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Common Folk

Common as...

Ok I gotta few questions for you's. So first of I better say that im a catholic (on paper anyways). Why? Because like most young people in this country i never really cared or took the whole thing seriously.So i guess there's the first question.

1. Would you agree that when it comes to religion most of the young Irish (under 40

) are chatholic but cos they got bigger fish to fry; shopping, sport, women, men, T.V. drinking and so on, they ain't bothered about the whole thing and just kinda go with the flow when it comes to religion?

I've got friends male/female from all walks of life some are very well educated and have very good jobs/career etc while others have trouble with the law and i've worked in several differant type jobs.
So not very often but maybe at or around the time of a funeral a conversation about what you believe comes up. Now i'll generalize here but in a group of about 6 or 7 there's always 1 or 2 who confess to being atheist and demand evidence in order to believe in something.
But from my experience anyways when someone says they are atheist to a group that is kinda vague about what they believe in ( most young people) it never really changes the views of those who are non-atheist about them, in fact its such a non-issue it might even be forgotten. A debate may spark up but it wouldn't get that serious, of course if you add drink into the mix it might get a little heated but dosen't every arguement.

2. So do Irish atheist here have a "Im the only gay in the village" mentality and if so how did that come about?

Now if im pushed as to what I really believe I would say, I believe in a Being, Thing, God, Higher power call it what you like; that is uncomprehensible to myself and all other humans. As for the bible and religions well I would need some really strong evidence in order to believe any of that. I don't go to mass, but why do I go along with all the stuff like weddings funerals prayers christenings etc. Why do I do this? I gotta pretty solid answer to that, I don't wanna dissappoint my parents.

I also would think that this view is quiet common amoung young people in this country anyways. Now it may not seem like that here on a religious forum but my experience from living here, is that this is very much the case.
3. So considering I was raised catholic; parents,schools, teachers etc and my views above are common. Do you think when it comes to organized religion here its pretty much a case of, game over, ball burst!?

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ShooterSF

Most of my friends fall into the same category as yourself and I think most just don't think about their religion as theyre comfortable with it.

As for question number 2, Would your group be accepting if someone said they were gay? It's not the (stereotypical al a carte catholic) young Irish that give an atheist heartache over what they believe (or don't (before "THAT" starts)).

Common as...

ShooterSF wrote: »

Most of my friends fall into the same category as yourself and I think most just don't think about their religion as theyre comfortable with it.

As for question number 2, Would your group be accepting if someone said they were gay? It's not the (stereotypical al a carte catholic) young Irish that give an atheist heartache over what they believe (or don't (before "THAT" starts)).

Well if say a good friend said all of a sudden that he/she was gay, I know id be very accepting and i would try anyways at being supportive but at the same time it would be a big deal, im sure id be shocked, and im sure them being gay would define them for the next while until people got used to the idea. As for say a group of friends Id like to think they would be accepting but can't say for sure.
But if a good freind said all of a sudden they were atheist, it wouldn't be such a big deal or even close.

strobe

1. No. I wouldn't think they were Catholic unless they were actually living by the Catholic doctrine and believed in it. It's my opinion a large proportion of the people you are talking about may say "catholic" when asked what their religion is out of habit more than anything else. |I would not consider them Catholic and most genuine Catholics that I know would not consider them Catholic either.

2. No. Whenever the topic of religious belief comes up, which is usually when people are drunk and someone has recently died, I have never been the only person to say I was agnostic/atheist. Nowadays I would be pretty surprised to find myself in that situation, certainly amongst people of my generation. So no I've never felt like I'm the "only atheist in the village". So no, I don't think that mentality exists.

3 .No. I don;t think it's game over in terms of organised religion. Have a look at the power and influence organised religion has had in Ireland or the western world in general. 500 years ago. Then 100 years ago. Then 30 years ago. Then today. It seems to me it is a pretty clear downward trend in terms of organised religions 'success' for want of a better word. I believe that the causality of this is tied directly to education and the freedom and availability of information. I think organised religion will never go away completely but it will continue to have less and less influence and adherents as time goes on. I'd predict that people self identifying as belonging to a particular organised religion will be a small minority within two generations in the developed world.

Zillah

Common as... wrote: »

1. Would you agree that when it comes to religion most of the young Irish are chatholic but cos they got bigger fish to fry; shopping, sport, women, men, T.V. drinking and so on, they ain't bothered about the whole thing and just kinda go with the flow when it comes to religion?

