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Graduate takes uni to court over his result...

[Deleted User]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-11376021

"A Belfast graduate has taken his university to court after they awarded him a 2:2 degree.
Andrew Croskery, from County Down, applied for a judicial review of the grade he received from Queen's University in Belfast.
Mr Croskery claimed if he had received better supervision he would have obtained a 2:1, the High Court was told on Monday."

Students annoy me at the best of times but this is just taking the p1ss...better supervision?? Sorry mate, you're an adult, you're at university, you're supposed to be independant enough to not need your hand held the whole way along!
I would imagine this wouldn't do him any favors in his future employment prospects either, employers will click why his name seems familiar and remember this is the guy who took his university to court just because he didn't do as well as he wanted to and steer clear of him...but sure, graduates know best eh :rolleyes:

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Aswerty

This guy sounds exactly like he was in the same position I was 2 years ago except I didn't sue anyone.

My thesis was initially based on one thing which I chose and had an interest in but my supervisor had the authority to change the project because he needed something else done. I was doing an engineering course and my new project was in a field that was not really relevant to my course and I had no experience in. I had absolutely no support on my project due to having nobody in my working group who had any understanding of the technology I was dealing with. I of course gave a stab at it but my ability to understand and make progress was severely limited. And the worst thing is the point you realise the project is beyond you is after the point you can do something about it.

Now my supervisor wasn't exactly known for people skills so the whole thing turned into a bit of a mess and I got a result that just put me under the 2:1 mark. I think if I had a supervisor that was half decent, no scratch that. If i had a supervisor that didn't think he could use me to do research into an area because he didn't have anyone knowledgeable in that area at hand I would have been able to do a project relevant to my field and gotten the result I needed.

What really galled me was that project work has always been my forté but in this case it completely screwed me over.

I thought about appealing my result but that would have caused me to accuse my supervisor of being incompetent which would have been a serious accusation which I didn't feel up to making.

I've done a Masters since then and I'm hoping that the 2:1 minimum jobs won't be a problem anymore but they were a worry last year when I was looking for jobs and being just off the required minimum.

brianthebard

LZ5by5 wrote: »

It might not be a simple case of that though. The fact that we're talking about a supervisor in itself indicates that we're talking about a research project or a thesis. If that is the case, anyone who has written a thesis will tell you how much of a significant role their supervisor played in the result they got. So if this bloke was writing a thesis and his supervisor's contribution was non existent then I would sympathise with his situation.

If that was the case then I would have slightly more sympathy for the fool, but if he's doing an M.Litt or PhD he had up to four years to ask for a new supervisor or a secondary supervisor. If he was doing a Masters, regardless of the thesis grade he should have been able to bring the whole thing above a 2.2 by doing well on the other modules.

eta; its called a degree rather than a postgrad in the article so he should have been able to do his work with or without proper supervision tbh.

[Deleted User]

LZ5by5 wrote: »

It might not be a simple case of that though. The fact that we're talking about a supervisor in itself indicates that we're talking about a research project or a thesis. If that is the case, anyone who has written a thesis will tell you how much of a significant role their supervisor played in the result they got. So if this bloke was writing a thesis and his supervisor's contribution was non existent then I would sympathise with his situation.

Exactly. I don't know what the story is with this guy, but it's normal to expect some level of supervision when writing a dissertation. My supervisor went out on sick leave over the summer (not her fault obv, but the university never informed me of this fact and I wasn't reassigned to another supervisor) and I think my work suffered greatly as a result. The whole point of having a supervisor is to get feedback, to have someone to tell you what you need to improve, what you should cut out and so on. It has absolutely nothing to do with being spoonfed. You can work your arse off but if you don't have a good supervisor, you're at a disadvantage compared to other students. Some supervisors will even look at an entire first draft and return it with notes in the margins - compare that to a student having to work on their own. I know my circumstances have affected the quality of my work and I'm not happy about it at all. If I'd paid the fees out of my own pocket, I'd certainly consider an appeal because I didn't receive the supervision I'd paid for. Now, it sounds like the guy was doing an undergrad degree, but supervision is still important.

Aswerty

brianthebard wrote: »

If that was the case then I would have slightly more sympathy for the fool, but if he's doing an M.Litt or PhD he had up to four years to ask for a new supervisor or a secondary supervisor. If he was doing a Masters, regardless of the thesis grade he should have been able to bring the whole thing above a 2.2 by doing well on the other modules.

eta; its called a degree rather than a postgrad in the article so he should have been able to do his work with or without proper supervision tbh.

Undergrad theses can be 25% of a degree. If the rest of his work is above the 2:1 degree mark and his thesis brings the average below but the circumstances of his thesis indicates he was given an unfair disadvantage surely that could indicate that he has a case? Supervisors can dictate the subject, the content and the purvey of a thesis to a very considerable degree and can be very inconsistent with what they want with respect to each.

I can't really see how someone can change supervisors since other supervisors will already have a bunch of students and won't want another one. Colleges can be very rigid with respect to things like this since allowing changes make things less fair and more complicated.

