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You are not a fcking DJ. You’re an overpaid, untalented, cake-throwing cnt.

Zascar

So the "Off Topic Thread" did not really go anywhere, pity cause I think we have some good banter going in a lot of the existing threads which is good craic. I was thinking maybe we can have a place for random sh1t in one thread and see where it goes. Does not have to be off topic at all it can totally be music realted. It might be an idea to 'copy' certain topics that sprout in other threads over here and just get a bit of banter going and see what happens.

I'll start off with this:

I saw a bit of Richie Hawtin's new Marking Kontakt DVD the other day, really need to see more of it but it seemed interesting, a little wanky though...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDY3GOGHCbU

Also this is another video Hawtin linkde to on his twitter that got ripped apart on emi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2S10wAPhY4

Ok lads your turn, post something random/interesting and get involved, could be good!

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jonnny68

ianuss wrote: »

The amount of Irish people doing great things at the moment is actually incredible.

maybe in dance music but the Government should be burned at the stake for the mess they have got the country into,the worst in the history of Ireland (off topic but has to be said):eek:

jtsuited

jonnny68 wrote: »

maybe in dance music but the Government should be burned at the stake for the mess they have got the country into,the worst in the history of Ireland (off topic but has to be said):eek:

to be fair, we're one of the youngest countries in the world (we're not even a century old), so it's pretty easy to look at a post-megabubble megabust as a giant mess of historical proportion. Believe me, we'll fcuk up far worse than this in our lifetimes.

While the government are a bunch of incompetent tossers, I blame idiots who borrowed far beyond their means because of an obsession with land ownership far more. Them and the people who still vote based on civil war allegiances (which is what most of the electorate still seem to vote based on).

We mightn't like to admit it, but we're just a mild version (comparatively speaking) of any former British Empire colony. Still coming to terms with self governance and struggling to define ourselves. I know a lot of Irish comedians have said it, but the only way of describing ourselves is as British but not-British.

Our government still sits in the former palace of the Duke of Leinster ffs. If you look at the history of a lot of the former colonies in Africa you'll see many similarities in our history.

joker77

About to find out what Chemical records Customer Service / Returns are like. Unpacked the records last night to discover 2 very thin cuts through the front of one of them. It wasn't at the top or bottom of the box, and the box is intact, so it was done I'd say when they unpacked in their place - looks to have been caused by a Stanley knife. Penetrates the 2 outer covers to the vinyl. Have sent them photos so awaiting response.

BaZmO*

I'll bought loads of stuff from them before with no problems, never had to return anything though, so I'd be interested to see how ya get one. I've bought loads of stuff online down through the years and never had any problems with sellers....until recently. Bought a camera bag from a company called Fotosense......absolute TWATS!!!

jtsuited

joker77 wrote: »

About to find out what Chemical records Customer Service / Returns are like. Unpacked the records last night to discover 2 very thin cuts through the front of one of them. It wasn't at the top or bottom of the box, and the box is intact, so it was done I'd say when they unpacked in their place - looks to have been caused by a Stanley knife. Penetrates the 2 outer covers to the vinyl. Have sent them photos so awaiting response.

so is the actual vinyl ok?

joker77

jtsuited wrote: »

so is the actual vinyl ok?

Nah, as I said - it penetrates all the way through to the vinyl, the last 30 seconds or so are affected

jtsuited

joker77 wrote: »

Nah, as I said - it penetrates all the way through to the vinyl, the last 30 seconds or so are affected

oh ok. i'm sure they'll be no problem to get to send you replacement records.

Android 666

jtsuited wrote: »

While the government are a bunch of incompetent tossers, I blame idiots who borrowed far beyond their means because of an obsession with land ownership far more.

To be fair, the reason people were able to borrow far beyond their means was because of lax regulation of the banks by the government. If people's application were properly stress tested I'd say only a third of mortgages would have actually been approved. But everybody wanted prices to rise so they were happy not to interfere. Also, people were being put under an awful pressure in terms of buying property (if you don't buy now, you'll never be able to afford it…) that was being perpetrated by all the vested interest groups that the rushed out to buy the first thing they could afford in order to get on the ladder. It was naivety more than idiocy in my book and I'd be hard pushed to call around to somebody in massive negative equity and unable to sell a house they can no longer afford and call them an idiot.

