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Why oh why..the angelus?

socio

Can any of you decent, well-informed types tell me why when I listen to RTE radio one I have to listen to the bells of the angelus before the news? RTE is the state broadcaster, for which we all ultimately pay for through licence fees. Given the extraordinarily unhealthy relationship between the Catholic Church and the state in Ireland, shouldn't we be trying to separate the two as much as possible?

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socio

MazG wrote: »

The Angelus is staying (for now... who knows what the future may bring) and if have nothing further to add to the debate than 'I can't see where it fits in the mandate' when I've shown you where I think it does, then really, there's no point in continuing.

To be honest, getting bogged down on RTE's mandate, while interesting, doesn't really seem to be addressing the issue of whether they should actually be doing it (regardless if it explicitly said, 'the RTE mandate includes playing RCC calls to prayer'). We should be striving to reduce such traditions in light of recent events.

faceman

socio wrote: »

So you would rather someone speaking for you that you can have no involvment in electing and can't have any influence on their policies, someone who is merely obeys orders from a group of elderly men it Italy?

Well actually I'd rather no one speaks on my behalf!

socio

Mylesie wrote: »

The Angelus is usually accompanied by the ringing of the Angelus bell, which is to spread good-will to everyone on Earth. Can't see any harm in that

Can you not see the harm in aligning the Catholic Church (of which the angelus is a symbol) with the state broadcaster and in particular the national news?

socio

faceman wrote: »

Well actually I'd rather no one speaks on my behalf!

Fair point!

Zombrex

MazG wrote: »

And on that snotty note, I take my leave. If a debate on a boards forum on the merits (or otherwise) of RTÉ broadcasting the Angelus bells takes my interest, I can't see how you would leap to the conclusion that a court case on the same topic would not interest me.

Because it (take it to the courts) was a silly, flippant remark, which suggests you aren't taking any of this seriously.

Ghost Buster

faceman wrote: »

Could a local TD talk for you instead?

Not ideally but preferably.

MazG

Wicknight wrote: »

Because it (take it to the courts) was a silly, flippant remark, which suggests you aren't taking any of this seriously.

Sorry, I know I said I was leaving the discussion, but I can't let that one pass. I was neither being silly nor flippant in my remarks. The Broadcasting Act is is a statutory document and if you believe (as you seem to do) that RTÉ is in breach of the Act, then the logical thing to do would be to initiate proceedings to force them to comply with it.

Zombrex

MazG wrote: »

Sorry, I know I said I was leaving the discussion, but I can't let that one pass. I was neither being silly nor flippant in my remarks. The Broadcasting Act is is a statutory document and if you believe (as you seem to do) that RTÉ is in breach of the Act, then the logical thing to do would be to initiate proceedings to force them to comply with it.

Yes because I'm going to sue everyone and everything I have a passing interest in :rolleyes:

Don't be so silly.

Truley

socio wrote: »

Can you not see the harm in aligning the Catholic Church (of which the angelus is a symbol) with the state broadcaster and in particular the national news?

Just because they broadcast a Catholic 'show' doesn't mean they are aligned with the Catholic Church, anymore then showing Desperate Housewives alignes them with Hollywood, or showing the World Cup alignes them with FIFA. In fact I don't know whether the Church has any kind of sway in the Angelus' broadcast. I don't think it's run as a commerical entity, though I could be wrong.

MazG

Wicknight wrote: »

Yes because I'm going to sue everyone and everything I have a passing interest in :rolleyes:

Don't be so silly.

So it's .. ahem... not a big deal then?

Fanny Cradock

Wicknight wrote: »

Fanny you are playing games. You said the RTE mandate includes more than what I said. Great I'm happy to accept that since the mandate is hundreds of words and I was trying to paraphrase into a sentence or two. Obviously there is going to be details I missed. But the issue is does it include a programme like the angelus which are basically non-programs, scheduled breaks in programming because you are supposed to be doing something else.

I'm not playing games. You initially insisted that RTE are there to entertain and inform. This was not accurate and you later added educate to your list when it was shown that your previous description was inadequate. Now you say that you made a mistake because you were paraphrasing RTE's own words into a sentence or two - which is fair enough. However, given that the RTE's own words amounted to one sentence there was really no need to for you to paraphrase their statement in the first place. Certainly not to the point where it conveniently suits your argument. I'll say it again, thanks for the paraphrase but I prefer to stick to RTE's own words as seen below.

