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College Chaplain

Mickeroo

Yesterday I received an e-mail from the president of the student union in my college going on about how they've been fighting all year long to have a permanent Chaplain re-instated in the college, stressing things like how important spiritual guidance in college is and all that. So the Chaplain has been re-instated. It's all good and well, but the college is an IT, I would expect somewhere like Maynooth to have chaplain and that, but it just strikes me as odd that an institute of technology should have a chaplain in this day and age?? Is this a common thing? If I'm struggling with my studies or personal issues I'll go talk to the college councillor not a priest.

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antiskeptic

Mickeroo wrote: »

Yesterday I received an e-mail from the president of the student union in my college going on about how they've been fighting all year long to have a permanent Chaplain re-instated in the college, stressing things like how important spiritual guidance in college is and all that. So the Chaplain has been re-instated. It's all good and well, but the college is an IT, I would expect somewhere like Maynooth to have chaplain and that, but it just strikes me as odd that an institute of technology should have a chaplain in this day and age?? Is this a common thing? If I'm struggling with my studies or personal issues I'll go talk to the college councillor not a priest.

That's what you, a person who doesn't consider that there's a spiritual dimension to themselves, would do. What about other people who are unlike you in that regard?

I don't see what an 'institute of technology' has to do with it - unless you're suggesting that technically minded people aren't spiritual. In which case I'd point you to me - a mechanical engineer by trade - and millons similar to me.

GLaDOS

Is it specifically Christian or a more general, multi denominational thing? If it's the latter it wouldn't bother me certainly, that's how it's done in DCU.

Mickeroo

Well the college is multi-denominational. I was just wondering was it a common thing in colleges.

Fair point antiskeptic

me_right_one

Yea its usual. The chaplain is much more than a priest, and it doesn't have to be somebody that overtly religious either. You said you would turn to the college councillor, well a Chaplain kindov is a college councillor. What if someone was bullying you, or robbing your stuff, and the admin wouldnt listen? At least have someone to spill your emotional guts to in confidentiality with a Chaplain

Mickeroo

me_right_one wrote: »

Yea its usual. The chaplain is much more than a priest, and it doesn't have to be somebody that overtly religious either. You said you would turn to the college councillor, well a Chaplain kindov is a college councillor. What if someone was bullying you, or robbing your stuff, and the admin wouldnt listen? At least have someone to spill your emotional guts to in confidentiality with a Chaplain

Our Chaplain is a priest, and we have a councillr aswell who's job it is to help students with their problems.

Zillah

My first thought is to have a letter published in the college paper/newsletter demanding that we have a Rabbi, Pastafarian, Scientologist and an Imam. After all, we wouldn't want to favour Christians just because they're the majority now would we?

Sad to see really. To think, with a bit of effort they could use that money to have a real counsellor, with qualifications and everything. Ideally one that didn't choose to dedicate their life to a magic man in the sky. Priests giving life advice always struck me as more than a little ironic, considering that their entire lifestyle is about escapism.

Mandatory kiddie-fiddling joke: They won't want to work in third level anyway.

Zillah

antiskeptic wrote: »

That's what you, a person who doesn't consider that there's a spiritual dimension to themselves, would do. What about other people who are unlike you in that regard?

They can go to their priest, Rabbi or pot-smoking-guru at home if they like. Church-State separation demands we not hire a priest with public funding. What makes all you religious people feel so bloody entitled I'll never know.

Daftendirekt

antiskeptic wrote: »

That's what you, a person who doesn't consider that there's a spiritual dimension to themselves, would do. What about other people who are unlike you in that regard?

I don't see what an 'institute of technology' has to do with it - unless you're suggesting that technically minded people aren't spiritual. In which case I'd point you to me - a mechanical engineer by trade - and millons similar to me.

In that case, perhaps our ITs should also offer Reiki healing and chakra cleansing services. Maybe throw in some past life regression, too.

Mickeroo

Zillah wrote: »

My first thought is to have a letter published in the college paper/newsletter demanding that we have a Rabbi, Pastafarian, Scientologist and an Imam. After all, we wouldn't want to favour Christians just because they're the majority now would we?

Sad to see really. To think, with a bit of effort they could use that money to have a real counsellor, with qualifications and everything. Ideally one that didn't choose to dedicate their life to a magic man in the sky. Priests giving life advice always struck me as more than a little ironic, considering that their entire lifestyle is about escapism.