Also, how many loans taken over by NAMA are mortgages by home owners and how many are loans to property developers. It's the developers that fooked everything up.

And do you want to know what fuel's our obsession with land ownership. Our colonial past obviously and the fact that no Irish government has ever properly legislated for tenants rights.

jtsuited wrote: »

Them and the people who still vote based on civil war allegiances (which is what most of the electorate still seem to vote based on).

Look at Britain and America, there are always going to be people there who vote historically (my father voted Labour and so will I) just as there will be here. Can't say it's a good thing but it's not exclusive to Ireland

jtsuited wrote: »

We mightn't like to admit it, but we're just a mild version (comparatively speaking) of any former British Empire colony. Still coming to terms with self governance and struggling to define ourselves. I know a lot of Irish comedians have said it, but the only way of describing ourselves is as British but not-British.

Our government still sits in the former palace of the Duke of Leinster ffs. If you look at the history of a lot of the former colonies in Africa you'll see many similarities in our history.

I think the problem in this country is that British Rule engendered us with 'Don't mind the big fella, its us against them' mentality that has permeated every single aspect of Irish culture, even the people running the country! They pass laws and then they flaunt them saying 'Sure if you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours'. What needs to happen is that the government needs to start realising it is actually answerable to the people and that any politician could flouting any laws should be jailed. We really need to get the crap swept out of our Dail and have a fresh start. But I feel this is never going to happen...

BaZmO*

Great post Android.

I think the main issue at the moment is accountability. How many heads will roll when this mess finally comes to an end, and I mean genuinely roll, not told to walk while being handed a huge pension?

It really depresses me when I think who much of a mess we’ve been landed in, and to blame the general public is naïve as it’s those people (us) that will end up paying for it in the end.

jtsuited

Android 666 wrote: »

To be fair, the reason people were able to borrow far beyond their means was because of lax regulation of the banks by the government. If people's application were properly stress tested I'd say only a third of mortgages would have actually been approved. But everybody wanted prices to rise so they were happy not to interfere.

First off my main retort to that point is what I've put in bold.

Secondly, throughout the 90's and 2000's the electorate in this country gave FF and the PD's the go ahead to pursue a neoliberal limited governance/light touch regulated/individualistic agenda. How they did this? They voted them in time and time again.
When I was in my youthful anarchist college years (jaysus), and we screamed and cried bloody murder at the privatisation of public institutions, the pursuit of the above-mentioned agenda, and the heralding of a mega-capitalist state, I failed to realise for a long time why we were wrong. The reason we were wrong is that the vast majority of people wanted a market-capitalist consumer-led system. And it's what has been chosen time and time again by the people of this country, most of whom vote centre to centre-right politicians into power (FF and FG take up the considerable majority of seats in our parliament).

Android 666 wrote: »

Also, people were being put under an awful pressure in terms of buying property (if you don't buy now, you'll never be able to afford it…) that was being perpetrated by all the vested interest groups that the rushed out to buy the first thing they could afford in order to get on the ladder. It was naivety more than idiocy in my book and I'd be hard pushed to call around to somebody in massive negative equity and unable to sell a house they can no longer afford and call them an idiot.

Now if people went out to take massive loans because 'everyone' was telling them the market would be profitable, it doesn't take a genius to work out why that's idiotic - if 'everyone' is buying something or investing in something, it's value will decrease.

It's absolutely the most fundamental principle of economics. It's also pretty much how a bubble is created.
I accept your point that you think it's more naivety than idiocy.

And I'd be inclined to agree, but if I invested the rest of my life (which is what most of my mortgages are and have been for many years) on the premise that I will profit in a bubble market (which even at the time everyone who knew anything knew it was), then I would be much more willing to call myself an idiot than somebody who is naive. When you're investing that amount of money, I really think the scale of the mistake elevates it to idiocy.
Obviously I know a lot of people currently in serious negative equity and you know what?? When they were getting these mortgages I said to them why it was a bad idea. But the cries of 'you can't go wrong with property, sure look at what that house down the road sold for' drowned me out. And I was very much in the distinct minority with my opinion.

