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2010 Dublin Marathon- Sub 3 mentored thread

ecoli

Okay I have been approached about setting up a sub 3 mentoring thread. Before i start to issue clarification this thread is alot like Lynx ads. Just because links ads say Lynx will get you beautiful women doesnt make it a certainty. Likewise here the aim is to do are best to get you to 2.5X.XX but I cannot guarantee it.

This is geared towards the DCM and is a 18 week plan starting at 40 miles with a 4 week buildling phase getting up to 65 miles during course of plan. The plan includes 1 long run (15-20) one medium length (10-13) and culmination of hill work and marathon specific sessions @ MP and HMP

The plan will start 21st of June so anyone who is interested should be trying to hit around 40 miles coming into the plan however the fact that the first four weeks is base building gives people a chance to catch up. Anyone interested in following the plan put your name down and get to know each other. The idea behind these mentoring threads is not just to provide a training plan but also i full support in terms of encouragement and advice. I will also be here to answer questions as best i can and hopefully get a few of the Sub 3 guys from this forum to give there only insight and advice.

So put your name down and your previous best and Lets get to work:D

Name|Previous best |Mileage this week | Comments

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ELFOYZER

ecoli wrote: »

Again be sensible this should be at current pace not projected as this is 12 miles of constant running and as such gonna be hard enough without killing yourself trying to hit sub 3 pace if you are not there yet. Again it is early stages so you have time to get to the pace needed and also you are gonna have 16 and half miles in your legs from the two days previous so if you are not at the pace you want to be at dont be disheartened

Not sure on where 'current pace' is for me at the moment

.
I don't reckon I should go all out to maintain target pace, but how hard should I be pushing here on the H/M and M pace?
I'm now at ~ 40 min for 10k (6:27/mile). Putting this into McMillan Calculator I should be running H/M at 6:48 and Marathon @7:10.
This look ok to you?
Admittedly, I'm a bit off the pace now but 14 weeks from now.......

cunavalos

Week 3 Summary
Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|9 easy, 6 steady + strides, 10 easy, 16 easy|42|86
smmoore79| 3.10|5|42| 143
Speedy44|3:26|||
kaymin|n/a|5|48|135
ELFOYZER|3.29|5|42|142
cunavalos|n/a|6|40|120
Schnellimbiss |n/a|6|52|approx 125|

Still hanging in there. No injuries to report again but would really like to complete a full week. No sign of an end to the gaa season and i may have to make a decision soon. I dont feel that the physical exertions from from marathon training and gaa training are having an adverse effect on each other but it is getting harder to get up in the morning and am finding it hard to eat enough to keep going.

ecoli

ELFOYZER wrote: »

Not sure on where 'current pace' is for me at the moment.
I don't reckon I should go all out to maintain target pace, but how hard should I be pushing here on the H/M and M pace?
I'm now at ~ 40 min for 10k (6:27/mile). Putting this into McMillan Calculator I should be running H/M at 6:48 and Marathon @7:10.
This look ok to you?
Admittedly, I'm a bit off the pace now but 14 weeks from now.......

these seem reasonable enough anything within 6.45-6.55 and 7.05 - 7.15 should be okay. It is a bit away but in 14 weeks we will hopefully have you coping with the faster running or pretty close anyway so not to worry rather see you hitting the times then then than be running them now and being flat by the time DCM comes along

ecoli

cunavalos wrote: »

Week 3 Summary
Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|9 easy, 6 steady + strides, 10 easy, 16 easy|42|86
smmoore79| 3.10|5|42| 143
Speedy44|3:26|||
kaymin|n/a|5|48|135
ELFOYZER|3.29|5|42|142
cunavalos|n/a|6|40|120
Schnellimbiss |n/a|6|52|approx 125|

Still hanging in there. No injuries to report again but would really like to complete a full week. No sign of an end to the gaa season and i may have to make a decision soon. I dont feel that the physical exertions from from marathon training and gaa training are having an adverse effect on each other but it is getting harder to get up in the morning and am finding it hard to eat enough to keep going.

