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WebMail - Maynooth SU policy doc

banquo

Next week Maynooth SU will release a research document about prospective 3rd-party mail hosting services to replace the NUIM WebMail. Google Apps and Hotmail / Live@Edu are the main focuses. All suggestions, contributions and arguments for and against are super welcome.

(It's worth mentioning that Union Council already voted unanimously that the SU back Google Apps in this debate, but I thought it should go up for public discussion anyway).

I forsee this thread consisting mostly of an debate between myself and Alt_Grrr....

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banquo

I'm not getting involved in the debate over GMail vs Hotmail or Webmail, but I'll just clear up a few concerns:

1. It saves money. Lots of it. I don't know the exact figure yet but other Irish unis have saved 70+K a year. There is absolute zero cost in terms of hardware or anything else (we host it ourselves at the moment, so this is another thing we save on)

2. Webmail isn't ''broken'' - it does exactly what it's supposed to do, which is to send and receive emails. GMail and Hotmail also send and receive emails, but include other optional features which many could find useful (I won't list them here) So it's not a question of 'fixing' a problem but providing a better service for less money.

3. This issue and others (eg parking, food prices on campus, etc) are mutually exclusive. So doing this doesn't somehow detract from pursuits in those other areas. They're completely different. This is purely about the email service, though other functionalities should be taken into account also.

4. There is no disruption to the user in the changeover. You log in one day with the same name and password and all your emails are there, just with a different interface.

I'm asking people to choose a preference between the two email giants. Although if someone wants to tout actual user-related reasons why Webmail provides a better service to students then that's appropriate too.

Edit:

Liber8or wrote: »

We need other areas to be examined, areas which actually affect student's lives. Not a fancy calender

The current system has a calendar. I'll call the Computer Centre and have them scrap it for you*.

*could not resist

irish_goat

If it saves money go for it.

mp3guy

banquo wrote: »

3. This issue and others (eg parking, food prices on campus, etc) are mutually exclusive. So doing this doesn't somehow detract from pursuits in those other areas. They're completely different. This is purely about the email service, though other functionalities should be taken into account also.

As mutual exclusion is a term that is often used in computer science, I don't think your use of it is entirely correct. :pac:

But anyway. Is a change in email service definitely going to happen or is there a chance it won't and we'll still have the good old service until the next proposal for change?

banquo

As mutual exclusion is a term that is often used in computer science, I don't think your use of it is entirely correct. :pac:

Oi!

My use of it is perfect.

mp3guy wrote: »

But anyway. Is a change in email service definitely going to happen or is there a chance it won't and we'll still have the good old service until the next proposal for change?

The second one, although I believe that (eventually) all Irish unis will outsource mail to save money. This is long term, but in the event of a change I want feedback on to what. GMAIL OR HOTMAIL.

cian1500ww

Will the current spam filter still be used if we change or will it switchover to Gmail or Hotmail's spam filter as, in all fairness to it, I've never had any spam in my nuim webmail account?

banquo

cian1500ww wrote: »

Will the current spam filter still be used if we change or will it switchover to Gmail or Hotmail's spam filter as, in all fairness to it, I've never had any spam in my nuim webmail account?

People either seem to get loads or none at all in their webmail! I've spoken with folks who can't find their actual email for spam, and folks who've literally never gotten a thing. I guess it depends on their browsing habits, I don't really know.

To answer you're question: we'd get either Hotmail's or GMail's spam filter, whichever service we hypothetically chose.

Miss Lockhart

If the move will save money then that's a good thing, provided the new service will work well. I have major problems with how slow the Webmail is to upload attachements. It takes anything from 5 to 15 minutes to upload a simple PowerPoint presentation. Any other email I've used takes a few seconds. It's a pain.

However, I don't know enough about GMail or Hotmail to say which one is better. I have always used Hotmail and I just forward everything to it. It does exactly what I need (sends and receives email efficiently) so I've no interest in changing that. I dread logging in to Webmail if I want to send something from my college address.

Everyone I know seems to love GMail though, so it must be doing something right!

Nision wrote: »

Also comparing the urgency of this issue to other things that the SU has zero control over is mind numbingly stupid.

You think the food on campus is too dear eh?

THERE ARE FLOODS IN PAKISTAN AND CHILDREN STARVING IN AFRICA!
That has to be a bigger priority than O'Briens prices?

