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Anti American Rhetoric, why?

bobblepuzzle

There's a lot of anti-american sentiment in AH... was just wondering why?

Because they went into Iraq to remove a prick, is that it??

Don't forget the amount of good the US has done for Ireland... whether it be investment or help in the North...

Seems to me anti-americanism is fashionable in Ireland these days, but the arguments put forward are clueless at best and just downright stupid at worst (yes there are stupid Americans, but there are also stupid Irish) They've done a lot more for the world than we have, so fo with your s****

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Kasabian

Cmdr Keen wrote: »

But your not... thats the thing! All you spiel out is arrogance, and might I ask you sir, have you ever been to the states?

I have been to and lived in the states, lovely people , lovely country , but sadly most of it's people are clueless on geopolitics and geography , hence the reason Bush had two terms.

speedboatchase

R0ot wrote: »

1 in 4 Americans are retarded.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmEp97yQcRQ

Put it this way - there are 50 states in America and a huge breadth of landscapes, architecture and history between them - America should really be seen a giant federal continent and so it doesnt surprise me if a lot of Americans don't have a passport (every type of weather you need is in the US from Miami to Alaska) or aren't too sharp on a world map if they're learning about 50 states. The vast amount of Irish couldn't name more than a tiny few states on a US map, hell I wouldn't even be that good naming all the counties on our map

I love America, not a huge fan of the foreign policy but I do still love them. AHers can be a bunch of smug hippies sometimes but you get used to it. Anyone ever notice that 'anti-war' really just means 'anti-whatever war America is in'?

Also Irish people being smug about Americans is such a depressing, laughable idea - and I'm Irish. With our proportional representation (coalitions, tons of parties who don't push the boat out or challenge status quos), embarrassingly generous state benefits, meek attitude to travellers/illegal immigrants, overpaid public service and tosser union leaders, generation leaving on a boat and Jedward - we are completely in the sh***er

Local-womanizer

bonerm wrote: »

Take all their "heroic" efforts in Haiti for example. It was worked out it was something like 50-100 cheaper to for the US to send aide and money there rather than let the problem play itself out and then deal with the rush of illegal immigrants on US borders and beyond.

I've nothing particular against the place but it should not be presumed that we owe the US anything.

In fairness,that is just smart. Why let the immigrant problem get any worse in America? And sure they are still helping out the Haitian people,its a win-win.

The same with Pakistan at the moment.

I agree with the last bit though.

filthymcnasty

[QUOTE=

Take all their "heroic" efforts in Haiti for example. It was worked out it was something like 50-100 cheaper to for the US to send aide and money there rather than let the problem play itself out and then deal with the rush of illegal immigrants on US borders and beyond.
QUOTE]

worked out by who?
Whatever about the million other dodgy shenanigans the yanks have gotten up, I dont believe this. They sent in an aircraft carrier with water sanitation facilities, 5000 troops to maintain order and distribute US aid and water, supplied medicines ,clothing, construction workers, doctors and expertise etc etc.
But still its not enough and there has to be an ulterior motive. I think they played a good part here, as did many other countries.

speedboatchase

filthymcnasty wrote: »

[QUOTE=

Take all their "heroic" efforts in Haiti for example. It was worked out it was something like 50-100 cheaper to for the US to send aide and money there rather than let the problem play itself out and then deal with the rush of illegal immigrants on US borders and beyond.
QUOTE]

worked out by who?
Whatever about the million other dodgy shenanigans the yanks have gotten up, I dont believe this. They sent in an aircraft carrier with water sanitation facilities, 5000 troops to maintain order and distribute US aid and water, supplied medicines ,clothing, construction workers, doctors and expertise etc etc.
But still its not enough and there has to be an ulterior motive. I think they played a good part here, as did many other countries.

Engaging in a debate with that guy is a tremendous waste of your brain cells, just walk away now with your dignity intact before he attracts a few fellow bath-dodgers

Capt'n Midnight

Cmdr Keen wrote: »

There's a lot of anti-american sentiment in AH... was just wondering why?

Because they went into Iraq to remove a prick, is that it??

They had no problem dealing with him before that.
Even when the USS Stark was attacked and 37 US sailors killed nothing was done.

