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Cén fáth a raibh Gaeilge bhaintear as an ardán Dunlaoghaire? [Read edit in 1st post]

Run_to_da_hills

[Victor]Some of this thread is in Irish, there is a google translator here: http://translate.google.com/#ga|en|[/Victor]

Thug mé ar De Luain seo go bhfuil an Gaeilge baineadh as an imeall ardán Dunlaoghaire agus d'fhan an leagan Béarla den rabhadh. :mad:

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Sponge Bob

-Chris- wrote: »

OK, some ground rules before this thread continues.
Also, I firmly believe this discussion should be in English. I realise it's about
I hope that makes sense. Thanks

Ach níor scríobh mise ariamh ach faoin gcomtharaíocht ar an árdán féin !!!! Is soiléar gur saineolaí ar a leithéid de chúrsaí mise i gcomparáid le formhór iad siúd a dhfreagair.

Níl tada sna rialacha thart anseo faoi theanga.

Foghlaim cén chaoi Google Translate a úsáid in ainm dé .

-Chris-

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Ach níor scríobh mise ariamh ach faoin gcomtharaíocht ar an árdán féin !!!! Is soiléar gur saineolaí ar a leithéid de chúrsaí mise i gcomparáid le formhór iad siúd a dhfreagair.

Níl tada sna rialacha thart anseo faoi theanga.

Foghlaim cén chaoi Google Translate a úsáid in ainm dé .

Infraction given to Sponge Bob for ignoring on-thread request/warning.

dlofnep

Nvm, it's not worth the hassle.

Sponge Bob

-Chris- wrote: »

Infraction given to Sponge Bob for ignoring on-thread request/warning.

Cé'n fath gur ghlac Calina, duine den bhainistíocht thart anseo buíochas liom ar an gcéad lá ariamh nuair a scríobhas seo ????

Please to right to clicky clicky clicky englishee speeking person >>>>>>>> NÍL AON RUD SA NA RIALACHA MAIDIR LE CÚRSAí TEANGA .

-Chris-

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Cé'n fath gur ghlac Calina, duine den bhainistíocht thart anseo buíochas liom ar an gcéad lá ariamh nuair a scríobhas seo ????

Please to right to clicky clicky clicky englishee speeking person >>>>>>>> NÍL AON RUD SA NA RIALACHA MAIDIR LE CÚRSAí TEANGA .

Sponge Bob banned for 3 days for ignoring on-thread request/warning.

That username is already in use.

This is not exclusive to Ireland. There are many places around Europe which also use minority languages on transport signage and announcements.

To name a few: Wales, Brittany, Scotland, Valencia, Catalonia, Galicia and the Basque Country.

Their respective native languages are a minority (less so with Catalan) but there are regulations in place, just like in Ireland, for bilingual signage and recorded announcements on public transport.

The Irish language is the first offical language of the State, and as a citizen of Ireland, I feel that it is my right to be able to communicate with all State bodies in Irish, and at least be able to read public signage or listen to announcements in the official language of my choice.

----

Regarding the OLA, there is a loophole in the regulations.

For example, the signage currently in place in most of Irish Rail´s stations go against the recommened guildlines.

a) The text in Irish shall appear first.
b) The text in Irish shall be as prominent, visible and legible as the
text in English.

As you can see on the sign below

(orange text and sodium lighting = barely readable Irish, also, the English comes first)

However, the regulations also state:

d. For signs placed on any site that comply with the Regulations (a, b) except the text in Irish is less prominent, visible or legible than the text in English ... [Must be rectified by 1 January 2026]

This means that signage could theoretically be erected with English is huge font and Irish in unreadable font, and it wouldn´t have to be changed until 2026.

So far, from what I´ve seen, most government bodies are not using this loophole, eg. the signage for RPA (Luas) and the DAA (Dub Airport) have followed the regulations (a, b), and Irish comes first and in the same font as the English.

DAA:

RPA:

However, Dublin City Council are using this loophole. A lot of their recent signage has English in larger font.

eg. signage erected by DCC over the past month that go against the OLA guidelines:

New way finding signage in the city:

*
Signage in DCC Leisure

Should be interesting to see if other government bodies discover this loophole and start using it.

