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RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

slegs

RTE CFO speaking at Seanad committee announces that RTE will launch a Saorsat service with spot beam on Ireland of FTA PSB channels from Q2 2011. Presume Astra 28.2 but he didnt say.

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endakenny

When Saorsat becomes operational, will it be possible to get the Irish terrestrial channels on Sky via "Other Channels"?

tlaavtech

RogerThis wrote: »

When SaorSat is in full operation, will RTE still pay to be on the Sky system?

It wouldn't make sense for €15 million of license payers to be going direct to Sky, when RTE have a viable alternative. Sky might carry then for free to keep the Irish customers.

Think it might put RTE in a better position to strike a more favourable deal with Sky - RTE won't be so desperate.

[Deleted User]

endakenny wrote: »

When Saorsat becomes operational, will it be possible to get the Irish terrestrial channels on Sky via "Other Channels"?

SaorSat will probably be on a different satillite ( 9e ) so no unfortunatly since sky operate on astra 28.2e and all digiboxes are locked onto that satillite

Tony

RogerThis wrote: »

It wouldn't make sense for €15 million of license payers to be going direct to Sky,

What makes you think that €15m of license payer money is going to sky?

Manc-Red

I understand why RTE won't go the FTV Card route like ITV have done in the past & C4 HD is at the moment...

But, This route their talking of going, with it being possibly on 13e or whatever other satellite.... - Is it going to save any money than say, stay on 28e and order a bulk-load of NDS cards for FTV Irish viewing thats encrypted in Videoguard??

I think this is pie in the Sky - Madness.

I'm extremely surprised.

Apogee

This is the doc RTÉ submitted to the Committee yesterday - it's basically a duplicate of what Conor Hayes said.

No extra info on the Ka-sat proposal unfortunately - very skimpy.

Apogee

endakenny wrote: »

When Saorsat becomes operational, will it be possible to get the Irish terrestrial channels on Sky via "Other Channels"?

Theoretically, yes, but only with a share of technical jiggery pokery, and it wouldn't be the most user-friendly solution.

endakenny

tlaavtech wrote: »

Think it might put RTE in a better position to strike a more favourable deal with Sky - RTE won't be so desperate.

Who is still going to pay Sky or UPC to watch RTÉ when Saorsat becomes operational?

[Deleted User]

Apogee wrote: »

Theoretically, yes, but only with a share of technical jiggery pokery, and it wouldn't be the most user-friendly solution.

Its dependent - i seriously doubt rte will be able to go FTA on 28.2e (right restrictions for programming due to the wide beam on astra2 and also the carriage contract currently in place with sky) so it looks like it will be on the Ka Sat which means teh add channels option isnt one as the lads pointed out so we have to wait and see....:D

It could happen that sky and rte keep thier services agrement in place so no FTA on 28.2 east and also have a Ka Sat ( 9 east ) FTA eire only beam for anyone not willing to use sky....

Mr McBoatface

Manc-Red wrote: »

I understand why RTE won't go the FTV Card route like ITV have done in the past & C4 HD is at the moment...

But, This route their talking of going, with it being possibly on 13e or whatever other satellite.... - Is it going to save any money than say, stay on 28e and order a bulk-load of NDS cards for FTV Irish viewing thats encrypted in Videoguard??

I think this is pie in the Sky - Madness.

I'm extremely surprised.

Madness is your opinion, It's not madness in mine, I actually think if it's completed it would have made the long delay in DTT role-out worth it.

This proposed service is intended as a backup for DTT but primiarly it's intended to reach area where DTT can't reach or it's not economical viable. It's a Irish service for Ireland and it will offer more content from Irish broadcastors to Irish viewer than Sky currently can.

RTE being on Sky has benefited Sky greatly as much if not more than RTE got from the deal. It could be argued that without RTE Sky would not have been as successful in Ireland. Even if a FTV card from sky is made available the extra channels and the later HD service will not be on SKY, this service is intended to mirror DTT so FTV is a non-runner.

I take the pi** out of RTE as much as anybody but I think this is a great move. I hope it work's out but time will tell.

