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RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

slegs

RTE CFO speaking at Seanad committee announces that RTE will launch a Saorsat service with spot beam on Ireland of FTA PSB channels from Q2 2011. Presume Astra 28.2 but he didnt say.

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Minstrel27

ftakeith wrote: »

Irish TV will be fta through an outdoor tv aerial only not satellite
http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0714/dtt.html

this thread should be moved or deleted

You should be deleted. This thread is clearly about the announcement of a FTA satellite service.

gtg60

Just throwing this question out there but is this of any benefit to those of us who can receive Irish DTT anyway?

It's not like it's going to provide a one box solution with Irish and UK channels with one 7 day EPG.

My initial excitement has petered out when I realised there would be more expense and different equipment involved. So, really, IMHO this is only of benefit to those who cannot receive Irish DTT.

Minstrel27

gtg60 wrote: »

IMHO this is only of benefit to those who cannot receive Irish DTT.

The announcement was for the PSB (and TV3) channels so if you have DTT then there would be nothing to get giddy about. IMO of course.

cgarvey

Well the RTE CFO believes that a SD DTT picture (RTE on test DTT) is better than a HD satellite picture (BBC HD), so probably not!

When more equipment becomes available later, it might make more sense. (I.e. better EPG integration, etc.).

Tony

Possibly but I think if they use the right satellite (astra 2 would be my preference but seems unlikely ) and get a good one box solution it could actually kill DTT in the long term in my opinion.

gtg60 wrote: »

Just throwing this question out there but is this of any benefit to those of us who can receive Irish DTT anyway?

It's not like it's going to provide a one box solution with Irish and UK channels with one 7 day EPG.

My initial excitement has petered out when I realised there would be more expense and different equipment involved. So, really, IMHO this is only of benefit to those who cannot receive Irish DTT.

Onthe3rdDay

So to summarise.

DTT coverage for at least 90 percent of population,
This new System to cover the rest, the perfect excuse not to replace relays.
Sky to continue to charge for it's encrypted RTE signal

Frankly it's a bit of a cop out. Those that have sky boxes and stop subscribing (which is far more likely to happen in the months to come!) will have to get either A DTT TV or box to keep receiving RTE.

A FTV card using the sky system would have been a more sensible option but I don't have to tell that to people on here.

I'm not disappointed with RTE. It's done it too often before. It's Like being in an emotionally dead relationship where you stay together for other reasons than love.

gtg60

Tony wrote: »

Possibly but I think if they use the right satellite (astra 2 would be my preference but seems unlikely ) and get a good one box solution it could actually kill DTT in the long term in my opinion.

Oh, yes, agreed, if we could have got it on the same sat with equipment we already have then it'd have been a winner but alas...

cgarvey

Onthe3rdDay wrote: »

DTT coverage for at least 90 percent of population,

98% is the goal (with various targets before ASO).

Not sure FTV Card scheme is viable (especially given the subsidy level required to just serve 2% population). There'd still be a massive encryption bill to pay (assuming the Sky deal would quickly go sour if there was any mention of FTA or an FTV card scheme).

We can only hope that EU regulation will catch up on Sky before we realise that dream of a Sky box, without sub, getting RTE, I think.

pitkan

mike65 wrote: »

Wasn't aware of a one dish rule, what happens if I stick an additional dish on a pole in my back garden?

Neither was I . I have 4 dishes in my back garden.:D:D:D

Tony

gtg60 wrote: »

Oh, yes, agreed, if we could have got it on the same sat with equipment we already have then it'd have been a winner but alas...

Well even if it is hotbird as Watty suggests its not a complete disaster as both hotbird and astra 2 can be received on the same dish so with the right lnb's and switching the satellite choice would be transparent to the receiver. I fear though if it means larger dishes this will be an obstacle to take up.

watty

Tony wrote: »

Thanks Watty, is there a launch date set for this?

I've asked some guys in the press to try find out what satellite they (RTE) have in mind (if they themselves know)

Launch date Q3 2010 originally for the most likely candidate.
Seems to have slipped
http://www.eutelsat.com/satellites/upcoming-launches.html

KA-SAT
Ordered by Eutelsat from EADS Astrium, KA-SAT is scheduled for launch between November 2010 and January 2011. Entirely innovative in design, the satellite will be configured with over 80 spotbeams, with a network of eight ground stations connecting to the Internet backbone.