Mandatory kiddie-fiddling joke: They won't want to work in third level anyway.

There is a fully qualified counsellor aswell, thats why i think the Chaplain is a little superfluous(sp?). Fair point on the Rabbi and all that.

Truley

I crossed paths with the college chaplaincy many times in my college years for various reasons. First of all the chaplain is not necessarily a priest, and they are non-denominational. You can have Islamic, Jewish, Scientology chaplains if you wish. Though I never used them for councelling services it seems to me the work they do is beneficial to alot of students, and the demand for them is certainly there. It's just a different type of student service on top of the many others, counselling, STI clinic, events society etc The college also had lots of college sponsored religious societies, Islamic, Christian, Buddist. So it's not like the college was promoting/pushing a single religon.

So what if a student prefers to speak to a religious advisor instead of the usual counsellor. What ever keeps you sane as the saying goes. I would never begrudge my fellow students a helpful and unharmful service just because I don't share their same belief system.

magicbastarder

Truley wrote: »

So what if a student prefers to speak to a religious advisor instead of the usual counsellor. What ever keeps you sane as the saying goes. I would never begrudge my fellow students a helpful and unharmful service just because I don't share their same belief system.

+1
the benefit of the chaplain is what the students get out of it; if (s)he provides a service the students welcome, well and good. if, however, it's just there to tick a box, or is not used, my concerns would be based more on the waste of budget than anything else.

panda100

This is something that really irked me while in UCD.
I think the use of chaplains to guide students in university is completely inappropriate and quite damaging.

In UCD there was two student advisors assigned to each school. One was always a chaplain. In the medical school where I was there was thousands of students from all nationalities and backgrounds.
A lot of students would see these advisors If they had failed an exam or needed help with an academic issue. I went to see the chaplain after I failed one of my first exam. After telling him about what a good little Christian I was and my trips to Lourdes,he spoke to the dean on my behalf about my exam result and I was given a third chance to sit the exam. Im sure this kinda stuff is still going on.

I would rather see a full time psychiatrist or more counsellers in UCD than pay these chaplains wages. Especially considering how underfunded and understaffed the mental health services was.

I have always been very vocal about my opposition to the 'Please Talk' campaign in UCD which has now gone nationwide to all the uni's, with massive funding from the government. This fruitless campaign was set up by a chaplain in UCD. While Im sure his motives were sincere he is not a trained professional and isn't equipped to roll out campaigns that deals with serious depression and suicide problems in colleges throughout Ireland.

Another thing that made me very uneasy was the arts chaplains dominate role in the UCD fashion show. Auditions were held every year where the ugly girls were turfed out early on. Every year there was an underwear section where 18 year old girls would be walking the runway in suspenders, of which inevitably there would be a photo of The Sun the next day.

All in all my experiences of chaplains in UCD was not good at all.

topper75

Mickeroo wrote: »

Is this a common thing?

It is a common thing. UL has a CofI guy and an RC guy. NUIG has one.

Mickeroo wrote: »

If I'm struggling with my studies or personal issues I'll go talk to the college councillor not a priest.

So a non-issue then? I'm wondering why you posted now.

panda100 wrote: »

dominate role in the UCD fashion show. ..Every year there was an underwear section where 18 year old girls would be walking the runway in suspenders

Why isn't this position openly advertised?:mad:

Seriously, it doesn't affect non-religious students and you can't expect everyone to benefit from everything the college provides. I wouldn't borrow books from the engineering section of the library, but I wouldn't call to have funding withdrawn at the same time.

This smacks of atheist militancy and is merely the other side of the religious zealot coin.

Kazuma

It's the bloody chaiplancy newsletters that we get subjected to in NUIM that really piss me off, I've no problem with the chaiplancy being there, but I don't appreciate mass mailing religious mumbo jumbo to everyone in the college.

bnt

In three years at UCD I think I saw the RC chaplain twice, both speaking at orientation days. If I ever have dealings with him, I think I'll be OK, since I'd know straight away if he was trying anything funny. If he helps people regardless of their religion or lack thereof, I have no problem with that.

