a second hand opinion I picked up from the sun. Public sector pay being our biggest expenditure is all just tabloid lies aswell sure, just to have a go at the poor selfless heroic public servants. You're right i'm a cretin, i'll just go and shoot myself now, bye!

[Deleted User]

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Really? After 10 years service an Engineer or fully qualified accountant is only earning €32k.

Mate, I piss and moan about the PS quite a bit but c'mon. €32 k after 10 yrs service isn't a lot.

No, not after 10 years, however 10 years experience in admin in the public service hardly justifies 32K/annum. You get better at engineering with experience, it's difficult to replace an engineer with 10 years experience with someone without similar experience. Admin work shouldn't command a salary of 32K.

Latchy

This thread more than any other has put meat on the bones on the topic , of the state of the Irish nation and finally puts everything into perspective.

BraziliaNZ

the same as ever it's descended into public sector wages being too much, and that they are bankrupting the country. Yawn.