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Irish peoples double standards / hypocrisy

Sharkey 10

Ive noticed over the last year but particularly with two recent events that irish people seem to like to see strong protest or something meaningful when its abroad.
The two instances that come to mind are the paint pouring on harney and the driving of the truck up to the gates of the dail.

Most people complain that we are too passive when it comes to taking cut backs but when someone goes a little bit further to highlight their anger then many of the same people will condemn those actions .
Most Irish people applauded the French over the last two weeks for their actions over the last few weeks but if the same happened here people would be up in arms .
Does this irk anyone else? I think these people should decide what they would like to see .

Edit : how could i forget about the student protests , their was minimal violence here but by some of the reporting you would think ww3 had kicked off. Btw im not sure how many students were there with an intent of protesting my sister said they were drinking on the bus up and when the got back to the college there were free drinks for everyone

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scorpioishere

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

bloody french, smell like garlic and say haw hee haw

Did you go and smell them or is it you who smell?:D

Sharkey 10

slimjimmc wrote: »

I'm saying it's easy for people over here to approve of something that's happening somewhere else when it doesn't directly affect them. People attitudes tend to change when it starts disrupting their own lives. If you're (not you personally) stuck in traffic for hours waiting for a protest to pass off I doubt you'll be cheering in support especially if you have no enthusiasm for whatever they're protesting about.

Indeed people are free to protest peacefully about whatever they like, but that doesn't mean they have popular support for it. Sometimes violence is effective at introducing change and may be appropriate (e.g. bringing down a dictatorial government to be replaced with a democratically elected one) but there would have be some really serious gains and popular support for it to be justified, imo.

I take your point and think its true but the protests recently in Ireland have had little if any major disruption and yet many people were up in arms about it. I just think its something in the Irish attitude.

karlog

Double standard all the waaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyy

Sharkey 10

I dont want to start anew thread but would like to get peoples opinions on what is the threshold for people violently protesting or rioting?
Rioting is almost always condemned in Ireland but surely there are times when it is acceptable and more over warranted. Do you think that rioting takes attention away from any given cause and the focus goes on the rioting exclusively ? I feel that peaceful protest is often totally ignored.

muffy

Sharkey 10 wrote: »

I dont want to start anew thread but would like to get peoples opinions on what is the threshold for people violently protesting or rioting?
Rioting is almost always condemned in Ireland but surely there are times when it is acceptable and more over warranted. Do you think that rioting takes attention away from any given cause and the focus goes on the rioting exclusively ? I feel that peaceful protest is often totally ignored.

There is no need for violence. Direct non-violent action is the way to go.

muffy

Sharkey 10 wrote: »

I dont want to start anew thread but would like to get peoples opinions on what is the threshold for people violently protesting or rioting?
Rioting is almost always condemned in Ireland but surely there are times when it is acceptable and more over warranted. Do you think that rioting takes attention away from any given cause and the focus goes on the rioting exclusively ? I feel that peaceful protest is often totally ignored.

There is no need for violence. Direct non-violent action is the way to go.

Noreen1

muffy wrote: »

There is no need for violence. Direct non-violent action is the way to go.

+1.
The violence at the student protest deflected from the message the protesters were trying to get across, in that all the media coverage was about the violence. There was no real discussion of the issues the students tried so hard to highlight.

Noreen

Sharkey 10

muffy wrote: »

There is no need for violence. Direct non-violent action is the way to go.

Sorry im sure what you mean by this ?
Is it doing as much as you can through legal actions

Terry

muffy wrote: »

And people give out when certain groups joins protests..."why are they hi-jacking it?"...it's called solidarity, get a dictionary.

No, it's called promotion of self interest.

muffy

Sharkey 10 wrote: »

Sorry im sure what you mean by this ?
Is it doing as much as you can through legal actions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_action

Nice over view here. I'm completely against any form of violence, I support direct action up to and including vandalism and destruction of property, but myself like to partake of action within the law, where possible.

muffy

Terry wrote: »

No, it's called promotion of self interest.

One mans trash is another mans treasure and all that. I don't always agree with certain groups being at marches and such, but we do seem to have forgotten about solidarity.

Rabble Rabble

Terry wrote: »

No, it's called promotion of self interest.