You may feel tired and heavy during the training plan and if so this is okay. During my winter training last year i felt like this a good bit even races i didnt go into fresh and ran them as sessions but by the time my taper came around i really felt revitalised and ready to go and that will be the thing as long as you will be hitting close to the times the taper will push you true.
Regarding eating if you are able to try eat 5-6 smaller meals a day these mean that you are rarely able to have time to get hungry while keeping the metabolism high because it is constantly having to break down food and not having long breaks between meals. These long meals encourage the metabolism to slow down to cope with the spells in between meals.

kaymin

Did the 2x(3,2,1) EP,MP,HMP session this evening as it doesn't suit to do it tomorrow. Received my new garmin today and went a bit gungho with the pace. Splits were:

1 EP 7:19
2 EP 7:28
3 EP 7:17
4 MP 6:41
5 MP 6:27
6 HMP 6:10
7 EP 7:18
8 EP 7:19
9 EP 7:24
10 MP 6:37
11 MP 6:31
12 HMP 6:04
13 Warm down

I did the 'HMP' miles harder than I should have as I wanted to see how I would cope with 6 minute mile pace in advance of the 5 mile race on Saturday.

Given that this is one of the hard sessions, is there any harm in pushing the pace a bit (without running yourself into the ground)?

ecoli

kaymin wrote: »

Did the 2x(3,2,1) EP,MP,HMP session this evening as it doesn't suit to do it tomorrow. Received my new garmin today and went a bit gungho with the pace. Splits were:

1 EP 7:19
2 EP 7:28
3 EP 7:17
4 MP 6:41
5 MP 6:27
6 HMP 6:10
7 EP 7:18
8 EP 7:19
9 EP 7:24
10 MP 6:37
11 MP 6:31
12 HMP 6:04
13 Warm down

I did the 'HMP' miles harder than I should have as I wanted to see how I would cope with 6 minute mile pace in advance of the 5 mile race on Saturday.

Given that this is one of the hard sessions, is there any harm in pushing the pace a bit (without running yourself into the ground)?

Different people react differently to training and you may well be able to handle pushing harder but the question i ask is why would you??
The idea of marathon training is to train your body to cope at your given marathon paces as efficiently as possible regarding glycogen storages etc. As such running quicker than half marathon pace on a regular basis changes the dynamics of the training as this is the point (roughly) that the body begins to adapt to develop fast twitch fibers and here is where lactate build up starts. This done on too frequent a basis can actually have adverse effects on your aerobic base which is crucial to your marathon success. You dont have to kill yourself in training to make it beneficial train smart rather than hard the whole time. Hard sessions have there place but training should always be controlled

woodchopper

ecoli wrote: »

Different people react differently to training and you may well be able to handle pushing harder but the question i ask is why would you??
The idea of marathon training is to train your body to cope at your given marathon paces as efficiently as possible regarding glycogen storages etc. As such running quicker than half marathon pace on a regular basis changes the dynamics of the training as this is the point (roughly) that the body begins to adapt to develop fast twitch fibers and here is where lactate build up starts. This done on too frequent a basis can actually have adverse effects on your aerobic base which is crucial to your marathon success. You dont have to kill yourself in training to make it beneficial train smart rather than hard the whole time. Hard sessions have there place but training should always be controlled

Firstly I agree that to run a marathon to the best of ones ability they the athlete need to become accustomed to marathon pace and become efficient at running this pace. Common sense will tell us that perfect practise makes perfect. However and correct me if I have taken this up wrong but are you suggesting that running at half marathon speeds during your marathon cycle too frequently will have an adverse effect on aerobic fitness. If this is the case where have your sources come from as this from my humble view seems incorrect. Perhaps it is the quick structure of your programme in that it is a race against time but a marathon schedule should be made up of three cycles 5k/10k, half marathon and then the marathon. The races in the lead up to a marthon should not just be thrown in for the sake of a race. A good half marathon can lead to a good marathon if the proper marathon cycle is utilized following the half. I am not quite sure of the timetable but the half for these athletes should be completed within the next month but then again your athletes are probably in a race against time as they have only recently started their programme. There should be a 6 month build up in my opinion something to look at in the future. Best of luck with the programme.

ecoli

woodchopper wrote: »

Firstly I agree that to run a marathon to the best of ones ability they the athlete need to become accustomed to marathon pace and become efficient at running this pace. Common sense will tell us that perfect practise makes perfect. However and correct me if I have taken this up wrong but are you suggesting that running at half marathon speeds during your marathon cycle too frequently will have an adverse effect on aerobic fitness. If this is the case where have your sources come from as this from my humble view seems incorrect. Perhaps it is the quick structure of your programme in that it is a race against time but a marathon schedule should be made up of three cycles 5k/10k, half marathon and then the marathon. The races in the lead up to a marthon should not just be thrown in for the sake of a race. A good half marathon can lead to a good marathon if the proper marathon cycle is utilized following the half. I am not quite sure of the timetable but the half for these athletes should be completed within the next month but then again your athletes are probably in a race against time as they have only recently started their programme. There should be a 6 month build up in my opinion something to look at in the future. Best of luck with the programme.