A year later the US navy shot down an Iranian passenger jet killing 290 people

It's the double standards

It's the lip service to democracy while supporting dictatorships and overthrowing democratically elected governments

It's insisting that everyone in the world has to obey US laws (rendition etc.) while insisting that US personnel breaking foreign laws can be tried in the US (and frequently given non custodial sentences or acquitted)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/340507.stm - six months for destroying video evidence
but acquitted of killing 20 Europeans ('cos the third world casualties don't count :mad: )

Kasabian

I wonder what alarm bells this thread is setting off :pac:

Man down , man down , Cmdr Keen has been flushed out.

Overheal

R0ot wrote: »

1 in 4 Americans are retarded.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

Yes, thats empirical proof of a serious learning disability. Cop the f*ck on.

aligator_am

This thread reminds me of the same crap with Israel, if you say anything negative about Israel's actions then it must equate to hating all Jews, according to the logic of some.

Not trying to drag the thread off topic by the way.

Any Americans that I've ever talked to have been nice folk, never been there but would like to someday. Seems to me that a lot of Americans are almost religiously addicted to Fox news and the propaganda it spouts, I know how effective this is as after 9/11 I watched Sky news a lot and became convinced that Saddam had every weapon known (I was young and foolish then lol) but sadly it seems that much of American telly is saturated with this stuff, pushing jingoism on impressionable youths.

Something that Americans should be really asking is why in the hell has the Federal Reserve never been audited? and why did it give out (at last count) $23.7trillion to foreign banks?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDJc0PZV-Bk

Also, bear in mind that China is America's biggest creditor, if they decided to pull the plug and demand all that cash back in one go it would most likely wipe out America, would be like the cold war all over again except it would be China winning this time without firing a shot.

Anyway OP, the point I'm trying to make to you is that while (in many people's opinions) the American populace are good folk, their elites are a shower of charlatans, same goes for Ireland too, and the majority of countries most likely.

So no, I don't think there's an anti American sentiment in here, I think you may find that people's opinions here are far more unaltered by Fox news and it's ilk, which may be a bit of a wake up call to many Americans, it may prove difficult to see that not everyone in the world goes around waving American flags and chanting USA at the drop of a hat.

Capt'n Midnight

Cmdr Keen wrote: »

They've done a lot more for the world than we have, so fo with your s****

How The Irish Saved Civilization: The Untold Story of Ireland's Heroic Role from the Fall of Rome to the Rise of Medieval Europe is a non-fiction historical book written by Thomas Cahill.

Here is the funny picture
http://static.funnyjunk.com/pictures/christian_dark_ages0.jpg

but the reality is that very little technical knowledge was lost thanks to the the Irish. Instead of having to reinvent the wheel the "Dark ages" produced things the Romans never had

The Heavy Plough
Tidal Mills
Hour Glass
Blast furnace
Glasses
Clocks
Spinning wheel
Quarantine as a means to prevent disease
Printing

Overheal

aligator_am wrote: »

Seems to me that a lot of Americans are almost religiously addicted to Fox news and the propaganda it spouts

So no, I don't think there's an anti American sentiment in here, I think you may find that people's opinions here are far more unaltered by Fox news and it's ilk, which may be a bit of a wake up call to many Americans, it may prove difficult to see that not everyone in the world goes around waving American flags and chanting USA at the drop of a hat.

You have an overly simplistic view of the American Media if you think FOX is the voice of America. Or that Americans don't know how we are perceived internationally. I'm not sure you grasp just how large the US is, how many demographics exist within it, how many political viewpoints exist. For example you might read on Wikipedia that 75% of the population is Christian: but does that really tell you anything? Does it tell you who among them is the psycho-crusader type and who are the Joe Soaps? It really doesn't. You're gravely mistaken to take a small sample of American culture like FOX of all things and use the Clone Brush to paint the whole country with it.

cypharius wrote: »

Although I will say, that I have yet to meet an American(Online or otherwise) who has heard of Blackwater.

Hi.

ElaElaElano

speedboatchase wrote: »

Anyone ever notice that 'anti-war' really just means 'anti-whatever war America is in'?