I would consider it accurate to say that most young Irish people would label themselves Catholic because they don't really give a shit. They're still not Catholic though. The vast majority don't even understand the details of Catholicism, let alone believe in them.

2. So do Irish atheist here have a "Im the only gay in the village" mentality and if so how did that come about?

I'm not sure what this means. I think its a little britain reference but I've never watched that show.

3. So considering I was raised catholic; parents,schools, teachers etc and my views above are common. Do you think when it comes to organized religion here its pretty much a case of, game over, ball burst!?

Organised religion is screwed in Europe. The newest generation are generally deists or non-specific theists, which means they have no where near the conviction required to instill the religion in the next generation. Japan, Australia and New Zealand seem to be heading the same direction, but the Americas, Africa, Middle East and Asia have a long way to go. China and Korea are pretty big exceptions though. China confuses me. Religious adherence is really low, but general wishy washy spirituality and superstition are very common, so it'll be interesting to see what happens there over the next century.

Here's a question for you; why would you consider yourself a Catholic when you think almost everything the Catholic Church teaches is nonsense?

Bearing in mind of course that there is a huge difference between pretending to be a Catholic for your parents' sake and actually considering yourself one.

Daftendirekt

Common as... wrote: »

Ok I gotta few questions for you's. So first of I better say that im a catholic (on paper anyways) <snip>

It's interesting that you call yourself a Catholic, but go on to say the following:

Now if im pushed as to what I really believe I would say, I believe in a Being, Thing, God, Higher power call it what you like; that is uncomprehensible to myself and all other humans. As for the bible and religions well I would need some really strong evidence in order to believe any of that. I don't go to mass, but why do I go along with all the stuff like weddings funerals prayers christenings etc. Why do I do this? I gotta pretty solid answer to that, I don't wanna dissappoint my parents.

I'm pretty sure believing in the Abrahamic god, going to mass and accepting the Bible as truth are pretty fundamental prerequisites to being a Catholic.

That bit of pedantry aside, I do agree with your general point though. Lots of people call themselves Catholic simply because they've always been told that that's what they are. The word "deist" needs a lot more exposure, methinks.

Goduznt Xzst

Common as... wrote: »

I better say that im a catholic

As for the bible and religions well I would need some really strong evidence in order to believe any of that. I don't go to mass...

What you have said basically amounts to something like:

"First off I better say that i'm an Olympic Sprinter. But I don't compete, have never really ran, have never been in the Olympics, but I've watched Olympic Sprinters on TV. I feel this alone is a valid enough reason to claim that I am also an Olympic Sprinter"

Dades

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

What you have said basically amounts to something like:

"First off I better say that i'm an Olympic Sprinter. But I don't compete, have never really ran, have never been in the Olympics, but I've watched Olympic Sprinters on TV. I feel this alone is a valid enough reason to claim that I am also an Olympic Sprinter"

More realistically... "Both my parents were Olympic sprinters, and always assumed I'd be one too. So I tell them I am, just so as I don't disappoint them".

Des Carter

A non-practicing Catholic is still a Catholic!

I dont get this whole "if you dont believe everything in the Christian faith then your not a Christian/Catholic" argument. It makes no sense most people call themselvs Catolic because its the closest religion to their beliefs.

seamus

Des Carter wrote: »

A non-practicing Catholic is still a Catholic!

I dont get this whole "if you dont believe everything in the Christian faith then your not a Christian/Catholic" argument. It makes no sense most people call themselvs Catolic because its the closest religion to their beliefs.

I don't get this whole, "You can pick and choose all you like and call yourself a Catholic, no biggie".

Catholicism is defined by the set of rules and beliefs to which it adheres. You either abide by them, or you're not Catholic. Simple as. Exactly the same as calling yourself a vegetarian, but deciding that it's OK to eat pork one day a week and maybe have a bit of steak if it's a special occasion.

If you don't agree with Rome on any issue, then you're not catholic. There is no scope for disagreement. You either follow it all, or you're not catholic.

"Christian" is an entirely different thing altogether and gives one the right to make up most of your own rules provided that you're happy that the son of God came down, died and was resurrected for your sins.