Android 666 wrote: »

Also, how many loans taken over by NAMA are mortgages by home owners and how many are loans to property developers. It's the developers that fooked everything up.

Here's the problem. Your average Joe contributes a very small fraction of the money needed for running the state. He gambled (by getting a house), it tanked, he's broke. He either emigrates or rents or whatever.

Developers gambled, it tanked, but because of the size of the investment and the economic impact (jobs lost/tax lost etc.), they're getting bailed out. Unfortunately for the 'man on the street', rich greedy developers and their wealthy friends actually contribute far far far more revenue to the government than your average PAYE worker. And that's why they're getting bailed out. It's fcuked up, but that's the way it is.

Like I said, the people of this country gave a succession of governments the mandate to run this country in favour of big business and light regulation by consistently returning them to their Dáil seats.

It's a bitter pill to swallow, but it's about time people stopped looking at everyone else to blame when we, as a small nation, all were involved in fooking things up to varying degrees.

Android 666 wrote: »

And do you want to know what fuel's our obsession with land ownership. Our colonial past obviously and the fact that no Irish government has ever properly legislated for tenants rights.

Obviously the colonial thing is the reason. That doesn't mean it's not a fcukin stupid obsession though. It's akin to a highly harmful phobia. We know the reason why we're scared but that doesn't mean it excuses it.

The reason we don't have properly legislated tenants rights is because the idea that rent is 'dead money' is still highly prevalent amongst Irish society. We're still hungover from the famine, and as long as we're scared of not owning land, we're not gonna get proper tenants' rights legislated.

Android 666

I don't know how many points this will answer. This is just the way I see it. While you were probably flirting with anarchism in college I was buying my first house. I'm not, nor never was, big on economics although I'm slowly trying to familiarise myself with it as a lot of people are now. Most people were happy with a capitalist system its true and you know what when I probably still probably go with it as a first choice even after all this bullsh1t. True anarchism or communism could never work in reality, ever and I ain't into fascism.

The fact is most people don't have strong political beliefs and when things were going, relatively good for most people they didn't care who was in power as long as they were comfortable. I can see how that annoys the more politically minded (on the left, the right don't seem to mind too much) but I can also see why people act that way. Time can feel very fooking precious in this world sometimes.

There was lots of people trying to make money on property and there were lots of people who believed they could make a fortune 'trading up'. A tiny few did and they were hailed as heroes. There were a lot of people not looking to profit though. The ones that bought their homes at exorbitant prices with the mistaken belief that they would 'grow in to' their mortgages.

I'll admit I use to listen to the rise in prices around our estate and go 'Oh, our house is worth this much now!' Complete bs I know and we were never going to sell the house but it was something that piqued your interest. There was a point at around 2007 when one of the houses went for twice the price we paid for half a decade before when alarm bells really started to ring for me. Working out what that mortgage was going to cost based on what ours was made me realise how insane things had got. Also factor in that they bought a new car at the same time (probably on a 100+% mortgage) that I really wonder what the feck was going on.

At that point I told anyone that was thinking of buying to exercise extreme caution, do some basic maths and then see if they could do it on one wage - I was forecasting mass unemployment at this stage mind, just thought it would be handy for people to work in case, God forbid, one person lost their job or wanted to give up work. Nobody listened much but I don't blame people for that. There was an awful lot on other external forces bending their ear with much more attractive mutterings.

Its true that the government got voted in again and again and allowed to do whatever the fook they wanted but the perception to most people was that everything was rosy in the garden. Tbh the media wasn't telling them much different, journalist didn't scratch beneath the surface at all when Bertie was being questioned about the fact that when he was minister for finance he didn't have a bank account or that they never reported that the NTMA had taken all its money out of Anglo 2007 because it could see then that the bank was doomed (they subsequently had to put a token of money back in - its reckoned that government pressure was put on the NTMA and the chairman Mr. Somers walked away with the biggest golden handshake ever given by the state when he retired in 2009… hmm). People had only very limited knowledge of the corruption, back handed deals, chicanery and ineptitude of the upper echelons of power in government and the banking sector. Its all coming out now of course but 20:20 is hindsight as the say.