Also Irish people being smug about Americans is such a depressing, laughable idea - and I'm Irish. With our proportional representation (coalitions, tons of parties who don't push the boat out or challenge status quos), embarrassingly generous state benefits, meek attitude to travellers/illegal immigrants, overpaid public service and tosser union leaders, generation leaving on a boat and Jedward - we are completely in the sh***er

So, Irish people being smug about Americans is such a depressing, laughable idea, yet you feel it necessary to be...smug about the way Ireland is run. So criticism of any country's leadership or foreign policy must instantly mean we're the picture of paradise ourselves, and if we're not, we shouldn't say anything. Okay.

Also, thanks for pigeonholing anyone who's anti-war as anti-American. Makes loads of sense because clearly, people have never come together to oppose wars not involving or in anyway related to the US. The troubles must've been a figment of my wishy washy anti-American leftist ideological brain. Or...for a different approach- generally, the anti-war movement of recent times has connotations with 'anti-whatever war America is in' because America has a recurring habit of involving itself in major wars where it's neither needed nor wanted.

Kasabian

cypharius wrote: »

I don't.

Although I will say, that I have yet to meet an American(Online or otherwise) who has heard of Blackwater.

The river ? . It's hard enough to get them to understand where the middle East is :pac:

aligator_am

Overheal wrote: »

You have an overly simplistic view of the American Media if you think FOX is the voice of America. Or that Americans don't know how we are perceived internationally. I'm not sure you grasp just how large the US is, how many demographics exist within it, how many political viewpoints exist. For example you might read on Wikipedia that 75% of the population is Christian: but does that really tell you anything? Does it tell you who among them is the psycho-crusader type and who are the Joe Soaps? It really doesn't. You're gravely mistaken to take a small sample of American culture like FOX of all things and use the Clone Brush to paint the whole country with it.
Hi.

Wasn't my intention to be gravely mistaken, I used Fox news as an example of the sensationalist news coverage which is present in the world, in this case being in America. While I do appreciate that America is a massive place, you're likely right in saying that I'm not appreciating just how big a place it really is. It seems lately that Americans are waking up to the world, people like Ron Paul appear to be finally getting a chance to be heard, in a scenario where there's no instant crisis (bar the whole Arizona immigration law whirlwind, will be interesting to see if Los Zetas carry out their threats).

Anyway, I think as many other posters in this thread have pointed out, most people here are fond of American people, but perhaps not quite so fond of the nation's recent foreign policy.

Jeboa Safari

I find it hard to understand the anti-americanism on boards in general, theres countries that do or have done worse than the US but you never hear anything about that

skelliser

Cmdr Keen wrote: »

Yes we know that, thank you very much However they were ex-pat Americans!

Do you even know what ex-pat means?

they were german nazi expats! although they werent quite expats as they were given two options come to america and show us how to build rockets or face the wrath of the russians.

You do realise that america is now fighting the same guys they trained/funded to fight the russians in afghanistan during the 80's!

You do realise one of these individuals was Bin Laden!

You do realise that America were pals and supplied weapons to Saddam to fight the Iranians!

You do realise that America helped over throw a democratically elected gov. in Iran because they threatened to nationalise their oil fields, Inserting the Shah, a dictator, which indirectly lead to the islamic revolution!

You see, decades of meddling in other countries business has lead to a somewhat frosty feeling towards America, its not surprising really.
All you need to do is read books!

Overheal

skelliser wrote: »

You do realise that America helped over throw a democratically elected gov. in Iran because they threatened to nationalise their oil fields, Inserting the Shah, a dictator, which indirectly lead to the islamic revolution!

It was Churchill; at the time Iran was England's little pet oil field, not the United States. Though he did enlist the help of the United States, its inaccurate to exclude Britain as the origin of that regime change. And they didnt threaten to nationalize, they infact did Nationalize Britain's oil operations in Iran. As for the US motives in changing their political stance with Iran from friendly to hostile, its the source of still-speculation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

skelliser

Overheal wrote: »

It was Churchill; at the time Iran was England's little pet oil field, not the United States. Though he did enlist the help of the United States, its inaccurate to exclude Britain as the origin of that regime change. And they didnt threaten to nationalize, they infact did Nationalize Britain's oil operations in Iran. As for the US motives in changing their political stance with Iran from friendly to hostile, its the source of still-speculation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

Yes, i was wrong to not include Britains involvement. I do believe tho the CIA where instrumental in inserting the shah.
Also once he was in the Americans had direct access to the oil fields.

skelliser

It can be agrued that american sole involement in the middle east is directly proportional to the rise in fundamentalist islamic rhetoric and violence over the last 40 years.

