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Black & Tans painting in the Pharmacy Building

grenache

I have a major objection with this piece of "art" being given space in an Irish university. Let us not forget that this group of thugs/criminals raped and plundered the country less than 100 years ago. They shot my own grandfather in the leg for the heinous crime of refusing to answer a question. Yet there they are in all their glory, on the wall to the right just inside the main door, smiling and laughing and immortalised forever by an over-accommodating University College Cork. :mad:

What next, Oxford to put up an IRA mural? :rolleyes:

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Byron85

grenache wrote: »

I have a major objection with this piece of "art" being given space in an Irish university. Let us not forget that this group of thugs/criminals raped and plundered the country less than 100 years ago. They shot my own grandfather in the leg for the heinous crime of refusing to answer a question. Yet there they are in all their glory, on the wall to the right just inside the main door, smiling and laughing and immortalised forever by an over-accommodating University College Cork. :mad:

What next, Oxford to put up an IRA mural? :rolleyes:

Interesting. Haven't heard about it before.

Manach

Double interesting: This is a link via google, but no other background about it.
http://www.ucc.ie/en/pharmacy/fullstory-106670-en.html

Ricky91t

Who cares?

It's not as if they're actually standing there, smiling. It's a painting who anyone could of painted, not even being at the place and just from imagination.

Art always angers people, but at the same time pleases others. It's all down to personal tastes. If you have such an issue with it then go and talk to the pharmacy dept I don't see what this forum can do when it's not even directly linked to UCC.

Owen

Exactly, who cares? This is the 21st century, time to move on. If you've an issue with what the British did, why then are you going to UCC, which is a building predominantly constructed by the British and previously named Queens University Cork? It's just a painting.

invinciblePRSTV

Show you care and throw some paint or dog faeces on it.

Max001

grenache wrote: »

They shot my own grandfather in the leg for the heinous crime of refusing to answer a question.

What was the question?

Seriously though. There's been so much air brushing of history in various / many countries that it can't be entirely healthy. Most societies eventually come full circle to embrace all aspects of their history and learn from the past, instead of being condemned to repeat it.

grenache

I really resent these lazy arse "who cares" replies. Those of us who have taste care! Its not appropriate, full stop.

I'll tell you what, in the morning i'll go down and hang a swastika flag by the north wing of the quad. Any objections and we'll just say who cares, right? I mean it was sixty years ago, get over yourselves :rolleyes:

Owen

grenache wrote: »

I really resent these lazy arse "who cares" replies. Those of us who have taste care!

I wouldn't see it as having taste/or not having taste. You seem to have a hangup about British Occupancy in Ireland. That ended nearly a century ago, and no one of this generation has been affected by it. To continue to be upset, and carry grudges for crimes long since past is the type of stuff which will hold back humanity from reaching any sort of plateau where we can all work together towards common goals.

ballsymchugh

PaintDoctor wrote: »

Exactly, who cares? This is the 21st century, time to move on. If you've an issue with what the British did, why then are you going to UCC, which is a building predominantly constructed by the British and previously named Queens University Cork? It's just a painting.

why did they change the name of the college then??

Eliot Rosewater

grenache wrote: »

I really resent these lazy arse "who cares" replies. Those of us who have taste care! Its not appropriate, full stop.

Wrong. You don't think it's appropriate.

I don't see why those who take exception to such things should be allowed to engage in artistic repression.

grenache wrote: »

I'll tell you what, in the morning i'll go down and hang a swastika flag by the north wing of the quad

Oh yes, because the doings of the Black and Tans in Ireland are directly proportional to a regime which mass-murdered 6 million jews, millions of other "undesirables" and instigated one of the biggest wars in history.

I extremely dislike this sense of Irish exceptionalism. We're a small relatively meaningless country that went through a relatively light independence war. There was a documentary on RTE the other night about the Vietnamese independence movement; perhaps people should watch it, it would give them a sense of what tyranny really is.

evolving_doors

grenache wrote: »

I really resent these lazy arse "who cares" replies. Those of us who have taste care! Its not appropriate, full stop.

I'll tell you what, in the morning i'll go down and hang a swastika flag by the north wing of the quad. Any objections and we'll just say who cares, right? I mean it was sixty years ago, get over yourselves :rolleyes:

Ya what's the big deal anyway,, it's just a picture of a bunch of soldiers... it is what it is ..or maybe it was what it was!!!
The fact that these soldiers did such and such is redundant emotive sh*te, is there such a thing as a 'good' soldier anyway? I think even sinn fein have given up on that us and them stuff

Actually I'd be delighted if you hoisted the swastika in UCC,, you'd probably see that the majority of the students there wouldn't give 2 hoots while their on their way to the thirsty scholar to get ratarsed yet again... When i went to ucc our professor was bemoning the fact that students didn't really care to protest anymore

MAybe if you get a petition on facebook together someone might take notice,,good luck with that

ronan125

PaintDoctor wrote: »

That ended nearly a century ago,.