What galls me now though is that with all we are finding out and realising, this government are still in power. Once a government was taken down for attempting to tax children's shoes and yet these buffoons are still allowed to run amok. That sh1t really galls me…

Anyways, anyone else get some new albums?

Scubadevils

Much and all as I'd like to think that a Defected mix could have some bearing on the state of our country and contain some deep economic and political insight, I hate to say I doubt it... so I'm going to move this to a happier home over in the random thread. Assuming of course that I can figure out how to move posts :pac:

Woo hoo.. it worked, after a few blips.

jtsuited

Android 666 wrote: »

. People had only very limited knowledge of the corruption, back handed deals, chicanery and ineptitude of the upper echelons of power in government and the banking sector. Its all coming out now of course but 20:20 is hindsight as the say.

I'm sorry but I completely disagree. Everyone and their dog knew how FF ran government.
Great for business by taking brown envelopes so developers could ignore archaic planning laws.
Great for business by privatising and deregulating everything, and great for business by offering massive (and by massive I mean otherworldly massive) corporate tax breaks.

If you look at Reeling in the Years, you can see the same sh1t was going on from the late 60's. We all knew they were crooked but we all thought it in the nation's best interest to let them do whatever they do to get money into this country (we are incapable of supporting ourselves at the end of the day).

I have no idea what world people were living in but growing up, all I ever heard was Ray Burke this, Liam Lawlor that, Ben Dunne and Charlie Haughey did this and that, the arms crisis this, Padraig Flynn selling the m50 to the toll roads that, Ansbacher this, Beef Tribunal that, etc.

To say that people had limited knowledge of the way business got done in this country is very very inaccurate. People knew damn well what was going on, but the gravy train is a nice ride once you don't question it.

The funniest thing is, I guarantee nothing will change. Fianna Fail won't get in next election. FG and Labour will prove themselves incapable of offering a credible alternative, house prices will eventually bounce back (but negative equity will still affect many). We'll boom and bust again, and when it happens, people will be thinking 'Jeepers we didn't know what was going on', and parish pump politics combined with the uninformed electorate will continue this country on wild swings of fortune.

As far as regulation goes, as the bust continues, regulation will tighten and stifle. As we boom again, we'll all think 'hey that can never happen again because we learnt our lessons the last time etc.' and away we'll merrily go thinking we're protected. Of course we won't be. And on and on.

g5fd6ow0hseima

Android 666 wrote: »

Its true that the government got voted in again and again and allowed to do whatever the fook they wanted but the perception to most people was that everything was rosy in the garden. Tbh the media wasn't telling them much different, journalists didn't scratch beneath the surface at all

I will agree with you on that one. David McWilliams was more or less on his own in predicting the economic stagnation (and indeed collapse) that this country would find itself in. Sadly though, despite being given some air-time regarding his viewpoints, nobody took any notice of his warnings. Therefore what you're saying is fully correct in that, as long as things were going well, people didnt care about politics, never mind government regulation.

It has always bugged me how the introduction, and indeed flourishing, of neo-liberal economic policies in this country was never met with much opposition from the population. As a small child, I remember the interested surrounding the privatisation of Telecom Eireann evolved around their share prices, with little attention paid to the infuriating fact that this privatisation also included the selling off of the national grid - such a vital part of our infrastructure. How could a country serious about being competitive on the world stage sell off their national grid? Although im making an uninformed statement here, surely this didnt exactly aid the nation's quest to develop a decent broadband network. Perhaps some of you could delve into this?

Android 666 wrote: »

when Bertie was being questioned about the fact that when he was minister for finance he didn't have a bank account

Im dumbfounded.

Android 666 wrote: »

Once a government was taken down for attempting to tax children's shoes

It seems it is only a 'think of the children' scenario which will compel the masses in this country into taking some sort of political action. Just look at the recent headshop furore for example. Unless the mothers are out on the streets, the government is safe.