It is indeed advertising their brand. The SWP are particularly good at brand advertising, which is why they get to the front of the line, attack the cops, and make sure the flags are flags of their particular political brand and not the subject at hand. ( The idea is, like all advertising, to attract more people to the organisation. It's a sales pitch).

Meanwhile normal students had signs like "Hi Mom", and hand written signs against the cuts.

That said sit-ins are legitimate, as is resisting the cops when the try and stop you sitting in..

EDIT:

Good example here of the difference. Compare:

1) picture 1 - normal folk not looking too angry, banners about the cuts
2) picture 17- crowd is hostile. SWP flags flying. nothing about the cuts just advertising their radical brand.

Dudess

Yeah, there was a "Shut down Anglo, not St Mary's Orthopaedic Hospital" march in Cork a few weeks ago, and members of the Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign, Sinn Féin and the Socialist Workers Party were marching alongside them. To me anyway, it seemed more like what Terry says rather than solidarity - maybe it was a combination of both though.

Still though, there is a contingent that likes to dismiss/attack anything left-wing/anti-establishment whatsoever as "hippy waster bla bla" carry-on rather than actually taking a few moments out to think about what the cause is.

cedissapointed

While FAS and JOBFIT are stealing jobs from our community i have also noticed this apparent double standard,although im not entirely sure if this is an irish thing,i have seen situations like this in the U.S.A and U.K and even France,the problem is the media will come in and do damage control and make out that these protests are destructive they will only zone in on the fringe groups that go mad and out of control.They will give about 30 seconds to the protest speakers and even then with clever editing try to undermine them..If you are at a protest you don't need to engage with these groups just stick to the central group and there will be no hassles.
Unless your an idiot and try to provoke a fully armed riot squad guard.

Of course there are people that are not going to bother.And well being honest ya it is most of the people in ireland when i was out on the FAS thing i saw few turn up and i went up one day on my own with my banner in tow stating THE GREAT EMPLOYMENT ROBBERY FAS..Nobody blinked an eyelid..

Nobody could be arsed because they are either too lazy or have a seen it all before attitude,or honestly couldnt give a damn..

Our government have robbed us of our future for long enough,with FAS and JOBFIT sucking up the full time jobs that should be available,i mean what business will take full timers on with this employment scam draining public funds..

They are consigning those who are or should be working class to a lifetime of poverty..

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/pages/End-the-FAS-work-place-programme-WWP1-WWP2/109792949040367

Mike 1972

Was a bit surprised at reports of the SWP being allegedly involved in the violence. On occasion Ive met with/become vaguely acquainted of a few SWP types down through the years (dont ask) and while when theyre out protesting (sometimes justifiably othertimes less so) over something every other week and are not not adverse to shouting abuse at the Cops or making a low level nuisance of themselves they tend to draw the line at violence/serious vandalism (unless there are skinheads about).

Rabble Rabble wrote: »

It is indeed advertising their brand. The SWP are particularly good at brand advertising

Anyone find this statement pretty true but highly ironic.

Pompey Magnus

Don't forget those people who have the luxury of being able to condemn any form of violent or non-peaceful protests yet never seem to have the balls to carry this on to condemning the 1916 rebels who realised that only violent action could lead to the eventual founding of an independent state (and no, Ghandi doesn't count as proof they were wrong as he had about 800 million pissed off countrymen behind him in a country half way around the world from Britain, if Ghandi was Irish we'd still be sending MPs to Westminster today).

Mike 1972

TBH Id condemn "1916 rebels" (for one thing they were wrong on the violent action/independent state bit) long before Id condemn anything the SWP might do but there you go.

Sharkey 10

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

Don't forget those people who have the luxury of being able to condemn any form of violent or non-peaceful protests yet never seem to have the balls to carry this on to condemning the 1916 rebels who realised that only violent action could lead to eventual founding of an independent state (and no, Ghandi doesn't count as proof they were wrong as he had about 800 million pissed off countrymen behind him in a country half way around the world from Britain, if Ghandi was Irish we'd still be sending MPs to Westminster today).

Its almost like you cant bring this up with these people , thats why earlier in thread i pointed out duffys hypocrisy by champion connolly and then condeming political violence . This also applies to many polititions.