How exactly did that end nearly a century ago... what about the 6 Northern Counties???

Manach

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Wrong. You don't think it's appropriate.

Oh yes, because the doings of the Black and Tans in Ireland are directly proportional to a regime which mass-murdered 6 million jews, millions of other "undesirables" and instigated one of the biggest wars in history.

I disagree with you in your lack of historical knowledge. The Black and Tans are still a byword in areas of the country for brutality, which other regular units of the British Army did not condone or support. These were a paramilitary unit designed to break the spirit of the people.

Ricky91t

grenache wrote: »

I really resent these lazy arse "who cares" replies. Those of us who have taste care! Its not appropriate, full stop.

I'll tell you what, in the morning i'll go down and hang a swastika flag by the north wing of the quad. Any objections and we'll just say who cares, right? I mean it was sixty years ago, get over yourselves :rolleyes:

It appears you don't know the difference between a flag and a painting.

I'm not going to repeat what I've already said, But a swastika flag would be recognized by a lot more people than a painting of some people that are supposedly "Black and Tans".(They probably are, But a swastika is a swastika)

You really are over reacting to this, and even suggesting something as stupid as a swastika being comparable is amusing.

I'm just going to say I respect that you don't like this, and it's obviously made you very angry but you really are making a mountain out of a molehill.

Eliot Rosewater

Manach wrote: »

I disagree with you in your lack of historical knowledge.

My lack of historical knowledge? Did the Black and Tans engage in a mass-murder genocide that I missed?

I was trying to expose the lack perspective. The Black and Tans and the Nazis are two completely different things, and their conflation is an insult to the millions of people who suffered under the latter.

Manach

The Black and Tans were part of a historical trend, representing the worst parts of the British occupation of Southern Ireland which spanned several centuries -
laws that suppressed native culture and religion,
laws that confiscated property in massive plantations,
laws that effectively made native life less than worthless.
19th century politician cartoon's portrayal, re: Punch magazine, of the Irish as more apelike and for some strange reason less than appreciate of the benefits of English culture.
So in answer to your question, no,- the Black and Tans did not engage in a mass-murder genocide - they were just the last hurrah of an on-going one.

charlemont

A letter of complaint or petition to the college might help remove it.

grenache

PaintDoctor wrote: »

You seem to have a hangup about British Occupancy in Ireland.

Nope, where do i say this in my original post?

PaintDoctor wrote: »

That ended nearly a century ago.

Er, the six counties?

PaintDoctor wrote: »

No one of this generation has been affected by it.

So that makes it ok to validate them or just ignore their crimes? And to decorate them in "art"?

PaintDoctor wrote: »

To continue to be upset, and carry grudges for crimes long since past is the type of stuff which will hold back humanity from reaching any sort of plateau where we can all work together towards common goals.

You misunderstand my point, i dont' carry a grudge against the British. I have many English and Welsh friends. The nationality of the B&Ts is not the point - their actions are. These "people" do not deserve a wall space in a university, anywhere.

Armelodie wrote: »

the majority of the students there wouldn't give 2 hoots while their on their way to the thirsty scholar to get ratarsed yet again...

That's the problem with too many of today's young people, they don't care enough about what their forefathers went through in other to give them the freedom they now take for granted. Too busy getting pi$$ed on naggins on cheap vodka rather than having some interest in their heritage.

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Wrong.

You think i'm wrong.

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Oh yes, because the doings of the Black and Tans in Ireland are directly proportional to a regime which mass-murdered 6 million jews, millions of other "undesirables" and instigated one of the biggest wars in history..

Both murdered indiscriminately, both acted unlawfully and without remorse. The numbers of casualties in Ireland may be minute in comparison to the crimes of the Nazis, but they were none the less incessantly evil.

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

I extremely dislike this sense of Irish exceptionalism. We're a small relatively meaningless country that went through a relatively light independence war.

Its not Irish exceptionalism, its someone complaining about a painting immortalising thugs who committed heinous crimes in our country less than a century ago.

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

We're a small relatively meaningless country that went through a relatively light independence war.