[Deleted User]

New IE signage, such as on the WRC and Midleton lines, has the Irish appearing first. But the vast majority don't.

foggy_lad

I would have thought they were not allowed do this as the regulations are in place and the 2026 date applies to older signage that may be costly to replace sooner?

That username is already in use. wrote: »

This is not exclusive to Ireland. There are many places around Europe which also use minority languages on transport signage and announcements.

To name a few: Wales, Brittany, Scotland, Valencia, Catalonia, Galicia and the Basque Country.

Their respective native languages are a minority (less so with Catalan) but there are regulations in place, just like in Ireland, for bilingual signage and recorded announcements on public transport.

The Irish language is the first offical language of the State, and as a citizen of Ireland, I feel that it is my right to be able to communicate with all State bodies in Irish, and at least be able to read public signage or listen to announcements in the official language of my choice.

----

Regarding the OLA, there is a loophole in the regulations.

For example, the signage currently in place in most of Irish Rail´s stations go against the recommened guildlines.

a) The text in Irish shall appear first.
b) The text in Irish shall be as prominent, visible and legible as the
text in English.

As you can see on the sign below

(orange text and sodium lighting = barely readable Irish, also, the English comes first)

However, the regulations also state:

d. For signs placed on any site that comply with the Regulations (a, b) except the text in Irish is less prominent, visible or legible than the text in English ... [Must be rectified by 1 January 2026]

This means that signage could theoretically be erected with English is huge font and Irish in unreadable font, and it wouldn´t have to be changed until 2026.

So far, from what I´ve seen, most government bodies are not using this loophole, eg. the signage for RPA (Luas) and the DAA (Dub Airport) have followed the regulations (a, b), and Irish comes first and in the same font as the English.

DAA:

RPA:

However, Dublin City Council are using this loophole. A lot of their recent signage has English in larger font.

eg. signage erected by DCC over the past month that go against the OLA guidelines:

New way finding signage in the city:
*
Signage in DCC Leisure

Should be interesting to see if other government bodies discover this loophole and start using it.

Victor

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

What gets me is that for the last century and a half there was nothing but granite flagstones at the edge of the platform. There was no written warnings telling people not to step beond lines, "not to fall off the edge" or "get too close" :rolleyes:

In those days it was worse, you were likely to get a clobber from an opening door on a Parkroyal or Craven. .

Have people become so stupid in the last decade that they now have to be told not to step too close to the edge of the platform?

Its not just about safety, a clear platform edge means the train / tram can approach the platform faster. I imagine the drivers don't relish clipping someone at the edge of the platform.

Cookie_Monster

Victor wrote: »

Its not just about safety, a clear platform edge means the train / tram can approach the platform faster. I imagine the drivers don't relish clipping someone at the edge of the platform.

see, thats the angle they should push. it makes it faster, everybody loves faster, safer be damned...

dowlingm

they should use the Youtube of the spotter in the UK who was so busy photographing a train on the far track he nearly got taken out by a train passing him on the near one.

Riskymove

That username is already in use. wrote: »

----
However, Dublin City Council are using this loophole. A lot of their recent signage has English in larger font.

actually I think the font is the same size but simply in bold for the english

That username is already in use.

Riskymove wrote: »

actually I think the font is the same size but simply in bold for the english

foggy_lad wrote: »

I would have thought they were not allowed do this as the regulations are in place and the 2026 date applies to older signage that may be costly to replace sooner?

OLA:
b) The text in Irish shall be as prominent, visible and legible as the text in English.
c) The letters in the text in Irish shall not be smaller in size than the letters in the text in English.

So..
b. The English is in bold, which makes the Irish less prominent.
c. The letters in English are larger than the letters in Irish.

..which means it does not comply with the regulations, but, the OLA regulations state:

"For signs placed on any site that comply with the Regulations except the text in Irish is less prominent, visible or legible than the text in English or the letters in the text in Irish are smaller in size than the letters in the text in English. [must be rectified by 1 January 2026]"

Basically, for all new signs, as long as the Irish comes first, it doesn´t matter what size it is. It could be completely illegible compared to English and wouldn´t have to be corrected until 2026. This, as I see it, is a loophole.

You can download the OLA Guidebook here.