Pompey Magnus

Sharkey 10 wrote: »

Its almost like you cant bring this up with these people , thats why earlier in thread i pointed out duffys hypocrisy by champion connolly and then condeming political violence . This also applies to many polititions.

Exactly, to people of a certain mindset one woman is a disgrace for throwing watered down paint at an incompetent minister as it could have gotten in her eyes while Connolly et al are patriotic heroes for shooting at, and trying to kill, young English lads just doing a job. They really can't see how idiotic their stance is.

twinytwo

Noreen1 wrote: »

I have no double standards.
I applaud those who engage in peaceful protest.

Noreen

peaceful protest wont work in this country , you will just be ignored. Or by the time it works there will be no bringing the country back

ejmaztec

As for those inciting violence, it has been known in other countries for the security services to plant its own people in the marches, with the specific aim of turning opinion away from the peaceful protestors.

Mike 1972

I wouldnt really buy into such conspiracy theories here if only because in order to organise a conspiracy takes a certain amount of brains

Terry

Dudess wrote: »

Yeah, there was a "Shut down Anglo, not St Mary's Orthopaedic Hospital" march in Cork a few weeks ago, and members of the Ireland Palestine Solidarity Campaign, Sinn Féin and the Socialist Workers Party were marching alongside them. To me anyway, it seemed more like what Terry says rather than solidarity - maybe it was a combination of both though.

Still though, there is a contingent that likes to dismiss/attack anything left-wing/anti-establishment whatsoever as "hippy waster bla bla" carry-on rather than actually taking a few moments out to think about what the cause is.

I can see how it would be a form of solidarity. The three groups you mentioned are anti-anything the government does, whether it's good or bad.
However, they just join any protest to further their cause and push their own agendas.

As for the hippies, they only tend to show up whenever anything is being built or for anti-capitalism rallies.
Here's where I further my own agenda while ignoring the fact that I'm being hypocritical of the SWP et al.

In the first pic you will see the view from 6 houses down the road from me.
A local builder wanted to build some apartments at a lower elevation with an underground car park for the tenants. He would also have created extra parking spaces in the existing car park. These people would have see the top of the back of the complex, so they objected to it being built because it would have spoiled their view, even though the tree line would have remained intact, thus blocking the apartment complex from sight.

Second pic is a closer view from the end of the road. Please note that the house at the bottom right is facing at a 90 degree angle from where the view would have supposedly been spoiled.

Pic 3 shows the view from the front of my house. It's a similar scenario to the one above. 6 houses with a nice view. There's a small valley at the end of the road, and the people who own the land want to build a few apartments there. To the best of my knowledge, there have been no objections and he is proceeding with his plans.

Pic 4 shows a closer view from the end of the road. Once again, the front of the house at the end is at a 90 degree angle to mine.

I saw the planning application a few months ago. At first I was against it, but two minutes later I changed my mind and thought fair play to him.
Mind you, he'll have to do something about the flooding that happens down there every spring, but that's his problem.

The sad part about this is that the first scenario would have had some benefit to the town. The second one only benefits one family.
From upstairs in the scenario one houses, all you can see are the tops of buildings in the village and the water reprocessing plant.
From upstairs in my house, it's all fields.

Nothing pisses me off more than people hindering progress. Which brings me to another point.
Over the last few days we've had threads about develpoments in sligo and one of the midlands counties whose name I can't remember. Tipperary I think.

Both were shot down by the same crowd who constantly whine about the country being at a standstill. About how the government are dicks (fair enough there, I suppose). About the public sector jobs stealing their taxes, yet these two developments are private sector and would creat thousands of jobs between them.

It just boggles the mind. The only conclusion I can come to is that these people have an extremely narrow view of the world, and only seem to focus on their own insignificant lives.

cedissapointed wrote: »

Rant about FÁS
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/pages/End-the-FAS-work-place-programme-WWP1-WWP2/109792949040367

I had to laugh at calling people on FÁS courses 'slaves' in the facebook group.
I really think you the person behind that group needs to check out the definition of 'slave'.

ejmaztec

Mike 1972 wrote: »

I wouldnt really buy into such conspiracy theories here if only because in order to organise a conspiracy takes a certain amount of brains

They'd probably forget to take their uniforms off.:o

cedissapointed

Laugh all you like but people who work in fas for FREE are slaves..