Capt'n Midnight

skelliser wrote: »

It can be agrued that american sole involement in the middle east is directly proportional to the rise in fundamentalist islamic rhetoric and violence over the last 40 years.

No need to argue
the neo-conservatives / CIA funded and trained the fundamentalists in their war with Russia in Afganistan

Dudess

The mice thing Nodin referred to was a form of sexual torture under Pinochet's regime all right - seems like a ****ed up Bret Easton Ellis type scenario but unfortunately it happened, according to various testimonies...

I think there are great things about America and great things to come out of there - it is a country with a hugely rich culture, and bound to be so considering the size of it, and I hate all the "Americans are dumb" crap, apart from when it's obviously tongue in cheek, but its government and military have been responsible for some pretty unforgivable stuff, including Vietnam, the backing of the Allende toppling in Chile, the Sandinistas toppling in Nicaragua, among others...

Cunny-Funt

desertcircus wrote: »

Assisting in the overthrow of Salvador Allende might do it. Refusing to recognise the Heng Samrin regime in Cambodia in favour of Pol Pot's Khmer Rouge might do it. Bombing the al-Shifa pharmaceutical factory in the Sudan might do it. The My Lai massacre might do it. The protecting of Noriega's cocaine trade in order to funnel arms to the Iranians might do it. The near-bottomless arrogance of assuming that US foreign policy is beneficial and good while not bothering to learn the first thing about what's being done might do it.

Just a wild guess.

Saved me writing a big long angry post filled with youtube videos, cheers. :pac:

padz

being anti american is a very american idea dont ya know, freedom of speech and all that, its patriotic to many americans to have a go at their government

Terry

Overheal wrote: »

It was Churchill; at the time Iran was England's little pet oil field, not the United States. Though he did enlist the help of the United States, its inaccurate to exclude Britain as the origin of that regime change. And they didnt threaten to nationalize, they infact did Nationalize Britain's oil operations in Iran. As for the US motives in changing their political stance with Iran from friendly to hostile, its the source of still-speculation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9tat

Damn it, Overheal. You've been here long enough to know that you're not supposed to blame the British for anything. They civilised Ireland, don't you know?

Wibbs

Confab wrote: »

The most powerful nation in the world is China, no question. Americans were the second nation in space by a significant margin. What military hardware do the Americans have that China doesn't have?

Let's be blunt here. Post-war US has one solitary shining achievement: putting men on the moon. Impressive, but not something to rest their laurels on. It's the equivalent of England winning the '66 World Cup. The US's moment has been and gone.

I would seriously disagree with that. China has current economic power, but it remains to be seen how powerful they become. The Americans were certainly in second place in space at the start when Kennedy announced going to the moon. Hell they hadn't even got a man into orbit at that stage. Within 7 years they put men on the moon and had marched ahead of the USSR pretty much across the board. Technologically they were and are ahead. A helluva lot of the knowledge that we have of the universe is down to their space programmes. Hubble anyone? Post war? They turned from a country utterly on its knees in the 30's, a country that barely had an air force into a production powerhouse. Russia did similar but went more for quantity, not quality, the yanks did both. Their standard of living and education was way ahead of pretty much every nation on earth in the post war years. I would say the first men on the moon was the crowning achievement of that period and the last Amercian on the moon, was the end point.

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

How The Irish Saved Civilization: The Untold Story of Ireland's Heroic Role from the Fall of Rome to the Rise of Medieval Europe is a non-fiction historical book written by Thomas Cahill.

Here is the funny picture
http://static.funnyjunk.com/pictures/christian_dark_ages0.jpg

but the reality is that very little technical knowledge was lost thanks to the the Irish. Instead of having to reinvent the wheel the "Dark ages" produced things the Romans never had

The Heavy Plough
Tidal Mills
Hour Glass
Blast furnace
Glasses
Clocks
Spinning wheel
Quarantine as a means to prevent disease
Printing

I agree the dark ages wasn't even close to being as dark as people make out. I further agree that the Irish aren't given enough credit for keeping the flame alive in the period after the fall of rome. We don't even give ourselves enough credit or are well informed on this period of history. "Land of saints and scholars" just about covers it, but people dont get the level of impact. That said yer mans book kinda stretches the point in a few places and doesnt explore other areas like the north African contact nearly so much. He also plays down the fact that there were other isolated libraries and scholarship and inventiveness in the rest of Europe. Where the innovations you mention came from. He seems to concentrate on Rome, which was pretty fooked by that stage of the game. A good book is to be written on the subject, but that one while interesting isnt it IMHO.