"RTÉ must provide a comprehensive range of programmes in the Irish and English languages that reflect the cultural diversity of the whole island of Ireland and include…programmes that entertain, inform and educate, provide coverage of sporting, religious and cultural activities and cater for the expectations of the community generally as well as members of the community with special or minority interests, and which, in every case respect human dignity"

and

"RTÉ will continue to broadcast religious services on both radio and television and will also provide programming dealing with religious and spiritual topics on a regular basis."

over against your version which reads like this:

"RTÉ must provide a comprehensive range of programmes in the Irish and English languages that reflect the cultural diversity of the whole island of Ireland and include…programmes that entertain, inform and educate, provide coverage of sporting, religious and cultural activities and cater for the expectations of the community generally as well as members of the community with special or minority interests, and which, in every case respect human dignity"

and

"RTÉ will continue to broadcast religious services on both radio and television and will also provide programming dealing with religious and spiritual topics on a regular basis."

The Angelus as far as I can see doesn't fit any of the current mandate that RTE have.

That is because you are using your paraphrased understanding and not RTE's own words. Aside from the above quotes that I've given, RTE goes on to say that "as part of its commitment to public service broadcasting, [RTE] reflects in its general output on radio, television, web and print publishing the cultural and spiritual values of the people of Ireland. As many people regard their religious faiths as central to their lives it is important that the audience can find on RTÉ programmes that reflect the significance of religion in Ireland today."

The angelus isn't coverage of religious activities.

If it is not a religious activity then what is it?

Since 1972 Article 44 of the constitution says that the State will not endow any religion.

We should first define endow. (Perhaps the Supreme Court has a different definition?) Unless you are of the opinion that RTE as a State body is obliquely funding the RCC by not charging them for one minute slot, I don't see how you can say that the State is providing the RCC with a permanent source of income.

The issue is RTE placing a particular religious denomination's practice in a place of privilege in its scheduling.

This is a fair point and I would probably like to see the Angelus modified further than it is. However, I also recognise that the 86.6% Catholic majority may have certain needs or desires that don't necessarily fit with mine.

Again can you show me where the angelus fits RTE's current mandate given that it is not covering a religious service nor providing details or information on a religious practice.

Again, we would need to define what RTE mean by “service”. There are a number of definitions that would suggest the Angelus is providing a religious service. For example:

An act of helpful activity; help; aid: to do someone a service;
Also called divine service. public religious worship according to prescribed form and order;
A ritual or form prescribed for public worship or for some particular occasion.

Still, I don't think there is need to get bogged down over the definition of “service” when RTE have adequately outlined their position. For more on this, please read any of the quotes I have previously given. Though not reproduced in full, I was nevertheless careful not to paraphrase them.

That wasn't really my point. You asked if I would object RTE encouraging theists to reflect on their lives. That is an ideological agenda, as would encouraging people to reflect on how great capitalism is, or reflect on the emptiness of materialism. It is up to the theists when and what they want to reflect on.

I see that you side-stepped my objections to your capitalism analogy. Again, the Angelus isn't saying how great RCism is. It isn't making any value judgements about Catholicism in and of itself. Furthermore, I don't believe that RTE are specifically encouraging people to repeat the Angelus. Rather, it is scheduling a programme that caters to a specific part of society, which I see as being perfectly compatible with what I've read in their standards and guidelines.

Given that you don't think it is RTE's place to encourage the public to reflect on the emptiness of materialism – remember that those are your words and your stumbling block - I assume you feel it isn't RTE's part to produce programmes that cater to those wishing to improve themselves on either an emotion or physical level?

I would love to see that minute given over to a more holistic look at life. So, for example, one day they could cater towards viewers interested in getting in shape, the next day it could be used to suggest a super quick healthy meal, or give some life hack tip and also provide a moment to focus on spiritual matters. But that is just me.

In a secular society religion is a private matter, not something regulated by the State. RTE should not be encouraging people to do anything based on ideology, religious or otherwise. That is not its role.

And here, at last, is the nub of it. Religion should be put in its place.

I'm going to bow out of this debate with you, WK, as I have to go and foist my religious beliefs on some heathens. Besides, I don't imagine that we are going to agree, so it is better for the both of us.

lmaopml

I think it's fairly clear that it's a broadcast that doesn't bother too many people, is 'valued' by many people still for various and assorted reasons - and in general even people who don't particularly care about it can see this and are willing to say it's no harm...and is inline with our national broadcasters own regulations etc.

I think it's doing people who are normal Catholics a disservice to presume that we want to control the populace or even the 'humdinger', the education system....really, I would say most of us 'don't'...I for one would only love to see choice available..

In fairness, I would like to see the state get up off it's arse and do something positive by rolling out a good ET system and stop shying behind it's responsibilities. I'd like to see people have choice and I think most right thinking religious people and non religious people, would have no problem with society taking this shape naturally rather than forced...

A little preamble there, but I can see it in the tone of the debate thus far, so I preambled...

Interesting thread though..