Nonsense. Irish disapora figures worldwide number 80 million, for our size we punch far above our weight. You need only look back to two years ago when our rejection of Lisbon I caused consternation throughout Europe. Meaningless, er no.

Byron85

Eliot Vs Grenache tomorrow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyhhFzE5O5U

Eliot Rosewater

grenache wrote: »

You think i'm wrong.

Exactly. I think the painting is okay; you think it is not. Why should you get to decide what art is or is not appropriate?

grenache wrote: »

Both murdered indiscriminately, both acted unlawfully and without remorse. The numbers of casualties in Ireland may be minute in comparison to the crimes of the Nazis, but they were none the less incessantly evil.

Of course. It's a matter of proportion. Hanging artwork of the Black and Tans is not comparable to waving a Nazi flag around.

grenache wrote: »

Its not Irish exceptionalism, its someone complaining about a painting immortalising thugs who committed heinous crimes in our country less than a century ago.

Does it have artistic value? I might call over to Elec Eng to see myself.

grenache wrote: »

Nonsense. Irish disapora figures worldwide number 80 million, for our size we punch far above our weight. You need only look back to two years ago when our rejection of Lisbon I caused consternation throughout Europe. Meaningless, er no.

Within the history of Europe Ireland has played a miniscule role. Not no role, but a small one relative to the bigger countries like France. Within the terms of tyranny, other countries, such as Vietnam, have gone through far worse than Ireland. This is what I mean. There is a tendency to talk Ireland up as something great, but it's a small country off of the coast of mainland Europe.

panda100

If the picture was in the History department it would be okay but I think its a little distasteful and strange having it up in the pharmacy building.

gbee

grenache wrote: »

over-accommodating University College Cork. :mad: What next, Oxford to put up an IRA mural? :rolleyes:

Check out the school's history, she's a Queen's College.

leahyl

grenache wrote: »

That's the problem with too many of today's young people, they don't care enough about what their forefathers went through in other to give them the freedom they now take for granted. Too busy getting pi$$ed on naggins on cheap vodka rather than having some interest in their heritage.

Its not Irish exceptionalism, its someone complaining about a painting immortalising thugs who committed heinous crimes in our country less than a century ago.

+1 I can't believe how many Irish people today (particularly young people) seem almost ashamed of our past and think that those who still are quite patriotic and proud of their country and still remember the atrocities that the Black and Tans carried out in this country are somehow out of touch and should just forget about it and move on. Why should we? The Irish were brutalised by the Black and Tans and in later decades the UVF etc. yet all we hear about is how bad the IRA were (which im not denying for a second that they were - they did some unforgiveable things also) but so did the British Army and the UVF yet we all seem to forget about them.

If this is the case and there is a painting of the Black and Tans near the Pharmacy Building then i agree with the OP. It is, IMO, highly inappropriate.

That doesn't automatically make me a Brit hater - i have absolutely nothing against the British people but that doesn't mean I have to accept what happened - no matter how long ago it was

UnionOfV

leahyl wrote: »

+1 I can't believe how many Irish people today (particularly young people) seem almost ashamed of our past and think that those who still are quite patriotic and proud of their country and still remember the atrocities that the Black and Tans carried out in this country are somehow out of touch and should just forget about it and move on. Why should we? The Irish were brutalised by the Black and Tans and in later decades the UVF etc. yet all we hear about is how bad the IRA were (which im not denying for a second that they were - they did some unforgiveable things also) but so did the British Army and the UVF yet we all seem to forget about them.

Setting aside the issue of whether we should get so worked up over incidents that no longer affect present-day affairs and can only lead to xenophobic sentiment, my issue with linking the actions of the Black and Tans with a painting of a group of soldiers is that the painting in question does not (from the link) appear to glorify the actions of the organisation - it merely shows a common wartime scene. If you were to prove that the soldiers represented in the portrait had committed crimes themselves, your objection would be valid in my eyes - however passing judgement on a group of soldiers based on the actions of similarly employed persons is fairly discriminatory.

Richard Cranium

grenache wrote: »

... Yet there they are in all their glory

I haven't seen the picture myself, but my brother (who has) described it to me. It doesn't sound like it's glorifying anything.

I'd consider it strange if somebody saw that picture and thought "Oh look, some Black and Tans smiling and laughing. They must be decent folk". Personally I would have thought that you wouldn't need to explicitly show a soldier running rampage in a picture for everyone to know what exactly they got up to. With all due respect, I think you're being overly sensitive.

IrishEyes19

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

Wrong. You don't think it's appropriate.