Therel always be problems, this is one the SU can do something about before it becomes a real one.
Fair play to Rob for the pre-emptive strike and being proactive rather than waiting for a future SU to have to react.

Why bring floods and famine into a conversation about what the SU has control over? I wouldn't be so quick to accuse others of being "mind numbingly stupid"!

Alt_Grrr

banquo wrote: »

I'm not getting involved in the debate over GMail vs Hotmail or Webmail, but I'll just clear up a few concerns:

1. It saves money. Lots of it. I don't know the exact figure yet but other Irish unis have saved 70+K a year. There is absolute zero cost in terms of hardware or anything else (we host it ourselves at the moment, so this is another thing we save on)

2. Webmail isn't ''broken'' - it does exactly what it's supposed to do, which is to send and receive emails. GMail and Hotmail also send and receive emails, but include other optional features which many could find useful (I won't list them here) So it's not a question of 'fixing' a problem but providing a better service for less money.

I very much doubt that figure (I worked for a company thats big in the messaging services space (SMS, e-mail, IM)) nobody can make a saving that vast, unless they ran the email server on the blood of endangered animals

TouchingVirus wrote: »

The cost for Google Apps appears free for education, but you will still need equivalent functionality of the Copperfasten spam filter - Google are offering this at a cost of $12 per user - so for 8000 email accounts (approximate number of staff & students) that's $96,000 per year from what I can see.

Hardware expenditure - there are dedicated servers for webmail, just like there are for file storage. Yes, this requires hardware expenditure but it's amazing how cheap it is to build a very effective mail system - it doesn't require powerhouse computers.

Licensing - I honestly have no idea what the license costs for Copperfasten or My Calendar Express from Sun Microsystems/Oracle are.

Lets take it that the hardware needs to be upgraded every 3 years - you're talking 225,000 euro with Google Apps. And lets just say the licensing is costing NUIM 50k per year, there's no way NUIM are spending 75,000 euro (225k-150k licensing) just to run a mail server.
.

And it seems it would be more expensive to throw away the current email service in the middle of its life and replace it with something else. And since the university doesn't have any money these days, it seems like a bit of a waste

Nision wrote: »

First of all, lets deal with this "web mail is fine" notion.
Yes it sends and receives emails, (with massive delays if you add attachments). But email has moved way beyond that now,
This change IS coming, its a question of which way GMail or hotmail we go.

For example as standard now there's a spell check, calender that syncs with events, lectures etc, Google Docs, Ability to send from a choice of addresses from one account, the fact that people only need to check one account, the ability to keep ones @nuim.ie address after graduation etc etc

I'll let you in on a little secret, email has changed very little (if at all) in the last 20 years, sure the bells and whistles around it have changed, but email is still email.

The current webmail isn't sexy, but it works.
And from what I've heard from the computer centre in the past is, that the change isn't really coming. since nobody wants to hand over a vital part of the campus communications system to an outside company.

Nision wrote: »

Look at the best University's etc across the world, this is happening regardless of wheter we as students examine our options and make our input heard in the decision.

I await your list of the "best University's", from what criteria they have decided on this change, usually publicized "case studies" are sexed up beyond reignition (Just look at Microsoft's "Get the Facts" Campaign)

Nision wrote: »

Also comparing the urgency of this issue to other things that the SU has zero control over is mind numbingly stupid.

As the SU has no say over how the Computer Centre run the network, ergo, this is discussion is also, mind numbingly stupid.

Nision wrote: »

Fair play to Rob for the pre-emptive strike and being proactive rather than waiting for a future SU to have to react.

more like, Fair play to Rob for trying to badger the University to wasting money on a new email system.

TouchingVirus

For example as standard now there's a spell check, calender that syncs with events, lectures etc, Google Docs, Ability to send from a choice of addresses from one account, the fact that people only need to check one account, the ability to keep ones @nuim.ie address after graduation etc etc

Spellchecks are provided by browsers too you know.

A calendar that syncs with events - how is this anything to do with webmail?

Google Docs - again, relevancy?

Ability to send from a choice of addresses from one account/check the one place to receive all your email - email clients provide this functionality and have done for years.

Keeping your @nuim.ie address after graduation - No, You move off to xxx@alumni.nuim.ie - this is already a Google Apps based service.