I didn't know much about UCD's history before I started, such as its origins as the "Catholic University of Ireland". It might have made me question going there, but I saw little to concern me other than too many references to Cardinal Newman, the first Rector, who may soon be Canonized by His Popeness. You wouldn't know it by walking around Belfield which is, these days, better known as the Chlamydia Capital of Ireland.

rainbow kirby

panda100 wrote: »

I would rather see a full time psychiatrist or more counsellers in UCD than pay these chaplains wages. Especially considering how underfunded and understaffed the mental health services was.

+1

Mental health services are desperately underfunded (in all colleges, not just UCD), surely the money used to pay chaplains would be a lot better spent on proper mental health professionals.

Truley

rainbow kirby wrote: »

+1

Mental health services are desperately underfunded (in all colleges, not just UCD), surely the money used to pay chaplains would be a lot better spent on proper mental health professionals.

People need chaplains and people need counsellors. It's not fair to drop one in favour for the other just because you don't think their services are valid. Alot of people have and still do receive alot of help from the chaplaincy (myself included,) so clearly the resources are not going to waste. Alot of people would argue that we shouldn't have to fund other students counselling sessions or STI exams either.

nozzferrahhtoo

I would be interesting to know which IT this is and who the re-instatement went though.... though I understand completely if you want to tell me this by PM

Mickeroo

PM sent

strobe

Truley wrote: »

People need chaplains and people need counsellors. It's not fair to drop one in favour for the other just because you don't think their services are valid. Alot of people have and still do receive alot of help from the chaplaincy (myself included,) so clearly the resources are not going to waste. Alot of people would argue that we shouldn't have to fund other students counselling sessions or STI exams either.

STI's are real........

Truley

strobe wrote: »

STI's are real........

Did I say otherwise? ....

Ickle Magoo

Truley wrote: »

People need chaplains and people need counsellors. It's not fair to drop one in favour for the other just because you don't think their services are valid. Alot of people have and still do receive alot of help from the chaplaincy (myself included,) so clearly the resources are not going to waste. Alot of people would argue that we shouldn't have to fund other students counselling sessions or STI exams either.

But surely a wee wander around any area will reveal a wealth of religious or spiritual guidance to be had in local churches, paying for the services of a counsellor is quite often just not possible for students. I think the funds would be far better spent paying for support that is not otherwise available to many students rather than just adding to the multitude of religious leaders in the area.

Truley

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

But surely a wee wander around any area will reveal a wealth of religious or spiritual guidance to be had in local churches, paying for the services of a counsellor is quite often just not possible for students. I think the funds would be far better spent paying for support that is not otherwise available to many students rather than just adding to the multitude of religious leaders in the area.

Well I can't speak for all colleges but I know in UCD while I was there the mental health service was an umbrella term that consisted of a liaison between a number of different bodies, the counsellors, college doctors, student advisors, welfare officers and chaplains. Before a student can avail of the college counselling services they must first be referred to it by one of the above. Alot of students, (particularly foreign or exchange students) feel more confortable liaising with a Chaplain as a first 'port of call.' Or sometimes a student doesn't need to see the college psychiatrist at all and talking to the Chaplain is enough.

On two seperate occasions a classmate of mine died and both times the Chaplaincy liaised with the students. This included the organisation of memorial services and booklets, liaising with the necessary religous leader and providing their room for hosting the afters of the funeral. As well as that they organised informal group and individual counselling sessions with the option of referral to the college psychologist if people felt they needed it.

When my own mother was dying the first thing I did was contact my chaplain, firstly because from previous contact I knew and liked the guy, secondly because I didn't need a psychologist, or an academic advisor, or a nurse, I needed an all encompassing supporter that would vouch for me in all these areas while I sorted my sh*t out, as well as provide emotional support and guidance. He knew I was an athiest and it wasn't an issue, they help all students who look for it. To this day I am incredibly thankful for the support I got from my college chaplaincy, and the support I know they gave my peers and classmates.

As well as that they offer alot of other practical services such as student specific volunteer programmes, religious work abroad programmes, student pilgrimmages, student societies etc. Since they are services aimed at and required by students it makes sense to have them as part of the university/college no? And yes maybe they can get alot of the services outside of the campus but you can say the same about most of the services provided by a University.