Zombrex

MazG wrote: »

So it's .. ahem... not a big deal then?

To me? Nope, not a big deal at all.

The only people who seem to think it is a big deal are those who come out of wood work to keep it any time anyone raises the issue of dropping it.

It boggles the mind that people argue so strongly to keep it. What is the big deal? There is a ton of reasons to drop it, the reasons to keep it are weak to the point of virtual nonexistence.

PDN

I'd be very happy to see it gone. It's historical association with the reciting of the Hail Mary by Papal decree means most non-Catholics will forever see it as an assertion of Roman Catholic dominance of the culture.

The attempt to rebrand it as a time of reflection for all religions reminds me of the way the Orange Order in Ulster now tries to pretend that their display of cultural dominance (the Twelfth of July) is a cuddly family-friendly day called 'Orangefest'.

Zombrex

lmaopml wrote: »

I think it's fairly clear that it's a broadcast that doesn't bother too many people, is 'valued' by many people still for various and assorted reasons - and in general even people who don't particularly care about it can see this and are willing to say it's no harm...and is inline with our national broadcasters own regulations etc.

Can you point out how producing a call to pray for one particular religion in Ireland is in line with the broadcasters own regulations, specifically the part that says RTE will show no editorial or programming bias based on religion and will operating in line with the constitution that says the State will not promote the interests of a particular religion above others?

And by the way "in the majority" is not a valid answer. The non-bias clause does not say "unless the religious group is bigger than all the others"

lmaopml wrote: »

I think it's doing people who are normal Catholics a disservice to presume that we want to control the populace or even the 'humdinger', the education system....really, I would say most of us 'don't'...I for one would only love to see choice available..

Most of you don't care about the angelus either. I think it is actually more of a disservice to Catholics to pretend that those arguing strongly here for the angelus to be kept represent most Catholics in Ireland.

Irish Catholics survived having a national broadcaster that didn't produce a break for the angelus just fine for 30 years before it was introduced in the 1950.

The idea that this is required or even wanted by the majority of Catholics is unfounded.

johnfás

Wicknight wrote: »

Can you point out how producing a call to pray for one particular religion in Ireland is in line with the broadcasters own regulations, specifically the part that says RTE will show no editorial or programming bias based on religion and will operating in line with the constitution that says the State will not promote the interests of a particular religion above others?

If you are so convinced of this paragraph, why not seek a judicial review of the matter... you'll inevitably win, won't you?....

Zombrex

johnfás wrote: »

If you are so convinced of this paragraph, why not seek a judicial review of the matter... you'll inevitably win, won't you?....

If you are so convinced I'm wrong why don't you go to college, get a law degree, become a solicitor, start a law firm, work your way up to judge, gain political ties, then get on the supreme court then wait around for a cause about the angelus and RTE and then make a judgment that the angelus is fine based on constitutional law.

Then you would really know for sure wouldn't you, I mean if you care so much about it which you clearly do :rolleyes:

johnfás

Wicknight wrote: »

If you are so convinced I'm wrong why don't you go to college, get a law degree, become a solicitor, start a law firm, work your way up to judge, gain political ties, then get on the supreme court then wait around for a cause about the angelus and RTE and then make a judgment that the angelus is fine based on constitutional law.

Then you would really know for sure wouldn't you, I mean if you care so much about it which you clearly do :rolleyes:

I couldn't give a hoot whether the Angelus is on the television or not in much the same way I couldn't give a hoot if RTE saved a bit of money by cutting Ear to the Ground. I tend to be making myself a cup of tea when it is on in anticipation of Bryan Dobson's tie a minute later. However, you are the one who has hankered on for 12 pages about it and in your latest post cited all sorts of issues including broadcast regulations and the constitution. If you're so sure of these issues, why not progress your sentiments, expressed over twelve pages, and prove yourself right.

Oh and by the way, I do have a law degree, and I'm quite satisfied that you are wrong. But it must be a damn conspiracy with all those judges.

socio

Truley wrote: »

Just because they broadcast a Catholic 'show' doesn't mean they are aligned with the Catholic Church, anymore then showing Desperate Housewives alignes them with Hollywood, or showing the World Cup alignes them with FIFA. In fact I don't know whether the Church has any kind of sway in the Angelus' broadcast. I don't think it's run as a commerical entity, though I could be wrong.

Comparing the angelus to Desperate Housewives or the World Cup is utter nonsense. Neither FIFA nor Hollywood were involved in governing people's lives in Ireland, unlike the Catholic Church. Don't get me wrong, I can think of many reasons to get of Desperate Housewives!

But the point is that playing the angelus before the national news, which is not a show but a break in broadcasting (as others have pointed out), is symbolically shoring up the idea that the Catholic Church and the state are two sides of the same coin. Why some people find this so hard to grasp is beyond me.