It's funny how alumni.nuim.ie is a Google Apps based service, yet for some reason the Computer Centre haven't moved all the way over. I'd like to think the Computer Centre done their homework and decided against the move.

banquo wrote: »

To answer you're question: we'd get either Hotmail's or GMail's spam filter, whichever service we hypothetically chose.

Not from what I can gather. If by default there was spam/AV filtering then why would google be hawking Postini in their own FAQ?

Google Apps for Education is free. We plan to keep the core offering of Google Apps Education Edition free. This includes user accounts for incoming students in the future. As you may know, Google was founded by a research project at Stanford University, and this is just one way we can give back to the educational community.

......

If you would like to purchase Google Message Security and Compliance for filtering or archiving purposes, this will have a per user fee depending on the services you choose. Each package is listed here.

http://www.google.com/postini/email.html - $12 per user

Hardware
Also, I predict the hardware currently in use to provide email services wouldn't be decommissioned, it would be added into other services. And when it fails, it would be replaced. There wouldn't be any savings on hardware as a result.

Spam
The people who always get spam really need to talk to the Computer Centre and see what's wrong, when it works right the settings are so damn good it stops real emails sometimes, which is why I'd suggest setting a weekly report be delivered to you (via https://copperfasten.nuim.ie/)

4. There is no disruption to the user in the changeover. You log in one day with the same name and password and all your emails are there, just with a different interface.

There'll be disruption, planned or unplanned it will happen. No matter what integrity checks are done, something will go wrong.

Support/Changeover

Apparently Google recommend the changeover should take 6 weeks. Since the Systems Team would be pretty stretched as is, who's going to handle the changeover? Are they going to have to hire extra bodies to work on this changeover fulltime or let the current systems die in a hazy mess while the current team works on it?

Who's going to now support not only Gmail, but Google Docs and whatever other applications the computer centre add in? There were people complaining about how useless the Computer Centre were in another thread on here, can you imagine now if they don't hire more people to support the Google Apps? Oh, and when something does go properly wrong, who do you call? What will you say when Google take 2 days to get back to you on an issue you consider critical (and let's face it, everybody with a problem thinks it's critical).

When it comes to support you get what you pay for ...and free, well, I'm sure you get the picture. Support and Administration is a pretty big issue, one you folks seem to be overlooking slightly.

It's boiling down to "Google Apps is pretty, I want it". You can have it, but why should the Computer Centre adapt something when there are valid alternatives in place?

Valid user-based reasons why not
Campus based users will always have access to their email even when HEAnet has a hiccup.

Sending mail from NUIM->NUIM is quick, fast, doesn't pass through spam filters, and basically cannot get lost. It's also the most secure.

Trust. Grab your tin foil hats gang because do you trust Google? You get nothing for nothing in this world, so what do you think Google are pushing this initiative for? Here's a few choice excerpts

Terms wrote:

1.7. Data Transfer. As part of providing the Service, Google may store and process Customer Data in the United States or any other country in which Google or its agents maintain facilities. By using the Services, Customer consents to this transfer, processing and storage of Customer Data.

I know Google processes data for GMail to target ads, but why process data for Education, after all there are no ads in Apps for Education

3.4 No Fees. Google may charge a fee for the Services after the initial term, and may charge a fee for new functionality or optional enhancements that may be added by Google to the Service. Google may also offer a premium version of the Services for a fee. Prior to Google charging Customer as stated in this section, Google and Customer will negotiate either a new agreement or an amendment to this Agreement.

The initial term is 4 years, after which Google may or may not charge. Not exactly clear cut. So in 4 years we may have significant costs because we might not agree to the new terms and opt out. Now you have given you users nice features and have to take them away, you can imagine they'll not be best pleased. And now you've got to buy the hardware because the services are coming back here too, ouch!

American Law - what? We've got to adhere to both US and Irish law now, lovely. And we all know the US is a fairly ligitous place, there are laws and regulations for everything.

The biggest reason why not is that the Computer Centre offers a single point of user-support. You can call them, you can go over and see them. Try calling Google. The buck stops with the CC, it doesn't rest with somebody on US time with a support queue as long as your arm so when the sh*t hits the fan, they will fix it.

banquo

Perhaps my original question was too complicated.

Do you prefer GMail or Hotmail as an email service?

TouchingVirus

banquo wrote: »

Perhaps my original question was too complicated.

Do you prefer GMail or Hotmail as an email service?

That was not your original question..

Next week Maynooth SU will release a research document about prospective 3rd-party mail hosting services to replace the NUIM WebMail. Google Apps and Hotmail / Live@Edu are the main focuses.