Ickle Magoo

I appreciate chaplains will of course offer services for those that are religious to avail of and can help with bereavement and funerals - that's their job but surely they don't have to be a campus representative for all other issues to do that? Nor to offer various religiously themed programmes nor charity trips abroad? I still think a college or university should provide support for all it's students, not just a religiously affiliated support for certain students and others can pop along to them as need be, if they don't mind the affiliation and if they are lucky enough that their chaplain is going to be as open minded as yours was - there are at least as many stories about students who weren't and surely that's not a risk worth taking.

My university had both representatives for various religions and a generic counselling service which was able to refer students to various other bodies if needs be which I think is a great system that caters for pretty much everyone, however, if the issue is funding a chaplain or someone who will offer support to all students without any accompanying assumptions of religious affiliation or moral judgement, I think the latter would be a superior system. Charging all students to pay for the services of someone that has a vested interest in a particular religion and percentage of the student body when such people are common place in every town doesn't strike me as a particularly wise way to spend limited funds.

Ickle Magoo

Linkee no workee - and I'm not sure I understand your point anyway...

axer

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Linkee no workee - and I'm not sure I understand your point anyway...

I think the point was click on the link for facebook layouts.

Handsome Bob

panda100 wrote: »

A lot of students would see these advisors If they had failed an exam or needed help with an academic issue. I went to see the chaplain after I failed one of my first exam. After telling him about what a good little Christian I was and my trips to Lourdes,he spoke to the dean on my behalf about my exam result and I was given a third chance to sit the exam. Im sure this kinda stuff is still going on.

Funny how you were willing to bend your own principles for your own needs, but now that you've gotten what you wanted you're happy to stick the boot in. If you felt that strongly about it you shouldn't have put on a facade.

I would rather see a full time psychiatrist or more counsellers in UCD than pay these chaplains wages. Especially considering how underfunded and understaffed the mental health services was.

I wouldn't say a chaplain earns any where near what a full time fully qualified psychiatrist would. So what do you do, get rid of all the chaplains and replace them with 1 or 2 psychiatrists? How stretched would those psychiatrists be in regards to the sheer amount of workload?

I have always been very vocal about my opposition to the 'Please Talk' campaign in UCD which has now gone nationwide to all the uni's, with massive funding from the government. This fruitless campaign was set up by a chaplain in UCD. While Im sure his motives were sincere he is not a trained professional and isn't equipped to roll out campaigns that deals with serious depression and suicide problems in colleges throughout Ireland.

What makes you think that proper research wasn't put into the campaign just because the founder is a chaplain?

Another thing that made me very uneasy was the arts chaplains dominate role in the UCD fashion show. Auditions were held every year where the ugly girls were turfed out early on. Every year there was an underwear section where 18 year old girls would be walking the runway in suspenders, of which inevitably there would be a photo of The Sun the next day.

You have to help me out here, 4 years in UCD and I've never heard of this. What exact role does the Arts chaplain play in these preceedings? Is he the lead judge, turning away the unattractive women?

ColmDawson

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Funny how you were willing to bend your own principles for your own needs, but now that you've gotten what you wanted you're happy to stick the boot in. If you felt that strongly about it you shouldn't have put on a facade.

I may be wrong, but I gathered from a previous post that she used to be a Christian.

Truley

I don't understand why people would call for the abolishment of chaplaincy with the idea that it would result in better resources for counselling/ mental health in Universities.

a) Chaplaincy is not a substitute for mental health services, they're not really the same thing. People use it for its own unique service.

b) If it was to be abolished you would be taking away a service affecting hundreds even thousands of students. Students who would then have to seek out alternatives such as welfare officers and counselliors. Consequently putting more strain on these already strained services when they would have been happier dealing with a chaplain.

c) Thirdly the very existance of the chaplaincy is not siphoning off funds from the conventional mental health service, it compliments it. It is an alternative port of call for students to seek guidance and advice, students that may not necessarily need to see a conventional counsellor/psychologist. If you wanted to reduce unnecessary expenditure to raise funds for welfare services, there are better places to start. How about the 1,000s of euro spent on ents funding, class rep weekends, posters, stickers,rag week, drinks promotions etc

Fine you may not agree with the religious aspect of it. But ask yourself whether calling for its abolishment is actually about the best interests of the College and its students, or is it more about making a political point? I think taking away a service because you don't agree with the religion is imposing your own views on other people, which is ironically what most athiests complain about religions doing.

ChocolateSauce