The problem here is that we've turned religion into an ethnicity. Just look at Northern Ireland. There are official government forms in NI where you have to explicitly state whether you're a Catholic or a Protestant, if you're an NI-born person. It doesn't matter that you're atheist, according to these forms, being catholic or protestant is nothing to do with religion.

Of course, this is nonsense. There is no ethnic link between all catholics or protestants or muslims. The Jews have done their best to pretend that they have some form of ethnic heritage or racial definition but likewise anyone can call themselves a Jew, so it cannot be an ethnicity or a race.

magicbastarder

Common as... wrote: »

Now if im pushed as to what I really believe I would say, I believe in a Being, Thing, God, Higher power call it what you like; that is uncomprehensible to myself and all other humans.

so you're a believer, but you don't seem to have any concept of what you believe in?

Galvasean

Des Carter wrote: »

A non-practicing Catholic is still a Catholic!

Not according to actual Catholic dogma.

Des Carter wrote:

most people call themselvs Catolic because its the closest religion to their beliefs.

Actually, most people who claim to be non-practicing Catholics have beliefs which are much closer to Protestantism. They just don't realise it.

For a better/more in depth answer see seamus' post.

Common as...

FXXK i just wrote a long post and i lost it. Took me ages!

im outta time now.
I should have a thanks Icon where is it?

OK quickly, Yes it is a little Britian reference not sure what i was on about i shoulda left it out

So then it turns out im not a catholic if you wanna take the label of me thats fine its not big deal to me.
I've one main question, if I was to give myself a label would it be a "deist"?

I forgot to mention funerals before, I wouldn't defect from the church because Id prefer to leave it up to the priests if i suddenly died. This has nothing to do with my parents.
In short; I was saying my girlfriend isin't irish and here parents aren't religious but she likes the idea of a wedding, as for christianings its no real skin of my back but not doing these things could be a lotta hassel for me.

I feel a little guilty cos im using the church when it suits me, but Its the situation I find myself in.
Now me thinks i gotta alot more Q's for the christian forum than the atheist!! Like why do they persist when Im sure they know the situation

axer

Common as... wrote: »

In short; I was saying my girlfriend isin't irish and here parents aren't religious but she likes the idea of a wedding, as for christianings its no real skin of my back but not doing these things could be a lotta hassel for me.

Non-religious folk get married too!

Zombrex

Des Carter wrote: »

A non-practicing Catholic is still a Catholic!

By whose standard?

Dades

Common as... wrote: »

I've one main question, if I was to give myself a label would it be a "deist"?

I thought originally that you sounded like some form of Deist.

Don't feel too guilty. I was married in a church and had a youngling begrudgingly baptised. (The missis is 'catholic').

robindch

Common as... wrote: »

I feel a little guilty cos im using the church when it suits me, but Its the situation I find myself in.

Wouldn't worry too much -- everybody else is using the church for when it suits them too.

The number of people who do exactly what the Vatican requires is probably zero.

Mark Hamill

Des Carter wrote: »

A non-practicing Catholic is still a Catholic

Are non-practising vegetarians still vegetarian?

Truley

Des Carter wrote: »

A non-practicing Catholic is still a Catholic!

Yeah, but only because they wont let us leave now! :mad:

Zillah

Common as... wrote: »

I should have a thanks Icon where is it?

A little off topic, but I noticed that your smileys are direct links with [.img] tags rather than bb-code, which would imply your browser isn't showing you the smiley buttons, which implies it is blocking some images. I'd say that's why you have no thanks button. My best guess would be overly aggressive ad-blocker.

So then it turns out im not a catholic if you wanna take the label of me thats fine its not big deal to me.
I've one main question, if I was to give myself a label would it be a "deist"?

It's not about us "taking" anything from you, it's about what term best describes your beliefs. It is a bit silly to call you a Catholic if you don't agree with Catholic beliefs.

A deist is someone who believes in a God (or God-like thing - some people like to be vague about it) that created the universe but now sits back and does not get involved. It means no miracles, visions, interventions etc. It also certainly means no Jesus.

I forgot to mention funerals before, I wouldn't defect from the church because Id prefer to leave it up to the priests if i suddenly died. This has nothing to do with my parents.
In short; I was saying my girlfriend isin't irish and here parents aren't religious but she likes the idea of a wedding, as for christianings its no real skin of my back but not doing these things could be a lotta hassel for me.

I feel a little guilty cos im using the church when it suits me, but Its the situation I find myself in.