That comment was referring to running quicker than half marathon pace not actually HMP itself i encourage quite a bit of this actually (moreso maybe than other plans). I do get into bit long winded answers some times so missing some words is prob gonna happen:D

Regarding racing for the sake of racing i am against this and i try to encourage very little racing in the middle of a marathon training plan. I have worked in 2 races into the schedule for development rather than PBs in themselves for these (10 mile and Half Marathon) and they correlate to at that time i would be up around 10-12 mile PMP s around that time so they actually fit into the training plan nicely. My philosophy is more to race less frequently and i have been accused for under racing at times . Having said that the athletes should be in decent enough shape to tackle PBs given the strength gotten through the marathon training.

Again i would probably agree with you that 6 months would be ideal but given that i was approached about this just around the 20 week away mark i decided to follow tradition of many plans between 16-20 weeks. However there are a few of these athletes who are coming off shorter distances training when coming into this plan so this should be taken into consideration as just because i have not prescribed it does not mean that athletes have not done this of there own accord. Who knows depending on its success failure it could develop into an all year round marathon advice thread culminating in DCM every year but in the mean time i am just looking to do the best i can for the athletes who have decided to put there faith in me.

Hopefully that that can give you clarification and insight. Again feedback is always appreciated positive or negative (though constructive critcism rather than attacks preferred

)

Bloody Nipples

Hey ecoli, I've been trying out this week's plan and have to say it's quite enjoyable to bring a more scientific approach to training. I was wondering what's the longest run you're planning on incorporating into the program and how many of that distance you're planning on doing.
Personally, I did 3 20 mile runs in preparation for Cork last month and I was just wondering would there be much variation on the distance/amount.

ecoli

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

Hey ecoli, I've been trying out this week's plan and have to say it's quite enjoyable to bring a more scientific approach to training. I was wondering what's the longest run you're planning on incorporating into the program and how many of that distance you're planning on doing.
Personally, I did 3 20 mile runs in preparation for Cork last month and I was just wondering would there be much variation on the distance/amount.

2 20 mile runs as far as i can remember i dont have it on me at the moment but there are 18 and 19 mile runs which have MP miles in them. Regarding having the strength to complete the marathon wont be a problem i can assure you of that plus the mid week runs which incorporate up to 12 and 13 miles so hopefully that puts your mind at ease

ecoli

Okay first week with a marathon specific session drawing to a close. So how was it for you?

Here is next weeks schedule and we are now in full swing

Monday| Rest
Tuesday| 4 miles easy + 4 x 2 min hills walk recovery + 1-2 mile cool down
Wednesday| 10 miles easy
Thursday|8 miles easy
Friday|2 mile warm up, 3x2k HMP 2-3 min recovery, 2 mile cool down
Saturday| 4 miles recovery
Sunday| 16 miles LSR

Regarding Friday's session, this should be done on a very flat course preferably a flat 2k loop or even better on a track (this will help you allow to maintain even pace by allowing for lap splits)

Also with your sessions being tough ones it is of more importance to make sure your easy days are just that because going too fast will not allow you to recover properly to get the best benefit from these sessions

Any other questions just ask

Also the topic this week will be nutrition both in training and coming up to a race.

Speedy44

cunavalos wrote: »

Week 3 Summary
Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|9 easy, 6 steady + strides, 10 easy, 16 easy|42|86
smmoore79| 3.10|5|42| 143
Speedy44|3:26|5 ¦ 40 ¦ 75 ¦
kaymin|n/a|5|48|135
ELFOYZER|3.29|5|42|142
cunavalos|n/a|6|40|120
Schnellimbiss |n/a|6|52|approx 125|

Been fighting a damn chest infection for the past few weeks, so I've been very on again/off again. (The wife ended up with pnumonia, so I got off easy!).
Hopefully the worst of it is behind me now and I can get stuck in again. Going to have to try and build back up again slowly so I'll have to skip any tempp style sessions for a week or so.

ecoli

Speedy44 wrote: »

cunavalos wrote: »

Week 3 Summary
Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|9 easy, 6 steady + strides, 10 easy, 16 easy|42|86
smmoore79| 3.10|5|42| 143
Speedy44|3:26|5 ¦ 40 ¦ 75 ¦
kaymin|n/a|5|48|135
ELFOYZER|3.29|5|42|142
cunavalos|n/a|6|40|120
Schnellimbiss |n/a|6|52|approx 125|

Been fighting a damn chest infection for the past few weeks, so I've been very on again/off again. (The wife ended up with pnumonia, so I got off easy!).
Hopefully the worst of it is behind me now and I can get stuck in again. Going to have to try and build back up again slowly so I'll have to skip any tempp style sessions for a week or so.