Google Apps and Hotmail/Live@Edu are the main focuses - i.e. not the only ones

All suggestions, contributions and arguments for and against are super welcome

Arguments for and against what? Each of the respective hosts? Well my arguments against Google Apps are valid for Hotmail/Live@Edu too. Now it seems that what you meant was "Arguments for and against each service in respect of the other"

Can I ask why you're not entertaining the other points raised in the thread though? Is it a head-down bullthrough approach or something? Or do you think they are non-issues?

banquo

OK, I promised myself I wouldn't get dragged into this, but this is crazy. Dude, there are just no facts in any of your arguments. Just paranoid inferences and questions phrased to sound like inevitable occurences.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

I'd like to think the Computer Centre done their homework and decided against the move.

Citation needed.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Not from what I can gather.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

If by default there was spam/AV filtering then why would google be hawking Postini in their own FAQ?

Postini is optional super-crazy-extra level protection, not required.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Also, I predict the hardware currently in use to provide email services wouldn't be decommissioned, it would be added into other services.

Citation needed.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

The people who always get spam really need to talk to the Computer Centre and see what's wrong, when it works right the settings are so damn good it stops real emails sometimes.

That IS good!

TouchingVirus wrote: »

There'll be disruption, planned or unplanned it will happen. No matter what integrity checks are done, something will go wrong.

Citation needed.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Apparently Google recommend the changeover should take 6 weeks. Since the Systems Team would be pretty stretched as is, who's going to handle the changeover?

Google.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Are they going to have to hire extra bodies to work on this changeover fulltime or let the current systems die in a hazy mess while the current team works on it?

No extra hiring. So no ''dying in a hazy mess.''

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Who's going to now support not only Gmail, but Google Docs and whatever other applications the computer centre add in?

Google.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

There were people complaining about how useless the Computer Centre were in another thread on here, can you imagine now if they don't hire more people to support the Google Apps?

Extra hiring not required.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Oh, and when something does go properly wrong, who do you call? What will you say when Google take 2 days to get back to you on an issue you consider critical (and let's face it, everybody with a problem thinks it's critical).

Have it here in the SU. No problems.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

When it comes to support you get what you pay for ...and free, well, I'm sure you get the picture. Support and Administration is a pretty big issue, one you folks seem to be overlooking slightly.

Not true.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

It's boiling down to "Google Apps is pretty, I want it". You can have it, but why should the Computer Centre adapt something when there are valid alternatives in place?

Google Apps is unbelievably useful, and I do want it. The world does not revolve around the Computer Centre. They work for the University which, funded with tax money, works for the students.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Campus based users will always have access to their email even when HEAnet has a hiccup.

So 1/8 of NUIM students will have access to their email during the very short time that HEAnet is down, which pretty much never happens. Not a huge selling point.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

I know Google processes data for GMail to target ads, but why process data for Education, after all there are no ads in Apps for Education

No ads is... good? No?

TouchingVirus wrote: »

The initial term is 4 years, after which Google may or may not charge. Not exactly clear cut.

There are no facts in this statement. To quote Google, "Google Apps for Education is free. We plan to keep the core offering of Google Apps Education Edition free. This includes user accounts for incoming students in the future."

TouchingVirus wrote: »

So in 4 years we may have significant costs because we might not agree to the new terms and opt out.

Citation needed.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

American Law - what? We've got to adhere to both US and Irish law now, lovely.

I don't know where to begin with this.

TouchingVirus wrote: »

The biggest reason why not is that the Computer Centre offers a single point of user-support. You can call them, you can go over and see them. Try calling Google. The buck stops with the CC, it doesn't rest with somebody on US time with a support queue as long as your arm so when the sh*t hits the fan, they will fix it.

In seven years, GMail has been down for 1 hour.

Make an objective list of genuine concerns that's free of adjectives and I'll answer them. Seriously. I'm happy to.

Back OT.

Alt_Grrr

to effectively sum all of your rebuttals up in one go

"I don't believe you *fingers in ears* nah nah nah nah nah nah"

Alt_Grrr

banquo wrote: »

In seven years, GMail has been down for 1 hour.

First Off, Gmail was launched in 2004 (6 years ago)

and on average its down for about 30 minutes every month
due its 99.9% uptime (rather then then 99.999% uptime demanded of outsourced email firms)
Wikipedia Link

Alt_Grrr

banquo wrote: »

I don't know where to begin with this.