Back to Run to da Hills OP

The above "sign" was in breach of the regulations because:

OLA - Signs already erected prior to 1 March 2009

..which would seem to explain it´s recent removal. The Irish version will have to repainted onto the platform by 2012.

Breezer

That username is already in use. wrote: »

If signs with incorrect Irish spellings on them are all going to have to be replaced by 2012, the various authorities are going to have their work cut out.

I'd love to know why the wording on the platforms was changed when it had previously been correct.

That username is already in use.

Breezer wrote: »

If signs with incorrect Irish spellings on them are all going to have to be replaced by 2012, the various authorities are going to have their work cut out.

Just a reminder:

The OLA Regulations do NOT apply to traffic signs. Traffic signs are covered under the Traffic Signs Manual.

---

I have received clarification from An Coimisinéir Teanga regarding the suspected loophole.

An Coimisin&#233 wrote: »

The statement at (D) in the Guidebook to the Official Languages Act published by this Office refers only to signage which was erected prior to the 1 March 2009. Any sign which is erected after that date and is found not to be in compliance with the legislation must be corrected immediately (within a reasonable time-frame, allowing for ordering, making and erecting the sign).

In relation to the DCC signage

An Coimisin&#233 wrote: »

As regards the signage referred to in the post, it would appear, at first glance, that these are not compliant, as the English language version is more prominent.

As far as I know, those new signs around the city were erected by jcDecaux as part of the Dublin Bikes/Advertising scheme. The OLA regulations clearly state that

A public body has a duty to ensure that signs placed by it or on its behalf within or outside the State are in Irish or bilingual.

So, the new DCC signage is in breach of the regulations and will have to be replaced ASAP.

And in relation to signage erected by Iarnród Éireann

An Coimisin&#233 wrote: »

..there is further legislation on signage in the case of Iarnród Éireann in the Transport Act 1950, which states that all permanent signage must be bilingual. This would take precedence over the requirement in the Official Language Act which gives a lead in time to correct signs erected prior to 1 March 2009 – there is no such lead in time in the case of the Transport Act, and non-compliant signage should be corrected as soon as it is identified.

-Chris-

I accept there are regulations etc. and that these signs should have been produced in line with these regulations.

I hate the idea, however, that JCDecaux will have to spend €x,000 replacing the signs and may use this as a reason to invest less on the bikes themselves. €x,000 could be used to buy a good few bikes or otherwise be put to good use.

Cookie_Monster

Will they* not just use the excuse that there is no money to replace these signs to get around the legislation. It is a monumental and stupid waste of money to replace massive numbers of perfectly good signs to something that will require more reading and hence cause more confusion than necessary, especially for tourists

*government, city & county councils, JCD etc

devnull

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Will they* not just use the excuse that there is no money to replace these signs to get around the legislation. It is a monumental and stupid waste of money to replace massive numbers of perfectly good signs to something that will require more reading and hence cause more confusion than necessary, especially for tourists

I agree, it would be a complete waste of money, at the end of the day I don't see any problem with the sins, it's not as if they are inaccurate, there are far more important things to spend money on.

[Deleted User]

If it's just a spelling mistake or incorrect word, it's just a simple task of patching the sign, just look at all the road signs that were patched last year when they decided that HQDC's were really motorways after all!

That username is already in use.

I have seen numerous examples of signage that was erected by DCC after March 2009 that is clearly in breach of the regulations, yet nothing has been done about it.

17 months later, and the people in charge of managing the implementation and design of these signs are either unaware of the regulations or are deliberately contravening them.

What´s the point of having these OLA signage regulations if they are not enforced? DCC should be setting an example and strictly following the regulations, but they are not.

The wayfinding signage should be replaced immediately, along with the other illegal signage erected by DCC around the city. Otherwise, the regulations are redundant, and government bodies will continue to ignore them.

If that becomes the case, and the regulations are not enforced; remove them from the OLA altogether, or continue to contravene the regulations and then waste money replacing signs later.

Those wayfinding signs were only erected last week, and the regulations have been in place for almost two years now. DCC should know better.

edit: Ah, now I can thank posts!

Stonewolf

That username is already in use. wrote: »

I have seen numerous examples of signage that was erected by DCC after March 2009 that is clearly in breach of the regulations, yet nothing has been done about it.