The most depressing reality is that the alternative parties offer nothing. If the 2012 election heralds a Labour / FG coalition, it will either fail to run its course of be replaced by FF in 2016 - that, to me, is the most likely scenario. Nothing will change.

ianuss

jtsuited wrote: »

the uninformed electorate

This is the single greatest failing in Irish society. Politics should be a subject from primary school onwards.

electrogrimey

ianuss wrote: »

This is the single greatest failing in Irish society. Politics should be a subject from primary school onwards.

CSPE was a joke in secondary school though. It should be a compulsary Leaving Cert subject closer to political science/political theory. Instead of learning what TDs look like, people should learn about what politics is really like.

Four-Percent

electrogrimey wrote: »

CSPE was a joke in secondary school though. It should be a compulsary Leaving Cert subject closer to political science/political theory. Instead of learning what TDs look like, people should learn about what politics is really like.

Good in theory, but how are you going to get 16 year olds to make any sort of sense of aristotle, marx et al?

ianuss

Four-Percent wrote: »

Good in theory, but how are you going to get 16 year olds to make any sort of sense of aristotle, marx et al?

Look, It's not rocket surgery. Political theory is not too difficult a subject. If you can start to learn science from 1st year, you can certainly grasp the basics of political theory. I'm not saying kids should be writing a thesis on the subject - just that they have an idea of what their duties as a citizen are/should be.

Four-Percent

ianuss wrote: »

Look, It's not rocket surgery. Political theory is not too difficult a subject. If you can start to learn science from 1st year, you can certainly grasp the basics of political theory. I'm not saying kids should be writing a thesis on the subject - just that they have an idea of what their duties as a citizen are/should be.

They should be learning that already. Duties as a citizen are well covered in the CSPE course.See the Democracy, Rights & Responsibilities and Laws section.

Is it paying more attention that you're advocating?

electrogrimey

Four-Percent wrote: »

They should be learning that already. Duties as a citizen are well covered in the CSPE course.See the Democracy, Rights & Responsibilities and Laws section.

Is it paying more attention that you're advocating?

In CSPE for Junior Cert, literally all you have to do to get an A, is remember what the TDs heads look like, and draw a few posters about 'Reduce, Reuse, Recycle'. That's not even rhetoric, it's true. That's not teaching the youth to vote responsibly.

Android 666

jtsuited wrote: »

I'm sorry but I completely disagree. Everyone and their dog knew how FF ran government.
Great for business by taking brown envelopes so developers could ignore archaic planning laws.
Great for business by privatising and deregulating everything, and great for business by offering massive (and by massive I mean otherworldly massive) corporate tax breaks.

If you look at Reeling in the Years, you can see the same sh1t was going on from the late 60's. We all knew they were crooked but we all thought it in the nation's best interest to let them do whatever they do to get money into this country (we are incapable of supporting ourselves at the end of the day).

I have no idea what world people were living in but growing up, all I ever heard was Ray Burke this, Liam Lawlor that, Ben Dunne and Charlie Haughey did this and that, the arms crisis this, Padraig Flynn selling the m50 to the toll roads that, Ansbacher this, Beef Tribunal that, etc.

To say that people had limited knowledge of the way business got done in this country is very very inaccurate. People knew damn well what was going on, but the gravy train is a nice ride once you don't question it.

The funniest thing is, I guarantee nothing will change. Fianna Fail won't get in next election. FG and Labour will prove themselves incapable of offering a credible alternative, house prices will eventually bounce back (but negative equity will still affect many). We'll boom and bust again, and when it happens, people will be thinking 'Jeepers we didn't know what was going on', and parish pump politics combined with the uninformed electorate will continue this country on wild swings of fortune.

As far as regulation goes, as the bust continues, regulation will tighten and stifle. As we boom again, we'll all think 'hey that can never happen again because we learnt our lessons the last time etc.' and away we'll merrily go thinking we're protected. Of course we won't be. And on and on.

Sigh, I wish I could argue against that but I can't...

ianuss

Four-Percent wrote: »

Duties as a citizen are well covered in the CSPE course.See the Democracy, Rights & Responsibilities and Laws section.

I don't see anything there?? That course looks like a complete load of kock.

I'm talking about republicanism by the way, and not Irish republicanism either, civic republicanism. Where your allegiance is to the republic, and where voting decisions are made for it's greater good and not for personal interest.