In fact TouchingVirus is correct, as much as it pains me to say that

14.10 Governing Law. This Agreement is governed by California law, excluding that state’s choice of law rules. FOR ANY DISPUTE RELATING TO THIS AGREEMENT, THE PARTIES CONSENT TO PERSONAL JURISDICTION IN, AND THE EXCLUSIVE VENUE OF, THE COURTS IN SANTA CLARA COUNTY, CALIFORNIA.

from Terms of Service of Google Apps for Education

banquo

Alt_Grrr wrote: »

First Off, Gmail was launched in 2004 (6 years ago)

and on average its down for about 30 minutes every month
due its 99.9% uptime (rather then then 99.999% uptime demanded of sourced email firms)
Wikipedia Link

Distortion, as that 99.9% figure is for GMail and not Google Apps, which is what's proposed. Google Apps was and is unaffected by GMail downtime.

The 12 hours a year maintenance is correct, though it happens at night, like most maintenance. It's worth mentioning that all mail services have scheduled downtime, as our own Webmail has had.

Edit: As for the law, it's the same issue with any software, including Microsoft Office on all campus PCs. We have to follow the law of the country/region the software was patented in. If that's a reason to say no, then we'll all be using Linux* on campus.

*I know you'd love this

Alt_Grrr

banquo wrote: »

Distortion, as that 99.9% figure is for GMail and not Google Apps, which is what's proposed. Google Apps was and is unaffected by GMail downtime.

The 12 hours a year maintenance is correct, though it happens at night, like most maintenance. It's worth mentioning that all mail services have scheduled downtime, as our own Webmail has had.

Nope, Google even advertise the apps service as having 99.9% uptime (See Link)

in a calender year Google Apps is down for about 8.7 hours

TouchingVirus

Alt_Grrr wrote: »

In fact TouchingVirus is correct, as much as it pains me to say that

Christ, don't hold back

banquo wrote: »

OK, I promised myself I wouldn't get dragged into this, but this is crazy. Dude, there are just no facts in any of your arguments. Just paranoid inferences and questions phrased to sound like inevitable occurences.

You clearly have no experience of working in environments at any other level than as an end user if you think there are no facts in my arguments. I, on the other hand, have several years experience at stuff like this. I have seen in great detail and been involved in several major migrations to other platforms. I am not claiming to be top dog at this stuff, there are others out there whose entire livelihood is based on costing migrations and implementing them, but I do know what I'm talking about.

*I hate that boards doesn't allow embedded quotes, so I'll overuse 'regarding'*

Regarding Postini being a super-crazy extra level of protection - it's entire function is already provided for by current systems. Without it we are swapping to an inferior service in my opinion.

Regarding existing servers being not being decommissioned - what else do you think will happen to them? They are an investment, an asset. You can never have too many assets in IT when it comes to servers. If you can afford to buy it you can afford to keep it. NUIM would get nothing for selling it. It will be added elsewhere, changing it's role to a backup DHCP server, another file-storage server, a backup LDAP server etc. And once this happens it will not be decommissioned. Redundancy is awesome.

Regarding my assertion that Copperfasten is so good it can stop real mail - I've been using GMail since the early days, when it was invite only and each invitee got only 1 invite to pay it forward, not 50, and not the everybody-come-on-in approach. I still have 4 gmail-based accounts. Every once it a while I'll find an email in there that is also real. That's what happens when you base things in probability.

Regarding stuff going wrong I think you're just being pedantic here. Things go wrong, it's a common fact. The best laid plans of mice and men.. Problems happen. Problems migrating major services definitely happen. Their knock on effect can be minimal, but they will happen.

Google will not migrate NUI Maynooth to Google Apps for Education. There is a whole section on the Google Apps for Education FAQ about a six-week plan to migrate that it suggests system administrators for the college use. The migration will be done by the Computer Centre and it will be done by the Systems Team - a grand total of 7 people, two of whom are networks only, another two who manage the DHCP/DNS servers and do a whole other bunch of stuff, and I have no idea what the other three do to be honest but I'm sure they're not idle.