RogerThis

watty wrote: »

If RTE was paying for a copy of Saorview on Sky that would be about
€1.1M for EPGs excluding Radio (9 placements)
€9M for FTV /Encryption (assuming 1/20th of charges to BBC)
€3M to €8M for Transponder ( 28.2 is one of most expensive)
Total RTE Cost about €12M a year, likely much more, perhaps €21M

Cost of cards to Consumers 30 x 100,000 = €3M

That's €12M to €20M a year leaving the state to Sky pockets. Only a 1/3rd is real costs, which is still €4M to €7M.

Tony, from the quote from watty.

Do you know what RTE are paying at the moment to be on Sky?

slegs

RTE pay nothing to be on Sky. Thats not going to change.

Apogee

warlikedave wrote: »

Its dependent - i seriously doubt rte will be able to go FTA on 28.2e (right restrictions for programming due to the wide beam on astra2 and also the carriage contract currently in place with sky) so it looks like it will be on the Ka Sat which means teh add channels option isnt one as the lads pointed out so we have to wait and see....:D

It could happen that sky and rte keep thier services agrement in place so no FTA on 28.2 east and also have a Ka Sat ( 9 east ) FTA eire only beam for anyone not willing to use sky....

Ahhh, but I said nothing about them going FTA on 28e.

The 'jiggery pokery' I refer to, is that you'd use a 2x LNBF setup, one aimed at 28E for the Sky channels and the other aimed at 9E for the Irish channels. No diseqc in a Sky box, so you'd instead have to use some other sort of switch (e.g. manual or RF-controlled) which would swap the incoming feed from 28E to 9E, allowing you to tune in the RTE channels on a SkyHD box via other channels (assuming the symbol rate was compatible).

As I said, not user-friendly, but still possible. A separate FTA box would be much easier though.

slegs

warlikedave wrote: »

I
It could happen that sky and rte keep thier services agrement in place so no FTA on 28.2 east and also have a Ka Sat ( 9 east ) FTA eire only beam for anyone not willing to use sky....

The irish channels on Sky are fully paid for by Sky.

If RTE want to broadcast free channels from Astra 28.2 (in FTV) then they will need to pay for everything themselves and these channels will be separate from the Sky service (other channels). If the want to be on the EPG with the fre channels then they have to pay Sky lots of money to do so. RTE FTV on Astra and/or Sky is just not viable. It is too expenisve as Watty outlined.

RTE have played a masterstroke here. They have a low cost viable FTA soultion for terrestrial infill and they may force Sky to move on an FTV solution without RTE having to fund it.

Even if Sky dont move we have digitial FTA Irish channels on DTT and sat and we are not dependent on any commercial organisation to provide it. A neat solution will be found for the Ka reception (like Watty has been pointing out with Squarial type dishes)

watty

Even if Sky did do FTV is would only be 5 channels and no HD.

Not the full SaorTV lineup which will expand over next two years. Nor the extra radio channels.

STB

watty wrote: »

Even if Sky did do FTV is would only be 5 channels and no HD.

Not the full SaorTV lineup which will expand over next two years. Nor the extra radio channels.

Aye. Who is to say that there isnt a second mux in the mix.

Satellite Question

Question for Tony/Satellite installers.

How easy is to have a 28.2E and 9E Ku and Ka on the one bracket on the one dish.

Are you looking at a slimline3 type dish.

Tony

RogerThis wrote: »

Tony, from the quote from watty.

Do you know what RTE are paying at the moment to be on Sky?

RTE pay nothing to be on sky, I think you mis interpreted Watty's point.

Tony

Watty mentioned a torodial like a wave frontier. I'm not sure what a slinline 3 is, do you have a url by any chance?

STB wrote: »

Aye. Who is to say that there isnt a second mux in the mix.

Satellite Question

Question for Tony/Satellite installers.

How easy is to have a 28.2E and 9E Ku and Ka on the one bracket on the one dish.

Are you looking at a slimline3 type dish.

watty

STB wrote: »

How easy is to have a 28.2E and 9E Ku and Ka on the one bracket on the one dish.

.

Only currently possible on a Wavefrontier T55. Which is an expensive beast.

