RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

endakenny wrote: »

When Saorsat becomes operational, will it be possible to get the Irish terrestrial channels on Sky via "Other Channels"?

SaorSat will probably be on a different satillite ( 9e ) so no unfortunatly since sky operate on astra 28.2e and all digiboxes are locked onto that satillite

endakenny wrote: »

When Saorsat becomes operational, will it be possible to get the Irish terrestrial channels on Sky via "Other Channels"?

Theoretically, yes, but only with a share of technical jiggery pokery, and it wouldn't be the most user-friendly solution.

Apogee wrote: »

Theoretically, yes, but only with a share of technical jiggery pokery, and it wouldn't be the most user-friendly solution.

Its dependent - i seriously doubt rte will be able to go FTA on 28.2e (right restrictions for programming due to the wide beam on astra2 and also the carriage contract currently in place with sky) so it looks like it will be on the Ka Sat which means teh add channels option isnt one as the lads pointed out so we have to wait and see....:D

It could happen that sky and rte keep thier services agrement in place so no FTA on 28.2 east and also have a Ka Sat ( 9 east ) FTA eire only beam for anyone not willing to use sky....

watty wrote: »

If RTE was paying for a copy of Saorview on Sky that would be about
€1.1M for EPGs excluding Radio (9 placements)
€9M for FTV /Encryption (assuming 1/20th of charges to BBC)
€3M to €8M for Transponder ( 28.2 is one of most expensive)
Total RTE Cost about €12M a year, likely much more, perhaps €21M

Cost of cards to Consumers 30 x 100,000 = €3M

That's €12M to €20M a year leaving the state to Sky pockets. Only a 1/3rd is real costs, which is still €4M to €7M.

Tony, from the quote from watty.

Do you know what RTE are paying at the moment to be on Sky?

warlikedave wrote: »

Its dependent - i seriously doubt rte will be able to go FTA on 28.2e (right restrictions for programming due to the wide beam on astra2 and also the carriage contract currently in place with sky) so it looks like it will be on the Ka Sat which means teh add channels option isnt one as the lads pointed out so we have to wait and see....:D

It could happen that sky and rte keep thier services agrement in place so no FTA on 28.2 east and also have a Ka Sat ( 9 east ) FTA eire only beam for anyone not willing to use sky....

Ahhh, but I said nothing about them going FTA on 28e.

The 'jiggery pokery' I refer to, is that you'd use a 2x LNBF setup, one aimed at 28E for the Sky channels and the other aimed at 9E for the Irish channels. No diseqc in a Sky box, so you'd instead have to use some other sort of switch (e.g. manual or RF-controlled) which would swap the incoming feed from 28E to 9E, allowing you to tune in the RTE channels on a SkyHD box via other channels (assuming the symbol rate was compatible).

As I said, not user-friendly, but still possible. A separate FTA box would be much easier though.

Even if Sky did do FTV is would only be 5 channels and no HD.

Not the full SaorTV lineup which will expand over next two years. Nor the extra radio channels.

RogerThis wrote: »

Tony, from the quote from watty.

Do you know what RTE are paying at the moment to be on Sky?

RTE pay nothing to be on sky, I think you mis interpreted Watty's point.

STB wrote: »

How easy is to have a 28.2E and 9E Ku and Ka on the one bracket on the one dish.

.

Only currently possible on a Wavefrontier T55. Which is an expensive beast.

28.2 & 13E is about the limit and that's slightly iffy even on 80cm to 90cm dish. Ka band is nearly twice the frequency, thus a dish has nearly x4 gain. A large dish is nearly x4 harder to align than on Ku! (regular satellite).

A regular 65cm Sky dish is too big. Also some Ku mesh dishes may be too open and/or rough. Solid is preferable.

We will have an Irish Spot! In London a 43cm works for Sky and in Limerick you need 65cm in rain. Maybe slightly more in extreme West, South West, North west in heavy west coast rain.

The Ka Sat is more effective power due to spot pointed at US (a novelty, only some of the Schools Satellite Internet and RTE OB has ever had that!).