I don't see why those who take exception to such things should be allowed to engage in artistic repression.

Oh yes, because the doings of the Black and Tans in Ireland are directly proportional to a regime which mass-murdered 6 million jews, millions of other "undesirables" and instigated one of the biggest wars in history.

I extremely dislike this sense of Irish exceptionalism. We're a small relatively meaningless country that went through a relatively light independence war. There was a documentary on RTE the other night about the Vietnamese independence movement; perhaps people should watch it, it would give them a sense of what tyranny really is.

Mod, with all respect to your views. I secondly hate the notion of "we're a small meaningless country,"

We're actually not.

it doesnt matter how small a nation is when a country is literarly under rule or attack from bigger empires. You cant compare it to the holocaust obviously because its totally different politically and size wise but for people affected by the war of independence, civil war, maybe you should watch a little Irish documentary on those families and the heartbreak it brought. Tyranny doesnt have to massive in order to hurt.

@OP, I dont personally like the idea of the painting, but it just causes controversy if you demand to remove it because there's always people who believe, leave history in the past, which is fair enough that is their opinion, but its very ignorant to turn around and say forget about it, it wasnt important or it was tiny compared to other wars. Well Ireland is a tiny country, so a war in this nation isnt so tiny when you view the population involved and the devestation caused by it. Just ask your own grandparents be they still alive what newspapers they bought after the civil war or what shops they bought from, I can guarantee they will have some interesting stories to tell to why they buy that paper.

furthermore the black and tans caused havoc on my local area during that time. Its insulting for some people to be so dismissive of it. I'm not a radical nationalist by any means but I appreciate what they did when they had to for future generations today. I dont honestly think many of those young people willingly picked up weapons or risked their lives for the mere fun of it. There is a certain pride to being Irish I feel from the fact that we struggled as a nation to gain independence from a much bigger nation that dominated much colonies in the world. Its sad that some people have forgotten that.

IrishEyes19

gbee wrote: »

Check out the school's history, she's a Queen's College.

Nope, gbee....formally Queens College when under British rule, after Ireland got independence, after the tans were gone....was changed to University College Cork......so she's not a Queens College anymore.....the new IRISH government changed that.

Amazes me sometimes how some people actually look back distastefully at Irish history and almost side with the aggressors. You'd swear to God, Britain did us a favour by invading and that we were ungrateful to fight back!

Brian

Pah, I don't know how you can stand it. We'd never have such a thing in Trinity!

leahyl

UnionOfV wrote: »

Setting aside the issue of whether we should get so worked up over incidents that no longer affect present-day affairs and can only lead to xenophobic sentiment, my issue with linking the actions of the Black and Tans with a painting of a group of soldiers is that the painting in question does not (from the link) appear to glorify the actions of the organisation - it merely shows a common wartime scene. If you were to prove that the soldiers represented in the portrait had committed crimes themselves, your objection would be valid in my eyes - however passing judgement on a group of soldiers based on the actions of similarly employed persons is fairly discriminatory.

Like i said in my earlier post "if this is the case and there is a painting...." - i haven't actually seen the painting but is it just the Black and Tans we see in this painting? If so then to me it is completely inappropriate. What place does a painting of the Black and Tans have on one of the walls in our University? Now if it's a painting of the Black and Tans fighting against the Irish then fair enough - that would depict what actually happened all those years ago but if it's just the Black and Tans then no sorry IMO it has no place there.

"If you were to prove that the soldiers represented in the portrait had committed crimes themselves, your objection would be valid in my eyes - however passing judgement on a group of soldiers based on the actions of similarly employed persons is fairly discriminatory"

My point isn't to prove that they committed crimes (we already know that), it is that they committed the crimes in this country against our people (absolutely brutalised them actually) so why in Gods name should we have a portrait of them on the walls of one of our Universities? (that is if, as i have said already, it is just a painting of the Black and Tans only)

Eliot Rosewater

IrishEyes19 wrote: »

I secondly hate the notion of "we're a small meaningless country,"

In fairness, I said relatively meaningless country. Ireland is obviously not meaningless, especially now with its involvement in the EU, as Grenache noted. My point was that in comparison to other countries it has not had as much of an impact on the world.

I don't mean to portray this as a bad thing either. I don't think it is. In fact, perhaps the world would be a better place if it were stocked with "small relatively meaningless countries" rather than powerful superpowers like the US, China and Russia.

Baza210 wrote: »

Pah, I don't know how you can stand it. We'd never have such a thing in Trinity!

Instead they just ban the Catholics from entering, eh?