The correct approach always come back slowly after injury and illness espeicially with illness as your immune system has been lowered as a making you more suseptible if you stress it too much to soon. best of luck with the recovery hopefully have you fighting fit in no time

ELFOYZER

Week 4 Summary
Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|9 easy, 6 steady + strides, 10 easy, 16 easy|42|86
smmoore79| 3.10|5|42| 143
Speedy44|3:26|5 | 40 | 75|
kaymin|n/a|5|48|135
ELFOYZER|3.29|5|41|193
cunavalos|n/a|6|40|120
Schnellimbiss |n/a|6|52|approx 125|

Hey there, right old week of up's and down's -

Monday - Sports Massage (sorted out niggle in knee)
Tuesday - 8 mile (easy)
Wednesday - 8 mile (easy)*
Thursday - 3mile(easy), 2 mile(MP), 1 mile (HMP); 2 mile(easy), 2 mile (MP), 1 mle (easy)*
Friday - REST
Saturday - 8 mile (easy)
Sunday - 16.5 mile (easy)

*Had a bad run on thurs :mad:. Ran 8 miler at 9pm on wed and then ran the thurs session at 6am - definitely not enough time to recover and paid for it. Couldn't believe I ran out of gas - disappointed, but lesson learned. In fairness e-coli, you did warn me!
Felt grand on Saturday and ran 8 miler at 6pm at fairly leisurely pace, with long run today early with friends.

Glad you are covering nutrition this week, my diet is brutal, writing this from the couch with glass of wine and chocolate, tut, tut, tut...

Bloody Nipples

Week 4 summary
Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|9 easy, 6 steady + strides, 10 easy, 16 easy|42|86
smmoore79| 3.10|5|42| 143
Speedy44|3:26|5 | 40 | 75|
kaymin|n/a|5|48|135
ELFOYZER|3.29|5|41|193
cunavalos|n/a|6|40|120
Schnellimbiss |n/a|6|52|approx 125|
Bloody Nipples|3.15|6|55.5|55.5|

Just thought I'd throw myself into the table as I intend on keeping this up.

ELFOYZER

ecoli wrote: »

Tuesday| 4 miles easy + 4 x 2 min hills walk recovery + 1-2 mile cool down

Any other questions just ask

Quick one - what pace should we hold on the hill repeats?

Bloody Nipples

kaymin

Week 4 summary
Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|9 easy, 6 steady + strides, 10 easy, 16 easy|42|86
smmoore79| 3.10|5|42| 143
Speedy44|3:26|5 | 40 | 75|
kaymin|n/a|5|49|184
ELFOYZER|3.29|5|41|193
cunavalos|n/a|6|40|120
Schnellimbiss |n/a|6|52|approx 125|
Bloody Nipples|3.15|6|55.5|55.5|

Summary for me:
Mon - rest
Tue - 8 miles easy
Wed - 2x (3xEP; 2xMP; 1xHMP) + 1 mile warm down.
Thurs - nothing
Fri - 8 miles easy
Sat - '5' mile race - 28:13, pb by a long way even taking account of the 4.9mile course
Sun - 15 miles - 7:17 average, felt tired.

kaymin

Re: nutrition - is it a good idea to not take in food during the long run in order to train the body to use its reserves as efficiently as possible?

Bloody Nipples

Personally I don't even use water or gels during my long runs (up to 20 miles). I'll eat high carb meals the day before a 20 mile run and make sure I'm well hydrated, then I'll just go out and do it. I've suffered from low blood sugar levels twice as a result of this approach but generally not til within the last 5 miles, so I only have to struggle on a few miles home. I'm not going to change this approach because it makes the marathon seem like a walk in the park with it's readily available water and gels and it's a good mental workout to force yourself to carry on.

smmoore79

my weekly summary as follows. 4 sessions and a total of 34.1 miles. Missed my 5m saturday recovery run which is why its a tad lower. And did a Mountain half marathon yesterday instead of 16 miles LSR. Reckon it was just as beneficial! Im so sore now!!