The KA-SAT programme is to deliver efficient resources for the mass-market delivery of the Tooway™ consumer broadband service, targeted at users across Europe and the Mediterranean Basin located beyond range of ADSL networks. With a throughput of over 70 Gigabits per second, KA-SAT will be capable of serving over one million users who expect bandwidth and prices comparable to ADSL2 performance.

Eutelsat will also drive the development of satellite-based consumer broadband services with triple-play capability, by combining broadband services in the Ka-band, through KA-SAT, with the reception of TV channels in the Ku-band. In order to facilitate the availability of high-performance triple-play equipment at competitive prices, Eutelsat will deploy the KA-SAT satellite to 9° East. This deployment will simplify production of dual-feed antennas transmitting and receiving broadband services in the Ka-band from 9° East, and receiving television in the Ku-band from Eutelsat’s flagship HOT BIRD™ neighbourhood at 13° East.

Also some confusion if it's 9E or 13E
Originally discussed as 13E when I met Tooway guys 2 years ago. But now seems to be 9E.
Pluses: 9E is MUCH better elevation than 28.E Sky/Freesat. Less likely trees/roof block. Fitting on rear of roof overlooking house easier.
Minus: while a 9E/13E combo Ka/Ku is possible a 9E ka/ 28E Ku combo is very challanging (one Dish rule)

See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tooway
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KA-SAT

This demo dish/feed may infact be 13E ku on front LNB and 9E ka on disk reflector/rear BUC+LNB
Dark rectangular box is power Amp for transmitter. 3 IF cables. Ku TV, Ka Internet Downlinkk + TV and Ka Internet uplink. Ka TV can only use one polarisation if Internet is installed.

The Ireland Spot on Kasat would only need maybe 40cm for TV Receive only. Internet works on staggeringly small 43cm compared to 95cm mostly needed now.

Tony

Yep 9e and 28 is a non runner in my opinion.

Cantona's Collars

Let's all prepare to be let down by RTE (again)-that way we won't be disappointed.

Onthe3rdDay

cgarvey wrote: »

98% is the goal (with various targets before ASO).

Not sure FTV Card scheme is viable (especially given the subsidy level required to just serve 2% population). There'd still be a massive encryption bill to pay (assuming the Sky deal would quickly go sour if there was any mention of FTA or an FTV card scheme).

We can only hope that EU regulation will catch up on Sky before we realise that dream of a Sky box, without sub, getting RTE, I think.

Of course for 2% of population it's not viable. However, there are a huge amount of people who have SKY now who only pay to receive RTE. If RTE was free there would be a huge move over to A FTV card.

I don't have the exact figure but at the moment RTE claim that roughly 98% can get the analogue signal. However, in a lot of cases in the 85-98% range that signal is poor to say the least.

Obviously with DTT you either get it or you don't. However, the way RTE operate their claim that 98% will be covered has to be viewed with suspicion.

cgarvey wrote: »

Well the RTE CFO believes that a SD DTT picture (RTE on test DTT) is better than a HD satellite picture (BBC HD), so probably not!

As you point out yourself, they really know what they're talking about!!!

watty

Tony wrote: »

Yep 9e and 28 is a non runner in my opinion.

On a regular dish, yes. but gain needed for Kasat is so little that there is a simpler smaller solution than the wavefrontier dish.

Also I believe there is a smaller 65cm wavefrontier. The 90cm one not needed.

[EDIT: there is a 55cm Wavefrontier. That would work for ka 9E and sky/BBC ku 28.2E]

Mr McBoatface

And here I was yesterday insisting that RTE FTA would never happen:rolleyes: I'll wait until full details become available on the service before I get excited about it. Don't think the boss would like a 2nd dish on the back of our house:)

If it has no extra content or the PQ isn't much than DTT I'll be sticking with my DDT/SAT combo box .

Excellent news for those in area's where DTT is a non runner.

Tony

Hopefully something cheaper than a wave frontier will appear.

watty wrote: »

On a regular dish, yes. but gain needed for Kasat is so little that there is a simpler smaller solution than the wavefrontier dish.