17 months later, and the people in charge of managing the implementation and design of these signs are either unaware of the regulations or are deliberately contravening them.

What´s the point of having these OLA signage regulations if they are not enforced? DCC should be setting an example and strictly following the regulations, but they are not.

The wayfinding signage should be replaced immediately, along with the other illegal signage erected by DCC around the city. Otherwise, the regulations are redundant, and government bodies will continue to ignore them.

If that becomes the case, and the regulations are not enforced; remove them from the OLA altogether, or continue to contravene the regulations and then waste money replacing signs later.

Those wayfinding signs were only erected last week, and the regulations have been in place for almost two years now. DCC should know better.

edit: Ah, now I can thank posts!

We need all the money to pay for Anglo instead, what does it matter if the Irish is a bit smaller, people can read the English on it and that's what matters.

That username is already in use.

Stonewolf wrote: »

What does it matter if the Irish is a bit smaller, people can read the English on it and that's what matters.

I suggest that you contact your local TD and An Coimisinéir Teanga and request that the guidelines "B" and "C" be removed from the Official Languages Act.

Until then, if government bodies continue to ignore the regulations, the price for the replacement of the illegal signage will be out of your own pocket.

Breezer

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Will they* not just use the excuse that there is no money to replace these signs to get around the legislation. It is a monumental and stupid waste of money to replace massive numbers of perfectly good signs to something that will require more reading and hence cause more confusion than necessary, especially for tourists

*government, city & county councils, JCD etc

The debate about whether or not money should be spent on Irish language signage is a valid one. However, I don't believe the idea that having bilingual signage is confusing for tourists to be so. I've been to Belgium and coped just fine with French/Flemish signs, and similarly French/German in Switzerland. I've managed similarly well in airports, which often have trilingual signage. I don't believe I'm any more gifted in languages I don't speak than the average tourist who doesn't speak Irish, so I really can't see the problem.

Victor

Stonewolf wrote: »

We need all the money to pay for Anglo instead, what does it matter if the Irish is a bit smaller, people can read the English on it and that's what matters.

Do you mean like "Anglo Irish Bank"? :pac:

Cookie_Monster

Breezer wrote: »

The debate about whether or not money should be spent on Irish language signage is a valid one. However, I don't believe the idea that having bilingual signage is confusing for tourists to be so. I've been to Belgium and coped just fine with French/Flemish signs, and similarly French/German in Switzerland. I've managed similarly well in airports, which often have trilingual signage. I don't believe I'm any more gifted in languages I don't speak than the average tourist who doesn't speak Irish, so I really can't see the problem.

if you are doing 120 past a road sign, the last thing you want is to be trying to figure the Irish from the English, if you don't speak either too well.

The main point is the waste of money in changing. I'd imagine DCC are perfectly aware that the signs aren't correct but simply don't care as they realise nobody really cares about the Irish on signs, and display English more prominently. For every 1 person who complains about Irish not on signs, I'm sure you have 5-10 giving out about Irish being ON signs.

markpb

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

The main point is the waste of money in changing. I'd imagine DCC are perfectly aware that the signs aren't correct but simply don't care as they realise nobody really cares about the Irish on signs, and display English more prominently

+1

They probably should have done it properly for new signs but making them replace all the old signs is a giant waste of money with absolutely no benefit at all. The Irish is there, people can read it, who cares?

Victor wrote: »

Do you mean like "Anglo Irish Bank"? :pac:

mickydoomsux

markpb wrote: »

+1

They probably should have done it properly for new signs but making them replace all the old signs is a giant waste of money with absolutely no benefit at all. The Irish is there, people can read it, who cares?

The usual suspects, the same people who are keeping Irish on the cirriculum as a mandatory subject even though it's utterly useless and the majority of students don't enjoy studying it.

Transportuser09

mickydoomsux wrote: »

The usual suspects, the same people who are keeping Irish on the cirriculum as a mandatory subject even though it's utterly useless and the majority of students don't enjoy studying it.

What has that got to with commuting and transport?

Cookie_Monster

Transportuser09 wrote: »

What has that got to with commuting and transport?

what has any of this thread?

Infrastructure or Irish forum

Empire o de Sun

Well for road signs Dublin City Council is ok.

They just don't bother with them