The anti American stuff, is down to all sorts of things. Yes they have played fast and loose in world politics and no mistake, but so do others. The USSR were a charm for it and worse in so so many respects. We used to think that too. The anti american stuff is much worse now than I recall as a kid. It's gotten worse since 911. I think a lot of it over the years was down to the fact they were/are the biggest show on earth. Every superpower in history has gotten that. People can be funny. Stalin killed more of his own than Hitler, yet we have significantly more movies and books common knowledge about the latters crimes against humanity. I mean China is mentioned with admiration by a good few, yet their human rights abuses and form of government is well dodgy by comparison to the US. If China does become the dominant superpower, I think many will be hankering after the time when America was.

sensibleken

What about all the good we did for them? We gave them JFK....and they shot him

sensibleken

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

How The Irish Saved Civilization: The Untold Story of Ireland's Heroic Role from the Fall of Rome to the Rise of Medieval Europe is a non-fiction historical book written by Thomas Cahill.

Here is the funny picture
http://static.funnyjunk.com/pictures/christian_dark_ages0.jpg

but the reality is that very little technical knowledge was lost thanks to the the Irish. Instead of having to reinvent the wheel the "Dark ages" produced things the Romans never had

The Heavy Plough
Tidal Mills
Hour Glass
Blast furnace
Glasses
Clocks
Spinning wheel
Quarantine as a means to prevent disease
Printing

I really didn't think much of that book. The vast majority is talking about the saints, and presenting their haegiography as fact.

That being said the premise that we kicked ass on the knowledge front during the 'dark ages' is 100% correct.

If it wasnt for us and the arabs, europe and america would be two giant junior infants classes.

Wibbs

sensibleken wrote: »

If it wasnt for us and the arabs, europe and america would be two giant junior infants classes.

And the French and the Byzantines. Its way more complex than that book makes out. But it was a good attempt to examine an area of history that has been ignored in the wider world. Though I met a Spanish professor of English once who after a few ales thanked me and mine

for keeping that flame alive.

Saruman

Irish people don't just make fun of Americans OP, we make fun of everyone and that includes ourselves. It is just our way and that in itself is a stereotype of Irish people just like the view of Irish people in the US is of short hairy people who talk like the Lucky Charms guy and chase pots of gold at the end of rainbows. Oh and we are a nation of drunks.
I know for a fact that is what a lot of Americans view Irish people as behaving.

However... that is only what a lot of Americans I have met have thought but a lot might be only a dozen or so in reality. Considering the enormous size of the US, the massive population, different cultures and sub cultures etc that exist in the US.... I know that I can't lump all Americans in to the one stereotype.

For all the Americans that come over here and provide the stereotypical American tourist, the fact is the majority of its citizens do not even have passports and will never leave the country so we do not get an all round view of Americans.

I know Americans from all over the US so I have an even view of what Americans are really like. Yes there are idiots that make you question their right to existence, But there are idiots in every country.

The point I am making OP is that even I make fun of Americans. Even though I know Americans from all over the US and am married to one. In the same way I make fun of Irish people, of which I am one.

So the point is, don't take things so seriously... actually that's another American stereotype. Not understanding sarcasm and can't take a joke

Relax and have a beer, you guys make some cracking beers over there so go have a bottle of Speakeasy Big Daddy and it will all be ok.

sensibleken

Wibbs wrote: »

And the French and the Byzantines. Its way more complex than that book makes out.

yes those guys too. its certainly an under researched and published subject. but the book not only simplifies it (yeah columbanus founded bobbio but he didnt build it single handedly) but also does not stay on-topic (talks too much about the life of the saints). I dont know why its referenced so often as i sis not find it particularly enlightening.

anyway, back on topic....fúck you yankee-land! say thank you for us sending you such memorable characters as the Molly Maguires