I don't think you need to feel guilty about it at all. Everything the Church has was gotten from a mix of dodery auld ones bequething their stuff in their wills, donations extorted from the average person and land siezed from victims of the inquisition. I think telling a lie to get a Church wedding is pretty tame...and probably a hell of a lot more common than the bishop would like to imagine

Now me thinks i gotta alot more Q's for the christian forum than the atheist!!

Honestly, you're probably better off asking your questions here.

Beruthiel

Common as... wrote: »

In short; I was saying my girlfriend isin't irish and here parents aren't religious but she likes the idea of a wedding

I recently got married. We had an old fashioned hand fasting ceremony with a registered Solemniser. No gods were mentioned in the proceedings.

I gotta pretty solid answer to that, I don't wanna dissappoint my

My parents are in their early 70's and are very religious. Not a word was said about the ceremony and they enjoyed the day.

Keeping your parents happy is not an excuse to carry on in a particular way if you no long believe in it.
Be true to yourself.

farna_boy

seamus wrote: »

I don't get this whole, "You can pick and choose all you like and call yourself a Catholic, no biggie".

Catholicism is defined by the set of rules and beliefs to which it adheres. You either abide by them, or you're not Catholic. Simple as. Exactly the same as calling yourself a vegetarian, but deciding that it's OK to eat pork one day a week and maybe have a bit of steak if it's a special occasion.

If you don't agree with Rome on any issue, then you're not catholic. There is no scope for disagreement. You either follow it all, or you're not catholic.

"Christian" is an entirely different thing altogether and gives one the right to make up most of your own rules provided that you're happy that the son of God came down, died and was resurrected for your sins.

The problem here is that we've turned religion into an ethnicity. Just look at Northern Ireland. There are official government forms in NI where you have to explicitly state whether you're a Catholic or a Protestant, if you're an NI-born person. It doesn't matter that you're atheist, according to these forms, being catholic or protestant is nothing to do with religion.

Of course, this is nonsense. There is no ethnic link between all catholics or protestants or muslims. The Jews have done their best to pretend that they have some form of ethnic heritage or racial definition but likewise anyone can call themselves a Jew, so it cannot be an ethnicity or a race.

Galvasean wrote: »

Not according to actual Catholic dogma.

Actually, most people who claim to be non-practicing Catholics have beliefs which are much closer to Protestantism. They just don't realise it.

For a better/more in depth answer see seamus' post.

Just an FYI.

What you are talking about here is Roman Catholics. The term "Catholic" also applies to the Eastern Orthodox churches, Anglicans and some Lutherans as far as I can tell.

The "catholic church" only refers to the RCC though (I don't know why).

ColmDawson

Zillah wrote: »

A little off topic, but I noticed that your smileys are direct links with [.img] tags rather than bb-code, which would imply your browser isn't showing you the smiley buttons, which implies it is blocking some images. I'd say that's why you have no thanks button. My best guess would be overly aggressive ad-blocker.

His post count is six; he won't get a thanks button until it's at ten, I think.

Common as...

Beruthiel wrote: »

Keeping your parents happy is not an excuse to carry on in a particular way if you no long believe in it.
Be true to yourself.

Well, maybe your right, I guess I can't claim to be that easy going about it if im on here posting

Common as...

ColmDawson wrote: »

His post count is six; he won't get a thanks button until it's at ten, I think.

maybe

Common as...

ColmDawson wrote: »

His post count is six; he won't get a thanks button until it's at ten, I think.

your

Common as...

ColmDawson wrote: »

His post count is six; he won't get a thanks button until it's at ten, I think.

right too

Common as...

ya got it now!:D

ColmDawson

Cheeky fecker, you had to earn a thanks button in my day!

Common as...

:pac::pac: well thats us vague wishy washy deist folk for u

Bduffman

Zillah wrote: »

I would consider it accurate to say that most young Irish people would label themselves Catholic because they don't really give a shit. They're still not Catholic though. The vast majority don't even understand the details of Catholicism, let alone believe in them.

This is soooo true. In the last 6 months alone I have had to explain transubstantiation to two 'catholics'. When they realised what they were supposed to believe in they were visibly shocked. And stated that they don't believe in it (that to them its only symbolic).
And guess what? They still call themselves catholic!! One of them still goes to mass (yes the other one hasn't gone to mass for years :rolleyes:)