Of course we're just shooting in the dark since we don't actually know his circumstances. I'm just saying that he might be justified in suing although I don't think it is the most constructive of actions.

pakb1ue

Naikon wrote: »

Sure a 2.1 is the "gold standard" for academia and whatnot, but I would take a 2.2 in engineering or computer science over a 1.1 Arts student anyday. Engineering courses tend not to suffer from grade inflation. And for good reason.

I can see were your coming from but I have a 2.1 in Computer Science and I dont think I would be able to get the same grade if I did an Arts degree. I have good analytical skills but ask me to write about some Roman God I wouldnt have a clue were to even start.

That said if I had picked Arts I would have probably done Computer Science and Maths.

For my research project in final year I would have been lost without the help of my supervisor as I had to learn a new language and for my thesis I didnt even know were to start and my supervisor gave me heading on what to write about and made changes to the work I had already done. It was worth 25% of my overall grade.

Handsome Bob

pakb1ue wrote: »

I can see were your coming from but I have a 2.1 in Computer Science and I dont think I would be able to get the same grade if I did an Arts degree. I have good analytical skills but ask me to write about some Roman God I wouldnt have a clue were to even start.

I think that's what he was so nicely getting at though, that it doesn't matter if you know nothing about Roman Gods because it isn't important. That's how I interpreted it anyway.

Naikon

LZ5by5 wrote: »

I think that's what he was so nicely getting at though, that it doesn't matter if you know nothing about Roman Gods because it isn't important. That's how I interpreted it anyway.

I like to think about it this way:

Engineer-> Accountable for public safety in most instances
Arts student-> Accountable to nobody(except maybe the Arts department)

Not to say that Arts is piss easy, it's just that Engineering requires a distinct level of rigour which is reflected by the fact most engineering courses in general put other courses out there to shame in contact hours/exam difficulty. I say this as a CS person just to note. Seriously though, anyone who can manage a 2.2 in an Engineering discipline is still probably more employable than most "University Educated" grads.

Plautus

I'm sure it warms the blood like nothing else to put down 1.1 students in Arts as being the product of grade inflation but it'd be nice to see some proof of that. The percentage of firsts awarded varies from university to university and from department to department within Arts faculties. Rates of attainment of firsts can be as low as 3% of the class or as high as 15% when these criteria are accounted for.

So I'd suggest you look at the person's degree subjects, where they got the degree, and how they were graded in research projects or the like at undergrad before you suggest that firsts are anything other than worked for and deserved.

Engineer-> Accountable for public safety in most instances
Arts student-> Accountable to nobody(except maybe the Arts department)

No student of engineering will ever be accountable for public safety - he won't be left in charge of any building project. So he's only accountable to his department as well. If we're talking about what happens to the respective graduates in their lives after they graduate - Arts students too can be employed in positions of great trust and care. Think about teachers for example.

Naikon

Plautus wrote: »

I'm sure it warms the blood like nothing else to put down 1.1 students in Arts as being the product of grade inflation but it'd be nice to see some proof of that. The percentage of firsts awarded varies from university to university and from department to department within Arts faculties. Rates of attainment of firsts can be as low as 3% of the class or as high as 15% when these criteria are accounted for.

So I'd suggest you look at the person's degree subjects, where they got the degree, and how they were graded in research projects or the like at undergrad before you suggest that firsts are anything other than worked for and deserved.

No student of engineering will ever be accountable for public safety - he won't be left in charge of any building project. So he's only accountable to his department as well. If we're talking about what happens to the respective graduates in their lives after they graduate - Arts students too can be employed in positions of great trust and care. Think about teachers for example.

Ok, I am being unfair to the Arts people. I apologise for picking out Arts as an example. Just saying, Engineering is proably one of the most difficult courses to complete at University level, and this is reflected by the coursework, which in itself reflects the standards set by IEI and whatnot. I will use another example, I would probably take a 2.2 Engineering student over a 1.1 CS graduate:pac:

parker kent

Naikon wrote: »

I like to think about it this way:

Engineer-> Accountable for public safety in most instances
Arts student-> Accountable to nobody(except maybe the Arts department)

Not to say that Arts is piss easy, it's just that Engineering requires a distinct level of rigour which is reflected by the fact most engineering courses in general put other courses out there to shame in contact hours/exam difficulty. I say this as a CS person just to note. Seriously though, anyone who can manage a 2.2 in an Engineering discipline is still probably more employable than most "University Educated" grads.

Why are you comparing Arts students accountability when they are still in college to the accountability of engineers in their jobs after college? Surely you should compare their accountability in the jobs they end up doing?

I know Engineering students who are mathematically brilliant but are otherwise extremely weak in terms of written ability, decision making etc. In other words, things that are important in many jobs. Plus as is mentioned above, Arts students are often teachers. Also, remember that Arts students often do a postgraduate course that gives them a professional qualification in any number of areas. So they can end up in any number of jobs that are accountable.