I cannot understand why anybody would find this funny,unless they werent in the dilemmas the poor humble souls of ireland face.

When you graduate from your snotty course i hope these ''jobs'' are all your faced with

A slave is one who works for peanuts.

lmaopml

Sharkey 10 wrote: »

Ive noticed over the last year but particularly with two recent events that irish people seem to like to see strong protest or something meaningful when its abroad.
The two instances that come to mind are the paint pouring on harney and the driving of the truck up to the gates of the dail.

Most people complain that we are too passive when it comes to taking cut backs but when someone goes a little bit further to highlight their anger then many of the same people will condemn those actions .
Most Irish people applauded the French over the last two weeks for their actions over the last few weeks but if the same happened here people would be up in arms .
Does this irk anyone else? I think these people should decide what they would like to see .

Edit : how could i forget about the student protests , their was minimal violence here but by some of the reporting you would think ww3 had kicked off. Btw im not sure how many students were there with an intent of protesting my sister said they were drinking on the bus up and when the got back to the college there were free drinks for everyone

The only hypocrisy I see are people applauding the likes of paint throwers etc. and think it's brilliant to do that kind of thing, but never got up off their collective backsides when we actually had the money to make a difference to the health service.

All those who marched pre boom or highlighted the monumentous money eating pit that was the HSE, I applaud, the likes of paint throwing and Government building storming is just a pile of ask me arse when the horse has bolted.

The students who marched peacefully were quite right to seperate themselves from such twats...

Flygimp

Sharkey 10 wrote: »

I dont want to start anew thread but would like to get peoples opinions on what is the threshold for people violently protesting or rioting?
Rioting is almost always condemned in Ireland but surely there are times when it is acceptable and more over warranted.

Remember the Love Ulster Parade in 2006 brought out some of the most upstanding members of society and your average punter down south almost p8ssed themselves in fright in the face of such upheaval... see that **** up North most years in July without blinking an eye lid.

Einhard

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

Don't forget those people who have the luxury of being able to condemn any form of violent or non-peaceful protests yet never seem to have the balls to carry this on to condemning the 1916 rebels who realised that only violent action could lead to the eventual founding of an independent state (and no, Ghandi doesn't count as proof they were wrong as he had about 800 million pissed off countrymen behind him in a country half way around the world from Britain, if Ghandi was Irish we'd still be sending MPs to Westminster today).

And you forget that we live in a parliamentary democracy where we elect our own leaders, and thus have no justification for violent insurrection of any kind.

Flygimp

Einhard wrote: »

And you forget that we live in a parliamentary democracy where we elect our own leaders, and thus have no justification for violent insurrection of any kind.

Did you say you live in a democracy? As in a country where transparency and accountability of government is at the fore. Where public servants (within government and credible opposition parties) have real policies on domestic and international fronts... f*ck me over please, go back to daycare!

Terry

cedissapointed wrote: »

Laugh all you like but people who work in fas for FREE are slaves..

I cannot understand why anybody would find this funny,unless they werent in the dilemmas the poor humble souls of ireland face.

When you graduate from your snotty course i hope these ''jobs'' are all your faced with

I'm not on a snotty course. I've been self employed for a few years now. As things stand, I'm quite poor. Well, poor from an Irish standpoint. I'm not going hungry and I own my house, so life isn't that much of a struggle.

I've been considering a FÁS course for quite a while now. I'm not averse to working for €200 a week. I spent a few years working for less at the height of the boom.

If I have to spend a few months on work placement, then so be it. At least I'll have the experience to put on my cv.

A slave is one who works for peanuts.

No, a slave is not someone who works for peanuts. Honestly.

Let me give you a short explanation of slavery.

Slaves do not get paid. They are owned by other people, and are usually beaten to within an inch of their lives if they do not work hard enough.

Slavery has all but been done away with today, but that Eastern European hooker that your friend rode last week is beaten on a regular basis and has to hand over about 95% of the money she earns. She's a slave.

Somebody working in a low paid job is a person working in a low paid job. They can walk away at any time. Your friend's latest conquest cannot.