That's why I'm suggesting political theory should be taught. Teach kids about the advantages/disadvantages of adopting different models, so that when they reach voting age they are able to make intelligent informed decisions. In the hope that, over time, we can change Irish politics from the bottom, up. Because there isn't a hope of changing Irelands flawed parochial familial bullsh1t politics from the politicians themselves.

ianuss

Nice mix from Terence Parker............check out what he's using to cue tracks

http://vimeo.com/10935098

And check out ~17 mins when he's playing and mixing 1 track on 2 records. Totally changes the track - I was well impressed. And I'm not one for scratching....

old gregg

... just back last night after a completely exhausting few days on my feet in Berlin. Loads and loads of new field recordings for the next project which starts next month.

Berghain was fun. Managed to stock up some older Kalkbrenner that I didn't have. Met some good people out in Noldnerplatz where I was staying and at €2.90 for a half litre of beer in the pub across the road I could hardly complain. They even smiled every time I'd slip outside for a toke and stumble back in with my head banging to death metal to order another beer. Techno on the trains, metal in the pub and Tangerine Dream for the late nights ( ... you're right .... TD does so work with Xananx). Berlin electronic music began with early Tangerine Dream for me as a teenager so that's where I tended to return to during the late nights.

Along the way had the surreal experience of having breakfast in the little pension I was staying in one morning and suddenly the song 'German Pussy' by Rammstein came on the radio. If you don't know it, then do find the totally NSFW vid on the interweb (it won't be on youtube). I dare you not to laugh.

Anyway, not quite the usual party report from Berlin mostly cos I wasn't there to party but a great time was had and I'll do it again and perhaps leave the recording equipment at home so I can go out and show off the latest dance moves.

jtsuited

sounds awesome Gregg. Fair play. I find anything that's sonically 'blurry' awesome with Xanax. A lot of the Krautrock stuff is that type of blurry to me. Also My Bloody Valentine. That type of vibe.

Who was playin in Berghain the night you were there?

BaZmO*

ianuss wrote: »

And check out ~17 mins when he's playing and mixing 1 track on 2 records. Totally changes the track - I was well impressed. And I'm not one for scratching....

That's moreso Beatjuggling rather than scratching. I have seen it done better though, but in a HipHop context. I've never seen a house mix with so much turntablism tricks and it was pretty impressive.....at least it seemed to go somewhere, unlike HipHop turntablism which always gets boring after 2 mins. Helps if you like that type of music too. I love that D Train track.

Is mise le key

jtsuited wrote: »

While the government are a bunch of incompetent tossers,.

Well firstly there was nothing incompetent about the government signing the countrys name on bonds to cover Anglo's losses, it was with full knowledge of the consequences for the country & what it meant for their cronies they did it, brian Lenihan doesnt look incompetent to me, he looks like he sell you in an act. In reference to the cronyism, I refer you to a letter sent into the Irish Times,

Madam,

I refer to your editorial dated 30th September and as a Labour Party member, read the editorial with great pride, as I and all Labour people, dead and alive never thought we would see this day, all of us who were the brick layers that helped to create this day with their toil & sweat when no one ever gave Labour a clear cut mandate to govern this nation.
Many of the policies of the past, which included nationalising the banks, have proven to be right and we can clearly see the ruling class sticking out like sore thumbs waffling their way through this massive crisis and true to form allowing working class people to be sent to jail for paltry sums of monies owed while the elite capitalist class walk around scot free after destroying our hard won independence.
The word treason is too good for describing them, criminals would be more appropriate.
Labour was asked to wait when our nation was being formed, the wait is over, the Nation has woken up.

Sounds about on the money to me.

jtsuited wrote: »

The reason we were wrong is that the vast majority of people wanted a market-capitalist consumer-led system.

jtsuited wrote: »

as long as we're scared of not owning land, we're not gonna get proper tenants' rights legislated.

The two parts of your one post are contradictory, if as you say the majority of people in the country want a capatalist system (and you have implied yourself also as you clearly made the distinction that you no longer buy into your anarchist/socialist college youth) you cannot justly go on to criticise people for then wanting to own land.....if i remember correctly is it not one of the fundamental rocks of capatalism to own land & property?

