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Child Item

Schoolgirl gets €5,000 for slander and assault on Luas

Mr. Loverman

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1027/1224282072322.html

In summary:

A 15 year old girl from council flats in Dublin tries to get on a Luas tram but is blocked by Luas security as they do not believe she has a ticket.

The girl says this caused her distress for some amount of time after the incident.

The girl was unable to provide any evidence (apart from her word) that she had a ticket in court.

She gets paid €5,000.

EH WTF?!

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PCPhoto

seamus wrote: »

Balance of probabilities most likely. Veolia probably couldn't prove that she didn't have a ticket, so we must err on the most likely scenario that she did indeed have a ticket and was incorrectly stopped.

It's worth noting that Veolia made an offer of €5,000, the court didn't award this amount.

The fact that the girl came from council flats is irrelevant. Does that mean that she probably didn't pay?

She most likely threw the ticket in the bin, but when she got home her parents decided to make a few bob out of it rather than just forget about it.

the court awarded her that amount - the judge approved the settlement offer of €5,000

Yakult

MrStuffins wrote: »

But it is not their job to push about people who are NOT getting free rides.... like this girl.

Hence the settlement!

How do we know she didnt warrent it? We dont, but I dont think someone working on a busy Luas would push a young girl for not having a valid ticket..

Snakeblood

R_H_C_P wrote: »

She had a ticket, but it wasnt VALID*. So thats pretty much like having no ticket. He was restraining her, which imo is what Id do and any other business would do in similar situation.

Christ how many times have I been refused entry with a valid ticket and man handled. Dont go crying to the courts for money. People will at any cost try to suck every penny they can.

*According to article.

Ms Pekaar told Circuit Court president Mr Justice Matthew Deery that Shauna, who is now 17, had felt embarrassment and distress for some time after the incident at what had happened.

She said Shauna had a valid ticket and it had been her intention to continue into town with her friend. She had stepped off the tram at the Museum to meet her friend but had been prevented from boarding again.

Gyalist

PCPhoto wrote: »

trial ???

it was a hearing in the Civil Court - her barrister, solicitor ...the judge, her dad and her ..... the reporter, me, another photographer ....can't remember if there was a barrister for the luas people or not - I don't think so.

Maybe Veolia (or more likely, their insurers) reckoned that the cost of defending the case was not worth it and just preferred to settle.

MrStuffins

R_H_C_P wrote: »

How do we know she didnt warrent it? We dont, but I dont think someone working on a busy Luas would push a young girl for not having a valid ticket..

Well Veolia do, and they paid her €5000 for the inconvenience.

mikemac

Gyalist wrote: »

Maybe Veolia reckoned that the cost of defending the case was not worth it and just preferred to settle.

Probably.
But long term it might have been in their interest to fight it to the end

Will we see an explosion of similar cases against Veolia now? They don't want to become an easy target

Mr. Loverman

Snakeblood wrote: »

Ms Pekaar told Circuit Court president Mr Justice Matthew Deery that Shauna, who is now 17, had felt embarrassment and distress for some time after the incident at what had happened.

She said Shauna had a valid ticket and it had been her intention to continue into town with her friend. She had stepped off the tram at the Museum to meet her friend but had been prevented from boarding again.

Do you understand though that she had no proof she had a ticket?

Anyone can say anything about anything, e.g. "I had a million euros but I lost it." Does that mean I really had a million euros?

Mr. Loverman

feelingstressed wrote: »

Probably.
But long term it might have been in their interest to fight it to the end

Will we see an explosion of similar cases against Veolia now? They don't want to become an easy target

If I "can't find" my ticket and they accuse me of not having a ticket (i.e. breaking the law) can I sue them for slander?

Snakeblood

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Do you understand though that she had no proof she had a ticket?

Anyone can say anything about anything, e.g. "I had a million euros but I lost it." Does that mean I really had a million euros?

Yeah, I'm not going to call you a liar over a ticket. Veolia weren't willing to call her a liar either.

seamus

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Do you understand though that she had no proof she had a ticket?

Anyone can say anything about anything, e.g. "I had a million euros but I lost it." Does that mean I really had a million euros?

Balance of probabilities. She was riding on the Luas, therefore the most probable assertion is that she had a ticket.

You're not a millionaire, therefore the most probable assertion is that you didn't lose one million euro. However, if you said, "I had a tenner, but I lost it", then it's very likely that you did indeed have a tenner. See the difference?

If I "can't find" my ticket and they accuse me of not having a ticket (i.e. breaking the law) can I sue them for slander?

Only if you're on the Luas at the time - because they are correct, you don't have a ticket. However if they approach you after the fact and claim that you didn't have a ticket, but can't prove that you didn't, that's a whole other kettle of fish.