You have Google Apps in the SU, and I have Google Apps on my own domain. No major problems here either. There are maybe 10 people in the SU. I've just got me on my domain. NUIM has 8000 users. Somebody will need support on issues like uploaded Documents to Google Docs, how to use the Calendar, why their event isn't showing up, they don't seem to be syncing etc etc. Not every user in this college is a power-user, many people are nearly out of their depth checking email. Who do they get in touch with for assistance? User Support in the Computer Centre is their first port of call. This is also not the only thing User Support has to provide support for, extra hiring may be required and almost definitely will be required in the short term around the time the Migration takes place.

Google Apps is unbelievably useful, and I do want it. The world does not revolve around the Computer Centre. They work for the University which, funded with tax money, works for the students.

You've got to be taking the p*ss here. Where did I say otherwise? The computer centre provide you with what you require. You're not gaining anything by switching to Google Apps apart from "handiness". It is not a requirement to provide students with the latest and greatest or even with the most cost effective solution. If it was then every service offered to students would be based in 'the cloud'. Can you get your hands on cold hard facts provided by other institutions about how many students are using Google Docs/Calendar/<insert other handy, but not required feature here>? Have you polled the entire student populous to see what the uptake of each service other than Gmail would be, Union Council is not an accurate representation btw. Have you weighed this against the effort it'll take to migrate when these features are freely available to any user who wants them anyways? Why don't the Computer Centre provide students with all sorts of services available from all sorts of companies for free? I mean it'll cost them nothing, right? The benefits, for everybody and not just the students, or a subgroup of students, needs to outweigh the effort in migrating.

So 1/8 of NUIM students will have access to their email during the very short time that HEAnet is down, which pretty much never happens. Not a huge selling point.

A selling point nonetheless. We are dependent on ourselves at the minute to provide NUIM->NUIM email. We become dependent on a whole host of other things, many of which are out of the college's control, and out of our Timezone if we change.

No ads is... good? No?

It sure is, but why then do they need to process the data?

There are no facts in this statement. To quote Google, "Google Apps for Education is free. We plan to keep the core offering of Google Apps Education Edition free. This includes user accounts for incoming students in the future."

....

Citation needed.

I'm afraid you missed the fine print in the Google Apps for Education Terms of Service - in particular Section 3.4. It can be read in laymans terms as "Free at the minute, but who knows what the future may hold".

Since you think the hardware used at the minute will be decommissioned (since you wanted a citation for standard IT practice when I said they wouldn't) it would stand to reason that if a server is decommissioned and sold on/dissolved as an asset then if the services were to migrate back to NUIM there be it because a fee is being implemented or a change in terms that didn't suit us, there would be a cost outlay for the purchase of hardware, licenses that were let lapse etc etc.

I don't know where to begin with this.

Don't. It's a fact. How it may affect us you don't know. Nor do I. It is a point though.

In seven years, GMail has been down for 1 hour.

That's not the only time GMail has been inaccessible. As a user of the internet, and a seemingly knowledgeable one at that, have you never encountered a site that appeared down to you because of DNS issues/routing issues but when you visited say downforeveryone.com it reported the site as up? What are the alternatives when you have an essay due and there are problems like this? Well if you're in Maynooth at the minute you can mosy on down to college and rest easy knowing NUIM->NUIM mail will work on campus.

Support for Google Docs/Gmail/Google Apps is provided by the University. It's right there in the FAQ/Guide for deployment - setting up extra phones, getting your helpdesk in order for the migration etc etc. General support isn't provided by Google. Sure, if there really is an issue then Google Apps for Education gets priority support, but this can only be raised by the Computer Centre, who wait then for a resolution. And what is priority support, what are the turnaround times for issues? The Computer Centre are effectively middlemen now, you're at the mercy of Google for everything from "I can't upload this particular document", "I clicked this button but nothing happened on Internet Explorer 6" to "I'm a new student and I need my account setup".

Just as an additional point - Do you know how many Government departments operate their own IT infrastructure, costing the taxpayer quite a sum of money in networks, support, hardware etc? I've got experience with Justice and Revenue. The same infrastructure could easily be placed into a datacentre or on 'the cloud' somewhere, providing a much more cost effective solution, guaranteed 99.9% uptime and lots more benefits. Why don't they just all migrate over and save themselves a fortune? Security, Privacy and Support would be way up there on the list of whys.

Make an objective list of genuine concerns that's free of adjectives and I'll answer them. Seriously. I'm happy to.