Android 666 wrote: »

Most people were happy with a capitalist system its true and you know what when I probably still probably go with it as a first choice even after all this bullsh1t.

Tell that to the two now twin infants later on in their life that despite their father, as an employee of anglo irish bank taking his own life at 32 because he couldnt handle the abuse being directed at him by the public, the capatalist system is the best way for society to live.

Capatalism when it goes bust tears society to shreds among the poorest, not the richest, and that is the singular most disturbing aspect of capatalism, while it tears familys apart when it goes bust & the rich remain sitting pretty, it has already instilled into peoples mind set that the alternative will take away all you hoped of aquiring during the boom even though it was all a falacy that you ever really aquired anything, you simply indebted yourself with interest for many many years to the purveyors of capatalism.

Capatalism counts on the human inclination towards greed of the general population to unwittingly feed the greediest at the top who will be unharmed by the turn of the cycle to bust.

Socialism & Communism are idealogical but they truly represent an intellectual break away from the ruling class mentality that has gripped the planet for centuries in support of the few living as the elite at the peril of the masses.

Whatever you think about the politicians in our country i'll give you my two cents,

FF are no gobsh.ites that are blundering there way through the economics of the day, they are drip feeding the truth of where we are heading to the public because if they let the cat out of the bag it would result in civil unrest but you can be sure they know exactly where this country is headed.

Now all you hear from FF supporters/voters & the 'Independant' media is where are the oppositions solutions?
Anyone with an ounce of sense will know that neither FG or Labour will announce anything they have in the way of policies now when the public is fully behind them to take power next election round only for FF to make a media frenzy around each one & damage the shift in support they now have. In particular it seems to be directed at labour moreso to announce it intentions, but take a look at the labour leaders, Gilmore, Quinn, Rabitte, burton, whatever you think of them they are certainly not wet behind the ears in politics & you can be sure they are keeping their powder dry no matter how much they are provoked by FF prior to an election.

Time will tell what the change in power that will take place in this country will hold.

Android 666

Is mise le key wrote: »

Tell that to the two now twin infants later on in their life that despite their father, as an employee of anglo irish bank taking his own life at 32 because he couldnt handle the abuse being directed at him by the public, the capatalist system is the best way for society to live.

What an extraordinarily trite statement to make. What about asking the relatives of the countless tens of millions killed by Mao and Stalin whether they think communism is the best way for society to live.

Is mise le key wrote: »

Capatalism when it goes bust tears society to shreds among the poorest, not the richest, and that is the singular most disturbing aspect of capatalism, while it tears familys apart when it goes bust & the rich remain sitting pretty, it has already instilled into peoples mind set that the alternative will take away all you hoped of aquiring during the boom even though it was all a falacy that you ever really aquired anything, you simply indebted yourself with interest for many many years to the purveyors of capatalism.

Whatever you might think of capitalism and I know there is much wrong with it but it allows for freedom of the individual. A person doesn't have to buy something if they don't want to. I'm sitting in a country that might be broke at the moment but I have a list of civil and legal rights that protect and allow me to express my own opinion. Can the same be said about China or Cuba?

Is mise le key wrote: »

Capatalism counts on the human inclination towards greed of the general population to unwittingly feed the greediest at the top who will be unharmed by the turn of the cycle to bust.

It also counts on ambition and success and allows the individual to pursue these things. I know its easy to see the people at the top of the capitalist tree as pure evil and they probably are. But show me an alternative system where there isn't even worse corruption.

Is mise le key wrote: »

Socialism & Communism are idealogical but they truly represent an intellectual break away from the ruling class mentality that has gripped the planet for centuries in support of the few living as the elite at the peril of the masses.

Whatever success Socialism has had (and in my opinion its only ever been successful in a capitalist context Communism is a dead duck. In principle its a great idea but it can never work because you have to force people to be equal and what good is that? People are ambitious animals at their core. Anytime that a country has had an ideology forced on its people its been an abject failure.