Also I believe there is a smaller 65cm wavefrontier. The 90cm one not needed.

channelsurfer2

good thread.... can anyone such as Tony clarify whether for someone like me with sky can I add a second lnb to get this "KA-SAT" or will it be just as cheap to put up an aerial and stick with fta bbc on sky box?( in not too technical terms please:))

watty

Deleted User wrote: »

So that makes it a bit simpler then watty?
A 2nd lnb on a sky dish?

Can it be done?

No, no & yes

channelsurfer2 wrote: »

good thread.... can anyone such as Tony clarify whether for someone like me with sky can I add a second lnb to get this "KA-SAT" or will it be just as cheap to put up an aerial and stick with fta bbc on sky box?( in not too technical terms please:))

If you can get DTT, that's simpler.

You can't add a 2nd 9E LNB (Ka or Ku) to a 28.2E Sky/FTA/Freesat dish. Too great an angle. 2nd 40cm+ dish simplest or a custom or Wavefrontier dish for both LNBs on one dish. You also need a Diseqc switch.

If you have more than one receiver or PVR then you need Quad LNBs and multiple Diseqc switch (max 2 x PVRs and 4x switches) or Quattro Ka & Ku LNBs and Multiswitch (2 to 8 PVRs, or 16 non PVR or any mix)

13E to 28E is possible on one 80cm dish. Not 9E ka, I don't think.

Yes it can be done on a 55cm Wavefrontier dish (2 x LNBs and Diseqc if one sat receiver. More "interesting" if you want multiple TVs, but up to a 1000+ TVs possible with Quattro LNBs and Multiswitch. Assuming someone makes a Quattro Ka band LNB).

It may be possible on something cheaper & smaller that qualifies as a single dish. If one dish rule is NOT enforced, a 40cm dish & ka LNB is REALLY small as a second dish.

The 55cm Wavefrontier would let you have 19E, 16E (football), 13E and 23.5E also as well as 28E and 9E.

Do note, that if it is Ka-Sat, it doesn't launch till year end 2010/early Jan 2011

Tony

channelsurfer2 wrote: »

good thread.... can anyone such as Tony clarify whether for someone like me with sky can I add a second lnb to get this "KA-SAT" or will it be just as cheap to put up an aerial and stick with fta bbc on sky box?( in not too technical terms please:))

That really depends on what satellite they are going to use which is why I'm anxious to know what they plan to do. Until we know this we can only speculate on what equipment upgrades may be needed. At best its a new lnb, at worst its a second dish.

watty

We know:

Ka Band (Thus 100% DVB-S2, i.e. HD boxes only, even for SD TV)
Ireland spot beam
€1.5M per annum (i.e. sat with lot of space as that's cheap for 9 Channels)
Q2 2011 Service start

Sats are ordered years before launch and only military ones are secret. Both makers, Operators and launch operators boast for years in advance.

AFAIK none of the Ka in service have Irish Spot beam
The only two services likely by ANY date before 2012 is Avanti Hylas and Eutelsat kasat. (aka ka-sat and "Ka Sat" on searches).

For various reasons Hylas is unlikely and not likely to have a narrow enough spot. I'd also expect it to be cheaper

So that leaves Eutelsat's Kasat at 9E the only known candidate.
Details
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66914176&postcount=72
Beams

Not sure exactly which spot as it's hard to see outline of Ireland.

In fact when he said FTA and Spot Irish beam I knew it had to be a Future Ka band launch (mentioned at start of thread).

If he said "Ka Sat" that is official Eutelsat name. If he said Ka Band, that's generic?
Which did he say to the committee?

Mr McBoatface

Just adding some content speculation here-

If the Satellite system is going to be DVB-S2 which is ideal for HD content + with the news that 2 muxes are being used on DTT and not one mux as previously thought = At least one or more HD channels from the start ?

Sam Russell

As far as I know, the 'one dish rule' is about the need for planning permission. A single dish does not require planning permission, but multiple dishes do.

watty

new satellites are all exclusitly DVB-S2 even if zero TV or zero HD.

Sam Russell wrote: »

As far as I know, the 'one dish rule' is about the need for planning permission. A single dish does not require planning permission, but multiple dishes do.