There's nothing in the article to suggest that she didn't have a ticket on her when she was stopped from boarding the tram.

Snakeblood

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Maybe I'm old (32) but when I was 15 that kind of thing wouldn't have bothered me and certainly the thought of contacting a solicitor wouldn't have crossed my mind...!

I'm 36 and if I was 15 and someone had pushed me off a Luas I was entitled to be on you can ****ing bet I'd be onto someone about it.

Snakeblood

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

If I "can't find" my ticket and they accuse me of not having a ticket (i.e. breaking the law) can I sue them for slander?

If you can't find your ticket, you pay the fine. The girl wasn't apparently asked to produce her ticket, as it didn't mention it. She just was pushed out and not allowed on.

Mr. Loverman

seamus wrote: »

Balance of probabilities. She was riding on the Luas, therefore the most probable assertion is that she had a ticket.

You're not a millionaire, therefore the most probable assertion is that you didn't lose one million euro. However, if you said, "I had a tenner, but I lost it", then it's very likely that you did indeed have a tenner. See the difference?

Yep, I know what you mean. Still though... it is easy to say you had a ticket.

Snakeblood wrote: »

I'm 36 and if I was 15 and someone had pushed me off a Luas I was entitled to be on you can ****ing bet I'd be onto someone about it.

Suing the Luas would cross your mind? We're very different people so.

PS She was NOT entitled to be on the Luas. Her ticket was for her previous journey!

Gyalist

feelingstressed wrote: »

Probably.
But long term it might have been in their interest to fight it to the end

Will we see an explosion of similar cases against Veolia now? They don't want to become an easy target

I went through a vaguely similar experience a few years ago. A young lady claimed to have fallen in my store and I received a letter from her solicitors demanding the name of our insurance company. I was prepared to fight it to the end as we had evidence on the CCTV that she did not fall but our insurance company quietly paid up.

PCPhoto

Snakeblood wrote: »

Ms Pekaar told Circuit Court president Mr Justice Matthew Deery that Shauna, who is now 17, had felt embarrassment and distress for some time after the incident at what had happened.

She said Shauna had a valid ticket and it had been her intention to continue into town with her friend. She had stepped off the tram at the Museum to meet her friend but had been prevented from boarding again.

according to the girl (Shauna) she had a valid ticket - but we do not know if this is true - we can only assume she is telling the truth because she did not keep the ticket.

we do not know if the "security" person pushed her or not - because we do not have CCTV of the event...we do not even know if the matter even happened.

she made an accusation that she was not allowed on the luas - luas people accepted her version and offered €5,000 - she accepted and as is the case with ALL cases involving a minor - the offer must be approved by the court.... this happened yesterday - whoop de doo - cases similar to this happen every week.

kids turn up to the Civil Court every week claiming to have fallen and injured themselves which is never their fault.....its not the kids that are to blame - its the parents.

I broke my arm playing football in fields near my home - was tackled and smashed my arm off a fairly big boulder - which the council put into the field to stop "travellers" from parking there .... as far as I was concerned ....it was an accident, as far as my parents are concerned it was my fault....nowadays - the parents look to sue because "its always someone elses fault"

falling down and getting injured as a kid is part of growing up - kids should not be allowed to sue unless the child is severely damaged. (my personal opinion)

Snakeblood

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

Suing the Luas would cross your mind? We're very different people so.

I guess so. Someone pushing me when they had no right to do so, I'd call assault. Seriously, like. Just because someone is a minor doesn't mean adults can give them a cuff on the ear and send them on their way. They have rights.

Mr. Loverman

Snakeblood wrote: »

I guess so. Someone pushing me when they had no right to do so, I'd call assault. Seriously, like. Just because someone is a minor doesn't mean adults can give them a cuff on the ear and send them on their way. They have rights.

They blocked her getting on the train. I wouldn't consider that similar to actually hitting someone.

Did she have to go to hospital with injuries or anything like that?

I know I am wrong though. Any sort of physical contact is assault. The world is mad!

Snakeblood

PCPhoto wrote: »

I broke my arm playing football in fields near my home - was tackled and smashed my arm off a fairly big boulder - which the council put into the field to stop "travellers" from parking there .... as far as I was concerned ....it was an accident, as far as my parents are concerned it was my fault....nowadays - the parents look to sue because "its always someone elses fault"

falling down and getting injured as a kid is part of growing up - kids should not be allowed to sue unless the child is severely damaged. (my personal opinion)

That was your fault though. You ran into a boulder, or fell on one. This girl was pushed out of the Luas by someone.