So the really cheap small 44cm metal cone with rear mounted standard fitting LNB (and secondary mini cassegrain reflector inside lid) will work. These are in a plastic box with square front and tapered rear. Only about 25 Euro. Light so if you buy a pallet from factory the shipping is a lot less than for Sky dishes.


Rear of dish unit (the LNB has been "hacked" for mysterious non-satellite application)
(The other half of pole mount missing) Low weight and low wind load means it can go on a tv bracket mount.


Front (Digiweb Metro outdoor radio beside it)

This doesn't look like a dish. So will usually "beat" the one dish rule

Elevation is 29 degrees for kasat @ 9E compared to 22.5 Degrees for Sky.
Put Diseqc switch at existing dish and run coax to where ever you put this 45cm square plastic box (inner 44cm dish in box).

Direct TV Ku and Ka are closer, (like 13E Ka and 9E combo I posted). Also Direc TV Ka is circular polarised.

The only single dish option for 9E and 28E is T55 wavefrontier and it's big, ugly, heavy, awkward to align on Kasat and expensive.

I'd go for separate dishes. You can put the 45cm square box above the Sky Dish as it has no arm and 6.5 degree higher elevation if you MUST do one pole. Or if a retro fit, put the square box for kasat some other location.


I'll have a spare square boxed dish, I'll take some photos later of how LNB and bracket works. The earlier photos are obviously not a satellite application (though a real sat dish)

Similar but more expensive model http://www.hm-sat-shop.de/antennen-diverse/megasat-sd-flat-440-flachantenne.html
Select antennen in menu then diverse and scroll down
Megasat / ÖSD Flat 440


The really flat ones on that site are Ku only using built-in LNB and labyrinth mico horns and waveguide combiners so are useless for Ka band (no dish inside)

It's not offset, so it really would be at 29 degree elevation like that, approx. No need to dis-assemble case, the LNB is held by a plastic bracket and lock screw at rear.

If you order direct from Turkish factory you can get without the normally included Ku LNB. They can probably source suitable Ka LNB. Some LNB are too short for horn to be at focus.

WARNING Will Robinson!
These 44cm dish in a plastic box are no good in Ireland for Sky when it rains. Maybe OK in Wexford. Definitely OK in South East of England. But should be fine for Kasat if we can find the correct LNB. No need to worry and test till hopefully successful Kasat commissioning a few weeks or month after launch (hopefully OK too)

Has anybody wondered how RTE happened to fall on this sat solution for the 3% of the country that needed covering post analogue switch off.

The satellite is launching this year so how long has this possibility been around
and what was RTE intentions for the 3% of the country post analogue switch anyway ,free SKY maybe.

Did this possibility ever come up in negotiations between RTE and one vision or boxer.

If this is the solution for the 3% ,How is it going to look for RTE if more people around the country take up this SAT solution as a way to get a full FTA package ,through the one remote control

If in the next 3 years 30% of the population switch to this free sat service which RTE will have to advertise ,nearing analogue switch off and only a small percentage go with the DTT service which only has RTE channels .

WILL RTE not look a bit stupid if this service for the 3% becomes the more DOMINANT service out of the two.

Half the country has south facing back gardens ,so in their cases how, would this one DISH rule apply , most people will go for the cheaper option .

Maybe if the FTA + boxes take off , RTE will run ADS with EAMON DUNPHY on instead of HOOK , telling us all how much he LOVE'S technology , PAUSE REWIND ETC.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Is Ka Sat supposed to deliver a higher power spot beam over Ireland Watty , out of interest. Your dish looks scarily small by our normal standards.

I take your point on smaller satellite shadow areas (ie north side of mountains in the west) because of better elevation in the sky.