Agreed. But
1) has to be enforced.
2) A dish on a back garden wall or shed is grey area.
3) More than 5 years without complaint, and you keep it.

A 55cm Wavefrontier toroidal will do 28E and 9E. There maybe another single dish solution. I will think about.

channelsurfer2

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.uk3w.com/torroidalcmp.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.uk3w.com/glassdish.htm&usg=__PY-wMJpIDEvmkbe1iLa4_-bML6s=&h=396&w=343&sz=15&hl=en&start=4&tbnid=C3EN_7hhEMmvJM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=107&prev=/images%3Fq%3D55cm%2Bwave%2Bfrontier%2Bsatellite%2Bdish%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1

something like the wavefront in this link?

[Deleted User]

cgarvey wrote: »

Well the RTE CFO believes that a SD DTT picture (RTE on test DTT) is better than a HD satellite picture (BBC HD), so probably not!

When more equipment becomes available later, it might make more sense. (I.e. better EPG integration, etc.).

Somebody should stop him from driving..

watty

channelsurfer2 wrote: »

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.uk3w.com/torroidalcmp.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.uk3w.com/glassdish.htm&usg=__PY-wMJpIDEvmkbe1iLa4_-bML6s=&h=396&w=343&sz=15&hl=en&start=4&tbnid=C3EN_7hhEMmvJM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=107&prev=/images%3Fq%3D55cm%2Bwave%2Bfrontier%2Bsatellite%2Bdish%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1

something like the wavefront in this link?

except it's typically €60 to €90 not £90.
Comes in 55 and 90cm versions. The baby one (55) fine for 9E ka Sat and 28E Ku Freesat. 16E football needs the

http://www.idealo.de/preisvergleich/OffersOfProduct/336124_-t-55-wavefrontier.html
http://www.ciao.de/Wavefrontier_Toroidal_T55__2302797

Well known German shop used by many on the forum €70
White
http://www.hm-sat-shop.de/antennen-wavefrontier/wave-toroidal-t55-p-weiss-.html
Charcoal
http://www.hm-sat-shop.de/antennen-wavefrontier/wave-toroidal-t55-p-anthrazit-.html

90cm version.

Toroidal 55

1. T55 has the same effectiveness of 55 cm (20 inches) dish for each LNBF installed.
2. T55 can accommodate up to 8 LNBFs.
3. T55 can cover up to 40 degrees in arc (60 degrees in azimuth)
28E - 9E is approx 20 Degrees

Antenna

a drawback to Ka band (compared to Ku band) - its more susceptible to rain-fade problems.

comments?

watty

I think so.

But the sat guys I spoke with (actual vendors) claimed the 43cm dish takes into account rain fade.

Dish gain does go up with square of Frequency, so at Ka a dish has nearly 6dB more gain at same size, or another way, 43cm in clear sky on Ka is nearly the same as 80cm dish on Ku in clear sky for same EIRP, certainly much more than 75. In London the Freesat/Sky is fine on 45cm dish. Unlike Sky/Freesat, the intended Irish service area would be in "hotspot" of the Ka Irish Spot. This means if nothing else was better (and it probably is), then in Clear sky a 27cm would work. But the 40cm+ needed for rain margin.

It will be interesting after Kasat launch, if successful, just how small a dish works in clear sky! Possibly even 20cm, 8"!

The newer Ka Satellite with small spots must have very much higher gain dish.
The newer satellites are always higher power than older ones.

Time will tell what sort of Internet Speeds Tooway on KaSat does in Rain and how much rain before breakup on Ka Saorsat.

The transponders and spots have much more dynamic power management too.

[Edit: for Ka Only they have a 66cm for Tooway]

That's for Hotbird 6 at 13 deg east, which has one downlink spot and 4 uplink spots.
No Irish Spot.
see bottom of this page http://www.satsig.net/tooway/tooway-satellite.htm
The Internet component of Kasat will use a staggering EIGHT earth stations (Hubs).

Here is Better map

It's the yellow /lemon spot I 1st thought. The overlay on the earth Satellite image is poor

mike65

watty wrote: »

Not sure exactly which spot as it's hard to see outline of Ireland.

Pretty sure the blue spot below the orange one in the NW covers Ireland.