You're not quite happy to though

Ian Beale

If the email service was to change I'd prefer google over hotmail however I agree with another poster, if it's not broke then no need to fix it. How many emails does the average student send in a week/month - very little, the only times I ever used mine was to send a message to a lecturer.

Alt_Grrr

banquo wrote: »

Edit: As for the law, it's the same issue with any software, including Microsoft Office on all campus PCs. We have to follow the law of the country/region the software was patented in. If that's a reason to say no, then we'll all be using Linux* on campus.

*I know you'd love this

that's different, if your licensing the software that's one issue, where as this is a service.

With very different legal implications.

banquo

(Not Alt_Grrr)

cian1500ww

Ian Beale wrote: »

If the email service was to change I'd prefer google over hotmail however I agree with another poster, if it's not broke then no need to fix it. How many emails does the average student send in a week/month - very little, the only times I ever used mine was to send a message to a lecturer.

Good point, I always use my personal email for contacting lecturers. We could probably do without an email service altogether as everyone has their own email address outside of college anyway !!

TouchingVirus

banquo wrote: »

(Not Alt_Grrr)

That's some attitude to a post that's not only meant to highlight several issues with your apparently flawless plan, but could also be used to enhance your document that you intend to present the Computer Centre, provided you can refute them. You do belong in student politics to be honest.

It's clear to me you have overlooked a good few issues, big issues as far as the Computer Centre will be concerned. I'm actually disappointed that you weren't around trying to implement this change 2 years ago when I was a student, taking apart such an ill-thought out plan at Union Council would have been my pleasure, or would you have fobbed me off then too? :rolleyes:

Alt_Grrr

banquo wrote: »

(Not Alt_Grrr)

Yeah Banquo, stop trolling already.
not exactly sure who else your accusing here.

Alt_Grrr

cian1500ww wrote: »

Good point, I always use my personal email for contacting lecturers. We could probably do without an email service altogether as everyone has their own email address outside of college anyway !!

I think for a lot of emails to university staff, its just a matter of professionalism,
nobody wants to reply to an email sent by sluty-fresher92@yahoo.ie

Also keeping business, pleasure and spam in separate accounts is just good practise these days

Ian Beale

TouchingVirus made some good points and you said it yourself in your first post that the union was already backing Google Apps so why bother coming on here and saying

banquo wrote: »

All suggestions, contributions and arguments for and against are super welcome.

(It's worth mentioning that Union Council already voted unanimously that the SU back Google Apps in this debate, but I thought it should go up for public discussion anyway).

if your going to get in a huff because someone did point out some flaws and then call them a troll for doing so.

Alt_Grrr wrote: »

I think for a lot of emails to university staff, its just a matter of professionalism,
nobody wants to reply to an email sent by sluty-fresher92@yahoo.ie

Spot on, that's exactly why I use the @nuim email when mailing lecturers.

funky penguin

I'm far from the most knowledgeable on the interwebs or its internal workings, but Christ almighty if you all don't settle down and stop pissing about over e-mails, I swear to God my hangover is gonna be a rough one tomorrow.

Even if you disagree, Banquo has clearly made it known that this discussion is between the two heavyweights of Hotmail and GMail with minute possibilities of others, so discuss their merits please.

banquo, please no more stupid pics, and your original post incited an argument against Alt_Grrr was uncalled for, so I'm banning you for a week.

Discuss whether you'd prefer Hotmail over Gmail or other options, just keep it civilized.

Two things:

1) If someone pisses me off with their behaviour in this thread I'll ban them for a month, no arguments.

2) A member of the exec has explicitly asked for your opinion on an important agenda facing college communications. Whatever way he went about it, appreciate that this is to be highly respected and commended.

/sleeps

mp3guy

Well, if it HAD to be one or the other, I'd go with Gmail, since I already use that to manage all of my email.

[Deleted User]

I have no technical input so I won't even try to pretend that I do!

I prefer Gmail, the layout is nicer and I think it's an easier website to navigate around. Uploading attachments is fast and easy, no fuss.
I think hotmail is outdated, very basic and simple. There isn't anything wrong with it essentially, but I always get spam on it. I've never had spam on my gmail.

CORaven

Really, putting aside ifs and maybes, is there any significant advantage of one over the other?

*edit*
If it costs $12/student with gmail, how much is live's alternative?

Over the span of two years, what will be the cost of providing a service with the same standards as our current system if..
• we leave it as it is?
• the move to gmail?
• the move to live?
I would like to know more info before I could make a decision.