We have an insidious organisation that have controlled the lives of others for their own ends (namely power and perversion). Would you not agree that as a state we should be trying to extricate ourselves from them as much as possible? Removing the angelus being one step (albeit a small one) further in this direction.

PDN

johnfás wrote: »

If you are so convinced of this paragraph, why not seek a judicial review of the matter... you'll inevitably win, won't you?....

Moderator's Note:
This an internet discussion board. People are free to air their views for or against something without silly demands that they shut up or take it court.

Zombrex

johnfás wrote: »

I couldn't give a hoot whether the Angelus is on the television

Apparently you care enough about it to post on the Internet about it.

johnfás wrote: »

If you're so sure of these issues, why not progress your sentiments, expressed over twelve pages, and prove yourself right.

You answered your own question there. I'm already sure about it, why would I need to take a court case to prove myself right? Wouldn't that be some what redundant?

Having said that I'm open to being shown how I'm wrong if someone can manage to string together a coherent argument, so if you have anything substantial to add to this discussion I'm all ears.

Thomas828

I'm Catholic but the Angelus isn't really significant to me. But I wouldn't like to see it taken off. To me it's more a time signal, just like the BBC's six pips. And although RTE Radio 1 may go through changes, the bells at noon and 6pm don't. RTE Radio 1 wouldn't be the same without the Angelus.

lmaopml

Wicknight wrote: »

And by the way "in the majority" is not a valid answer

Wicknight, I don't believe I said that, and if I inferred it, I didn't mean the majority of 'Catholics' want to see the program.....I meant that people in general, even on this thread, don't seem to mind the broadcast, some do pray and 'value' it, some may change over, and others just sit out the bongs and might make a cup of tea or say their own prayer...or reflect for a moment..

I think the Angelus has moved on iykwim, even from it's critics who allign it politically...
It doesn't exclusively represent RC'(ism), it has become an Irish tradition that crosses over religious borders and is recognised in this way by most...You see it perhaps as a RC call to prayer ( I think )...whereas most people who are RC will look on it that way, but it is being 'broadcast' as a time of 'reflection'....Perhaps if it were renamed it wouldn't seem to cause such a political reaction from critics? The broadcast is very PC as it is..

It probably will disappear off the TV one day - However, I think the reaction you are getting is not so much about how we are all 'insisting' on keeping it, it's moreso to do with why anybody sees an urgency to get rid of it, when they know others actually enjoy it, and the fascination this arouses..

Truley

socio wrote: »

Comparing the angelus to Desperate Housewives or the World Cup is utter nonsense. Neither FIFA nor Hollywood were involved in governing people's lives in Ireland, unlike the Catholic Church. Don't get me wrong, I can think of many reasons to get of Desperate Housewives!

My point was that RTE broadcast a wide range of programmes. The programmes don't necessarily represent the state's political stance on a subject. For example if they aired a documentary on Richard Dawkins does that mean they are trying to enforce athiesm on the population? Or if they show an episode of The Sopranos maybe they are trying to promote organised crime?

But the point is that playing the angelus before the national news, which is not a show but a break in broadcasting (as others have pointed out), is symbolically shoring up the idea that the Catholic Church and the state are two sides of the same coin. Why some people find this so hard to grasp is beyond me.

I don't find it hard to grasp, I can see where you are coming from. I just think you are reading too much into it. You don't always have to judge things by how true or not they are. Ask yourself whether the Angelus is acutally causing harm to people. Is it pushy, overly invasive? Is it preaching? Making demands? I don't think so. It provides a service for a particular grouping of people, the same way World Cup coverage provides a service for football fans. It's not a big deal.

We have an insidious organisation that have controlled the lives of others for their own ends (namely power and perversion). Would you not agree that as a state we should be trying to extricate ourselves from them as much as possible? Removing the angelus being one step (albeit a small one) further in this direction.

The Angelus is a service for Catholic people. I don't see it as a service to the Catholic Church. The church itself has nothing to directly gain from it, financial or otherwise. By taking it away the only people you are really hurting are the (predominantly) older, more traditional generation of Irish people. I would consider it a pretty empty victory on behalf of Athiesm. Taking something away from people to make a political point rather than promoting unity or improving people's lives.

patrickk

The Angelus in its original form :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7BbncHyw9E&feature=player_embedded#!

http://www.fisheaters.com/angelus.html

Our Lady of Mount Carmel 16th July 2010 is special day for all people to pray for sick or just find peace in our hearts .Open your hearts to Love of God through Our Lady of Mount Carmel:

http://www.magnificat.ca/cal/engl/07-16.htm