28.2 & 13E is about the limit and that's slightly iffy even on 80cm to 90cm dish. Ka band is nearly twice the frequency, thus a dish has nearly x4 gain. A large dish is nearly x4 harder to align than on Ku! (regular satellite).

A regular 65cm Sky dish is too big. Also some Ku mesh dishes may be too open and/or rough. Solid is preferable.

We will have an Irish Spot! In London a 43cm works for Sky and in Limerick you need 65cm in rain. Maybe slightly more in extreme West, South West, North west in heavy west coast rain.

The Ka Sat is more effective power due to spot pointed at US (a novelty, only some of the Schools Satellite Internet and RTE OB has ever had that!).

So the really cheap small 44cm metal cone with rear mounted standard fitting LNB (and secondary mini cassegrain reflector inside lid) will work. These are in a plastic box with square front and tapered rear. Only about 25 Euro. Light so if you buy a pallet from factory the shipping is a lot less than for Sky dishes.

Rear of dish unit (the LNB has been "hacked" for mysterious non-satellite application)
(The other half of pole mount missing) Low weight and low wind load means it can go on a tv bracket mount.

Front (Digiweb Metro outdoor radio beside it)

This doesn't look like a dish. So will usually "beat" the one dish rule

Elevation is 29 degrees for kasat @ 9E compared to 22.5 Degrees for Sky.
Put Diseqc switch at existing dish and run coax to where ever you put this 45cm square plastic box (inner 44cm dish in box).

STB

This is all theorectical of course... but along the line of the Direct TV idea for combining KU and Ka

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp?mc=02&p=AU9-SL3-SWM&d=DIRECTV-AU9SL3SWM-Three-LNB-KaKu-Slim-Line-Dish-Antenna-SL3-LNB-Combo-%28AU9SL3SWM%29&c=DIRECTV%20Dishes&sku=

Obviously that dish is for specific Sats but the idea of combining would be similar ?

watty

Direct TV Ku and Ka are closer, (like 13E Ka and 9E combo I posted). Also Direc TV Ka is circular polarised.

The only single dish option for 9E and 28E is T55 wavefrontier and it's big, ugly, heavy, awkward to align on Kasat and expensive.

I'd go for separate dishes. You can put the 45cm square box above the Sky Dish as it has no arm and 6.5 degree higher elevation if you MUST do one pole. Or if a retro fit, put the square box for kasat some other location.

I'll have a spare square boxed dish, I'll take some photos later of how LNB and bracket works. The earlier photos are obviously not a satellite application (though a real sat dish)

Similar but more expensive model http://www.hm-sat-shop.de/antennen-diverse/megasat-sd-flat-440-flachantenne.html
Select antennen in menu then diverse and scroll down
Megasat / ÖSD Flat 440

The really flat ones on that site are Ku only using built-in LNB and labyrinth mico horns and waveguide combiners so are useless for Ka band (no dish inside)

It's not offset, so it really would be at 29 degree elevation like that, approx. No need to dis-assemble case, the LNB is held by a plastic bracket and lock screw at rear.

If you order direct from Turkish factory you can get without the normally included Ku LNB. They can probably source suitable Ka LNB. Some LNB are too short for horn to be at focus.

WARNING Will Robinson!
These 44cm dish in a plastic box are no good in Ireland for Sky when it rains. Maybe OK in Wexford. Definitely OK in South East of England. But should be fine for Kasat if we can find the correct LNB. No need to worry and test till hopefully successful Kasat commissioning a few weeks or month after launch (hopefully OK too)

Sponge Bob

Is Ka Sat supposed to deliver a higher power spot beam over Ireland Watty , out of interest. Your dish looks scarily small by our normal standards.

I take your point on smaller satellite shadow areas (ie north side of mountains in the west) because of better elevation in the sky.

scruffy66

Has anybody wondered how RTE happened to fall on this sat solution for the 3% of the country that needed covering post analogue switch off.

The satellite is launching this year so how long has this possibility been around
and what was RTE intentions for the 3% of the country post analogue switch anyway ,free SKY maybe.

Did this possibility ever come up in negotiations between RTE and one vision or boxer.