Naikon

parker kent wrote: »

Why are you comparing Arts students accountability when they are still in college to the accountability of engineers in their jobs after college? Surely you should compare their accountability in the jobs they end up doing?

I know Engineering students who are mathematically brilliant but are otherwise extremely weak in terms of written ability, decision making etc. In other words, things that are important in many jobs. Plus as is mentioned above, Arts students are often teachers. Also, remember that Arts students often do a postgraduate course that gives them a professional qualification in any number of areas. So they can end up in any number of jobs that are accountable.

I know. I should proably remove that comment. Pretty stupid statement on my behalf. I won't try to argue this idiocy further. Apologies. Just try to ignore the fact I left a big gaping hole:o

brianthebard

Aswerty wrote: »

Undergrad theses can be 25% of a degree. If the rest of his work is above the 2:1 degree mark and his thesis brings the average below but the circumstances of his thesis indicates he was given an unfair disadvantage surely that could indicate that he has a case? Supervisors can dictate the subject, the content and the purvey of a thesis to a very considerable degree and can be very inconsistent with what they want with respect to each.

I can't really see how someone can change supervisors since other supervisors will already have a bunch of students and won't want another one. Colleges can be very rigid with respect to things like this since allowing changes make things less fair and more complicated.

Of course we're just shooting in the dark since we don't actually know his circumstances. I'm just saying that he might be justified in suing although I don't think it is the most constructive of actions.

Well you don't know the circumstances either so we're even. You can go to the department and tell them you have a problem and they will help you out in some way. Some people don't realise this is possible but it is.

Cake Man

Hahaha I used to work with the fella in question, couldn't believe it when I read it, really is something he'd do tbh!

Mr. CooL ICE

LZ5by5 wrote: »

It might not be a simple case of that though. The fact that we're talking about a supervisor in itself indicates that we're talking about a research project or a thesis. If that is the case, anyone who has written a thesis will tell you how much of a significant role their supervisor played in the result they got. So if this bloke was writing a thesis and his supervisor's contribution was non existent then I would sympathise with his situation.

I met with my supervisor twice at the beginning of my thesis, and he was as helpful as claustrophobic sardine. I didn't meet him until 5.5 months later for the presentation where I got a B1. Not bad for no supervision.

Aswerty

brianthebard wrote: »

Well you don't know the circumstances either so we're even. You can go to the department and tell them you have a problem and they will help you out in some way. Some people don't realise this is possible but it is.

That's why I said "we" don't know the circumstances.

ScissorPaperRock

Naikon wrote: »

but I would take a 2.2 in engineering or computer science over a 1.1 Arts student anyday.

This makes no sense. I did a combination of Computer Science modules includong Signal Processing and Speech Processing which basically involved a lot of engineering-type maths, as well as Geography - strange combination, I know, but that's not the point.

It was much easier to get higher grades in Computer Science where answers tend to be definitively right or wrong, whereas within Geography, like most arts subjects, answers are subjective, and people rarely get higher than 70%.

I also found that Geography had a much heavier workload than my Computer Science modules.

QuiteInterestin

I thought it was generally accepted that no matter how good or bad you did in your project/thesis you were always awarded a similar mark in your project to that which you acheived in your written assignments/exams in your final year? We were told in college that while a good project could push you up or down if you were boarderline between grades e.g. averaging a high 2.2, a good project mark could push you into a 2.1, it would never allow you to jump from a 2.2 to a first no matter how good it was, or vice verse. This is to allow for the differences students will experience during their project, e.g. a fantastic student with an supervisor who doesn't give a damn and gives them no help/guidance whatsoever or a weaker student who gets a great supervisor/team to work with who practiacally write the project up for them and so hands up a project far superior to anything they have previously submitted or been capable of. Thats what we were told anyways and this has been the experience of others I know

parker kent

Naikon wrote: »

I know. I should proably remove that comment. Pretty stupid statement on my behalf. I won't try to argue this idiocy further. Apologies. Just try to ignore the fact I left a big gaping hole:o

You had posted your correction to your original just as I posted mine so it is OK!

[Deleted User]

brianthebard wrote: »

Well you don't know the circumstances either so we're even. You can go to the department and tell them you have a problem and they will help you out in some way. Some people don't realise this is possible but it is.

And often, they just tell you there's f**k all they can do about it. I got screwed over with my undergrad supervisor, a guy who never turned up to our arranged meetings. I went to see the head of dept about it and was told there was nobody else who could take on my dissertation. A similar thing happened to my boyfriend. When I did my MA thesis, my supervisor went out sick and nobody told me. I spent weeks going to her office, emailing her and contacting other lecturers before I bumped into someone who told me what had happened. A lot of academics are really completely useless.

c_man

Don't know the circumstances but it could be a legit complaint. If for instance, he's claiming lack of supervisor input on an engineering FYP.

I had a terrible supervisor for mine. A new guy, advised badly and was rarely willing to help in the slightest. Looking back on it I could have done much better. I'm in a research Masters now and my supervisor is great. It makes a hell of a difference.