Currently the only dedicated spot for Ireland is this

It's old, doesn't do that amount of power. Used by BBC and Five for feeds to TX sites, by RTE and BBC for OB and by Schools here for Satellite Internet/"Broadband" (VSAT). It also has no space left.
http://www.lyngsat.com/intel907.html

Sky/Freesat is a constellation. It only needs a 43cm /45cm dish (one of those small boxes) in London. It's Astra 2A, 2B, 2D and Eurobird 1

Astra2A and 2B South Beam


Astra2A and 2B North Beam


Astra2D North Beam


Eurobird1 S1


Eurobird1 Fixed

These footprints don't take account that the rain fade is worse at lower elevations (the further West and North the worse). Elevation is about 22.5 in middle of Ireland.

The recommended Sky dish in SE England is 45cm and in Ireland is 65cm. But taking account of rain fade, transponder power dropping with age, you can see that in Dublin a 50cm might be fine and in Donegal and Kerry 80cm might be needed for same performance. 65cm is a compromise. Those in West, North West and South West actually get more pixellation and breakup than those in Dublin. It happens more often to as the West as nearly 6 times the rainfall.


Kasat proposed Spots

I have shown a few spots here of the EIGHTY the satellite has. It's probably going to be the biggest and most powerful satellite ever launched in europe.

For the same TX power (and newer satellites tend to be more powerful) a smaller spot is more concentrated so have more effective power.
Ka is nearly twice the frequency of Ku (Astra 2x / Eurobird 1) so a dish has nearly x4 gain. This means a 43cm dish on ka is close to same signal as 75cm to 80cm on Sky/Freesat.

But we actually have a dedicated spot


The spots that are the same colours are the same channels reused. Unlike Ku (Sky) where the constellation gives you the whole band, each Ka Spot is about 1/4 of the channels only. This also means that it's likely that distribution to multiple receivers can use a single output LNB and simply split the signal like TV (If done properly, even if all the possible transponders used, all should be same H/V and Tone On/Off). If they are using greater than 2GHz, it's possible to have a couple of different Ka LNBs for different spot groups.

It's probable in a clear sky that a 20cm to 30cm dish might work! The large (for ka Band!) size is to ensure rain fade margin.

In South East UK and in many parts of Europe Mainland the tiny lidl Camper dish works fine in rain if you are in the "hot" part of all the beams/spots you need. Up till now we have been on the edge of coverage for almost all Irish/UK services. This time we get our own spot, Unlike Sky/Freesat where the signal in West of Ireland is rubbish compared to South East England.

Ka generally uses a much smaller dish than Ku.

Also the Tooway is VSAT using DOCSIS. It has a transmitter, so for a working two way link (for Internet) VSAT always needs a larger dish than TVRO/DTH (Ordinary TV reception only). The Tooway people assured me that VSAT on Kasat only needs a 45cm dish.

The other issues are Modulation type, Transponder width, FEC and Symbol rate. These also affect dish size. DVB-s2 is more efficient than DVB-s. On Ku and VSAT that is used to get more data. On Ka the TV will likely use the modulation to ensure rain margin. The VSAT transponders are adaptive. They actually change modulation on Kasat to stop loss of signal during heavy rain and turn up the speed to near double older Ku VSAT in clear skies. Obviously TV transponder is fixed symbol rate.

I really think the "one dish" rule is not going to be an issue as the kasat dish can be in a box and will be so small and unobtrusive. They have never applied it to MMDS dishes which are bigger and uglier.

Anyhow, obviously we can test before madly installing loads of dishes. Spectrum Analyser with decoder for DVBs2 to also measure BER etc.

For Border counties the N.I./Scotland spot is easy.
For Waterford to Dundalk, the Welsh/Cornish spot is easier.
For rest of Ireland the dish size would rise rapidly. A larger dish needs to be very rigid and is very tricky to align on Ka without a spectrum Analyser.


But Freesat has a large installed base. They won't consider it as the changing of all the LNBs is too expensive. The four UK spots will be mostly rural Internet, esp. now that the Con-LibDems have shelved the Rural universal 2Mbps Broadband.

Tooway on kasat is likely to offer same or higher cap, more consistent 3Mbps or more than Mobile and possibly less than €20 month. But 790ms minimum ping. Installers will need good test gear.