If this is the solution for the 3% ,How is it going to look for RTE if more people around the country take up this SAT solution as a way to get a full FTA package ,through the one remote control

If in the next 3 years 30% of the population switch to this free sat service which RTE will have to advertise ,nearing analogue switch off and only a small percentage go with the DTT service which only has RTE channels .

WILL RTE not look a bit stupid if this service for the 3% becomes the more DOMINANT service out of the two.

Half the country has south facing back gardens ,so in their cases how, would this one DISH rule apply , most people will go for the cheaper option .

Maybe if the FTA + boxes take off , RTE will run ADS with EAMON DUNPHY on instead of HOOK , telling us all how much he LOVE'S technology , PAUSE REWIND ETC.

Macy0161

scruffy66 wrote: »

If this is the solution for the 3% ,How is it going to look for RTE if more people around the country take up this SAT solution as a way to get a full FTA package ,through the one remote control

If in the next 3 years 30% of the population switch to this free sat service which RTE will have to advertise ,nearing analogue switch off and only a small percentage go with the DTT service which only has RTE channels .

WILL RTE not look a bit stupid if this service for the 3% becomes the more DOMINANT service out of the two.

For most people DTT will just be getting a compabitible STB or TV, especially for 2nd or 3rd TV's. 2 dishes, switches etc are still likely to be the preserve of people interested in the technology rather than widespread. Also, I would suspect that eventually they'll be a DTT/Sat combo that'll do the job - there was mention last week about a FreeviewHD/ FreesatHD combo, which could well do the job.

If it becomes successful I'm not sure how RTE will look stupid. At the very least they'll be able to spin it as a positive. The satellite still has to get up - if they'd thrown all their eggs in this basket and for some reason it doesn't launch, then they'd really look stupid.

watty

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Is Ka Sat supposed to deliver a higher power spot beam over Ireland Watty , out of interest. Your dish looks scarily small by our normal standards.

I take your point on smaller satellite shadow areas (ie north side of mountains in the west) because of better elevation in the sky.

Currently the only dedicated spot for Ireland is this

It's old, doesn't do that amount of power. Used by BBC and Five for feeds to TX sites, by RTE and BBC for OB and by Schools here for Satellite Internet/"Broadband" (VSAT). It also has no space left.
http://www.lyngsat.com/intel907.html

Sky/Freesat is a constellation. It only needs a 43cm /45cm dish (one of those small boxes) in London. It's Astra 2A, 2B, 2D and Eurobird 1

Astra2A and 2B South Beam

Astra2A and 2B North Beam

Astra2D North Beam

Eurobird1 S1

Eurobird1 Fixed

These footprints don't take account that the rain fade is worse at lower elevations (the further West and North the worse). Elevation is about 22.5 in middle of Ireland.

The recommended Sky dish in SE England is 45cm and in Ireland is 65cm. But taking account of rain fade, transponder power dropping with age, you can see that in Dublin a 50cm might be fine and in Donegal and Kerry 80cm might be needed for same performance. 65cm is a compromise. Those in West, North West and South West actually get more pixellation and breakup than those in Dublin. It happens more often to as the West as nearly 6 times the rainfall.

Kasat proposed Spots

I have shown a few spots here of the EIGHTY the satellite has. It's probably going to be the biggest and most powerful satellite ever launched in europe.

For the same TX power (and newer satellites tend to be more powerful) a smaller spot is more concentrated so have more effective power.
Ka is nearly twice the frequency of Ku (Astra 2x / Eurobird 1) so a dish has nearly x4 gain. This means a 43cm dish on ka is close to same signal as 75cm to 80cm on Sky/Freesat.

But we actually have a dedicated spot

The spots that are the same colours are the same channels reused. Unlike Ku (Sky) where the constellation gives you the whole band, each Ka Spot is about 1/4 of the channels only. This also means that it's likely that distribution to multiple receivers can use a single output LNB and simply split the signal like TV (If done properly, even if all the possible transponders used, all should be same H/V and Tone On/Off). If they are using greater than 2GHz, it's possible to have a couple of different Ka LNBs for different spot groups.

It's probable in a clear sky that a 20cm to 30cm dish might work! The large (for ka Band!) size is to ensure rain fade margin.