Whatever you think about the politicians in our country i'll give you my two cents,

Is mise le key wrote: »

Now all you hear from FF supporters/voters & the 'Independant' media is where are the oppositions solutions?
Anyone with an ounce of sense will know that neither FG or Labour will announce anything they have in the way of policies now when the public is fully behind them to take power next election round only for FF to make a media frenzy around each one & damage the shift in support they now have.

FG are as unpopular as FF at the moment what possible good is it doing them to not show a viable alternative to what the government is doing. I believe its because they don't have one

Is mise le key wrote: »

In particular it seems to be directed at labour moreso to announce it intentions, but take a look at the labour leaders, Gilmore, Quinn, Rabitte, burton, whatever you think of them they are certainly not wet behind the ears in politics & you can be sure they are keeping their powder dry no matter how much they are provoked by FF prior to an election.

Time will tell what the change in power that will take place in this country will hold.

Ostensibly you're saying that Labour are playing poker with the economy by holding their cards close to their chest and not telling the electorate what they are planning to do. Doesn't inspire much confidence in me when you say it like that.

jtsuited

Capitalism is what works (sort of) because it recognises and caters for human nature (sort of).
The group of primates that we belong to all share similar behavioural traits. We're fundamentally selfish, greedy and jealous.

The selfish thing is obvious. Most animals are.
If they had the intelligence to have foresight, they would be greedy by stockpiling resources.
Us clever monkeys know that while we don't want all those bananas today, we might need them in the future so we'll get every single one we can possibly get to ensure our survival. Which leads us to the second characteristic.....greed.

Greed is merely the desire to accumulate as much as we can. The only thing that stops a homo sapien from trying to get as much as possible is altruism. And altruism is a small part of our behaviour that really has more to do with the strengthening of social bonds (lots of survival benefit there). But it's merely a drop in the ocean of our profile which is mainly characterised by pure selfishness.

Jealousy is another little evolutionary phenomenon that ensures as wide and varied genetic pool as possible. Females that reproduce with many different males will lead to a weakened gene pool, full of half-brothers, 3 quarter - cousins, and all that. It's merely an emotional mutation that ensures that our kinship stays tidy, and hence our species survives. Female jealousy is to with the fact that 1 man can realistically only provide for one group of offspring.

Anyways, where was I.....oh yeah....
The more we understand ourselves as a species, the more many things make sense, like what motivates us to behave in a certain way, or why our society has become shaped into something that when looked at in a purely cerebral manner seems grossly unfair and frankly fcuked up.

Here's the reason I think capitalism works.....

People are not equal. Some are bigger, some are faster, some are smarter, some are better looking. The whole of nature is characterised by one big competition. Capitalism while really being a fairly fcuked up notion, seems to be in line with our nature.
It's just a system based on brutal competition for resources.

Now whether we can overcome our fundamental nature is where I reckon me and Is mise disagree. We should be able to build an egalitarian society where social darwinist competition is irrlevant. We should be able to use our great intellect to overcome our selfish impulses and do what is best for our fellow man.

I know that a Darwinian explanation of society is used as a weak cop-out for justifying an incredibly corrupt system, normally by neoliberal nutbags (who ironically tend to be creationists!!!) but I am not for one minute saying 'Hey we're just like this, this is all we got, etc.'

I'm saying that the system that has the least resistance to our most fundamental desires is the one that is going to prevail. And I'm not saying it's pure market capitalism either.
We're entering a period of history where we are moving towards a social-democracy style capitalism (the Scandies have been at it for years of course), where we are trying to get the best of all the historical ideologies eg. we aim for the health care of Cuba, the welfare of the Nordic countries, and the yee-ha crazy no holds barred capitalism of the US.
We're (and by we I mean the World, not this country - we can't make those decisions) only finding our feet now just after realising that Communism (in the Stalinist/Leninist context) didn't work, and Capitalism (as in the unregulated pure capitalism we've seen collapse only to be saved by governments) didn't work.

I know it's cheesy to say, but we do need a Third Way. Many people sneer at the humanities and social sciences but tbh I feel they're more important now than ever as we try to figure out how to get the best from all these 'different but valid in their own way' ideologies.

BaZmO*

Ah jaysis lads! Me head! It's a Monday