If an adult shoved you off a bus when you were a kid when you had done absolutely nothing to deserve it, would you have thought 'Well, that was an accident'?

PCPhoto

Gyalist wrote: »

Maybe Veolia (or more likely, their insurers) reckoned that the cost of defending the case was not worth it and just preferred to settle.

well her legal fee's were €4,500 - so in total they would be paying

€5,000 + costs(€4,500) and their own legal fee's (so it was a fairly expensive court date for them)

Mr. Loverman

Snakeblood wrote: »

That was your fault though. You ran into a boulder, or fell on one. This girl was pushed out of the Luas by someone.

If an adult shoved you off a bus when you were a kid when you had done absolutely nothing to deserve it, would you have thought 'Well, that was an accident'?

But would you sue them?!

Seriously like.

Hannibal Smith

I don't understand what the issue is. The girl bought a ticket to go into the city centre, got off mid way to meet a friend, got back on. The security guards said the ticket wasn't valid because she didn't buy it at the same stop she was boarding. This is incorrect. Your ticket is valid for the journey you pay for, for a certain period after you purchase the ticket, regardless of how many times you get on or off in between. Hence the defendants were in the wrong and compensation was paid. How is that ridiculous?

Also, a settlement had been reached between the two parties, the judge just had to rubber stamp it, which has to be done in cases involving minors.

amacachi

seamus wrote: »

Balance of probabilities. She was riding on the Luas, therefore the most probable assertion is that she had a ticket.

Have you ever been on the Luas? :pac:

Snakeblood

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

But would you sue them?!

Seriously like.

I don't know. It'd depend on whether I got a full apology or not. Considering the general c.untishness of companies, I might.

prinz

Snakeblood wrote: »

If an adult shoved you off a bus when you were a kid when you had done absolutely nothing to deserve it, would you have thought 'Well, that was an accident'?

I would have called her/him a tosser and gotten the next bus. All over in a couple of minutes. Forgotten about in hours.

By the by have often been refused entry to a bus, as a kid and as an adult with a valid ticket and all. Full up boss, they say, and close the doors on your face.

prinz

Hannibal Smith wrote: »

The security guards said the ticket wasn't valid because she didn't buy it at the same stop she was boarding..

We don't know if that's what was said at all. Or if that was even a reason.

Snakeblood

prinz wrote: »

I would have called her/him a tosser and gotten the next bus. All over in a couple of minutes. Forgotten about in hours.

By the by have often been refused entry to a bus, as a kid and as an adult with a valid ticket and all. Full up boss, they say, and close the doors on your face.

I don't think kids should just take stuff like that, and I don't think staff should think that that's a valid way to treat people.

A full bus is different. They can't allow more people on, so they're not unjustly singling people out. Everyone who won't fit on doesn't get on, they don't pick you out of the line up and go, 'Not you, Prinz'. That's an amusing story about how full buses can be.

jackiebaron

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

why does the article say she had a ticket and then later say she didn't. A bit contradictory, no.

She clearly did not have a ticket on her and regardless of whether she bought one or not you have to keep it on you until you complete your journey. She should be fined for no ticket and wasting the courts time also

I get the impression that she didn't have the ticket with her IN COURT. She claims to have had a valid ticket when getting on the Luas. As for travelling a portion of your journey, getting off and then getting back on...I don't think you're correct in your assumption that once you get off, your ticket is invalid. If what you say is true (which I doubt) then it ought to be changed. If I am on the DART or the Luas with a valid ticket and I'm travelling from, say, Pearse St. to Howth, I should be allowed to get off and get back on using the same ticket. If I need to take a piss I shouldn't have to buy an extra ticket just because Dublin Bus or whoever runs these services don't provide toilets. I should also be allowed to get off if I'm not feeling well and get some fresh air.

Anyway, you're very quick to side with authority and condemn the schoolgirl even though the operators OFFERED to pay 5000k compensation. They didn't fight the case, did they? They just ponied up because it seems they knew they had made a serious mistake.

But of course all that is immaterial to you, right? Here's just a little skanger from Fatima Mansions looking to screw the system and sponge off good taxpayers such as yourself.

senordingdong

The system works!

Hannibal Smith

prinz wrote: »

I would have called her/him a tosser and gotten the next bus. All over in a couple of minutes. Forgotten about in hours.

By the by have often been refused entry to a bus, as a kid and as an adult with a valid ticket and all. Full up boss, they say, and close the doors on your face.

If the person pushed you off the luas, even though you'd paid the correct fare? No way would i let them away with that if it was me.

Refusing entry on a bus when it's full is totally different. Firstly it's a safety issue and secondly you haven't paid yet.

Paparazzo

well, that's €5k smirnoff ice will be getting next year