In South East UK and in many parts of Europe Mainland the tiny lidl Camper dish works fine in rain if you are in the "hot" part of all the beams/spots you need. Up till now we have been on the edge of coverage for almost all Irish/UK services. This time we get our own spot, Unlike Sky/Freesat where the signal in West of Ireland is rubbish compared to South East England.

Ka generally uses a much smaller dish than Ku.

Also the Tooway is VSAT using DOCSIS. It has a transmitter, so for a working two way link (for Internet) VSAT always needs a larger dish than TVRO/DTH (Ordinary TV reception only). The Tooway people assured me that VSAT on Kasat only needs a 45cm dish.

The other issues are Modulation type, Transponder width, FEC and Symbol rate. These also affect dish size. DVB-s2 is more efficient than DVB-s. On Ku and VSAT that is used to get more data. On Ka the TV will likely use the modulation to ensure rain margin. The VSAT transponders are adaptive. They actually change modulation on Kasat to stop loss of signal during heavy rain and turn up the speed to near double older Ku VSAT in clear skies. Obviously TV transponder is fixed symbol rate.

I really think the "one dish" rule is not going to be an issue as the kasat dish can be in a box and will be so small and unobtrusive. They have never applied it to MMDS dishes which are bigger and uglier.

Anyhow, obviously we can test before madly installing loads of dishes. Spectrum Analyser with decoder for DVBs2 to also measure BER etc.

slicedpanman

Watty you are goldmine of information

If I've read all of the above correctly (not guaranteed

) my fears about a future possible move by Freesat onto this sat are groundless - we will still be able to pick up the frequencies from South West England and North East England (yellow and blue circles to the right of our orange circle) in this pic

It looks like if we have a bigger dish we can pick up these 2 spots as well as our own as the corresponding matching frequencies are over towards mainland Europe and will not drown us out.

Am I correct in this assumption?

watty

For Border counties the N.I./Scotland spot is easy.
For Waterford to Dundalk, the Welsh/Cornish spot is easier.
For rest of Ireland the dish size would rise rapidly. A larger dish needs to be very rigid and is very tricky to align on Ka without a spectrum Analyser.

But Freesat has a large installed base. They won't consider it as the changing of all the LNBs is too expensive. The four UK spots will be mostly rural Internet, esp. now that the Con-LibDems have shelved the Rural universal 2Mbps Broadband.

Tooway on kasat is likely to offer same or higher cap, more consistent 3Mbps or more than Mobile and possibly less than €20 month. But 790ms minimum ping. Installers will need good test gear.

rlogue

I live in SE England and will not get a signal at all on the basis of the French spot beam wiping out the Irish spot beam signal.

I'm sure the announcement of Saorsat will have galvanised the likes of Real Digital etc into action - the key selling point will have to be the ability to get Irish TV and UK TV from the one dish.

rlogue

I think it's right and proper that RTÉ meet the requirements of the Broadcasting Act to provide a national FTA service but they have wilfully ignored another requirement to provide an overseas TV service.

Unless Project Canvas provides seamless integration of the RTÉ player on Freesat and Freeview boxes and the picture quality of the RTÉ player is drastically improved I still believe there's a legal obligation on RTÉ to provide an overseas TV service for us emigrants.

watty

Saorsat on kasat just about kills any chance Real Digital TV of launching in Ireland, no advantage over Freesat.

Real Digital TV can't do Irish TV in UK and certainly can't compete with Sky for payTV or Freesat in UK.

The only chance Real had of some "startup" buzz would have been an RTE FTV card scheme for Ireland on 28.2.

But RTE could not have afforded the much higher carriage costs on 28.2E for a copy of the DTT services (Sky will not allow 3rd party encryption of their Irish TV transmission, it's not RTE's and it's not all the services) even in MPEG4 on DVBs2 (which is what real was going to do to save carriage costs). Then Real would have had to pay encryption royalty and run the FTV card themseleves (A pay subscription doesn't meet PSB needs).

Real Digital TV was always a dubious proposition. Though competition can be good. The only market it had any chance was Ireland. All they can do now is sell a bundle package using a Fortec Set box with diseqc, Freesat EPG and Saorview/Saorsat EPG. Their conditional access product is dead.