Thats 5 weeks now done and this week is my recovery week where mileage drops. At last!!

misty floyd

Taking gels or sports drinks during the long runs is the only way to know if you are suited to a particular brand/type. Wouldn't it be a disaster to take a gel in the middle of a marathon and be sick. This happened a guy from my club and he was really unhappy with his time. If I was trying to do PMP miles at the end of an LSR, I wouldn't like to have low blood sugar, its just not going to happen. Horrible. Obviously everyone is different and different things work for different people. Just my two cents.

ecoli

ELFOYZER wrote: »

Quick one - what pace should we hold on the hill repeats?

Pace is not so important on these as everyone will be tackling different hills but the should be a good hard effort but you should be able to finish the session without busting a gut

Krusty_Clown

I would be cautious about dehydrating myself unnecessarily. Sure, run lean on the fuel (as long as you practice your gels), but going without water for 3+ hours of exercise doesn't really serve any purpose. It won't teach your body to conserve water or to try to find alternative fuel sources, it will just dehydrate you, and affect the efficiency of your running and effectiveness of your long run (and ability to pick up pace towards the end of a long run, if that's part of ecoli's training strategy). It will also impact your recovery, as you will be recovering from dehydration as well as the physical stress of the long run. Weigh yourself before and after your long run (without clothes, as these will carry the sweat), and you'll get an idea how much fluid you're losing during your run.

Greg McMillan published an article about running long without fuel (I can't locate it now), but he still advocated taking on water.

*Edit* Found it:

McMillan wrote:

Finally, (and this is optional) a great way to ensure that you will deplete your carbohydrate stores on these long, steady runs is to not eat any carbohydrates immediately before or during the run. Any carbohydrates ingested will be used by the body for fuel, and we don't want this. We want to deny the body carbohydrates in these runs so that the muscles will become better at sparing the carbohydrate stores, more efficient at burning fat and used to running with lowered blood glucose levels. Now, many people think I'm crazy when I say this, but it works. It takes time to get adjusted to it if you have always been carbing up before and during your long runs, but with time and practice you can do it. I will note, however, that it is important to drink water and electrolytes throughout these runs so that you don't get dehydrated. I also recommend carrying an energy gel with you just in case you run into trouble (like taking a wrong turn, having to run longer than expected and getting a little woozy).

ELFOYZER

Interesting, as I tend to run my LSR's on or near empty also.Yesterday, I had a slice of toast 30 mins before meeting up with a few buddies for a 16 miler. I drank nothing throughout and had a gel in my pocket for 'emergency' purposes but never used it. The run became a bit demanding towards the end and my HR increased a little but nothing to worry me. Perhaps I should have been sipping on something throughout the run?Also, I ate and drank WAY TOO MUCH, for the remainder of the afternoon/evening.Maybe my body was trying to make up for what was lost during the LSR??I wonder could the food binge have been avoided had I fuelled properly prior to and during the long run?Generally, I'm eating reasonably well but then something like this happens and knocks my weight back up. Which leads me to my next question - what is the 'ideal' race weight? Less junk in the trunk = faster race times, (up to a point of course, diminishing returns and all that) but how do you know when you are at your perfect racing weight?

Krusty_Clown

I used to carry a bottle with me, and sip it as I went around, but these days I stop at a shop, grab a 500ml bottle of water, knock it back and push on as quickly as possible. The problem about these stops is that you get a minute or two of recovery, which you wont get on race day, but for me, it's worth the trade-off (I hate carrying bottles).

The ideal would be to stash cups of water / small bottles somewhere and do repeat loops, but for me, I can live with the stop/gulp. I'll also carry Isotonic gels, but usually only try to use them on PMP runs, where I try not to stop for water (unless it's very hot).

Running on near empty (fuel) is ok, as long as you have the energy to finish the run. If you don't, well......

I think everyone has a bit of a binge after a very long run, as the body craves what the body needs, so usually it'll be things like salt, sugar etc, which often triggers a demand for unhealthy foods (sweets, crisps, biscuits, beer!). The important thing to do is to eat healthy and eat soon. Try to have a carb/protein drink very soon after finishing the run (I use slim-fast chocolate shake with low fat milk). Then get the carbs back in (typical marathon runner food). Then fruit. Then if you still have room: biscuits, sweets, crisps and beer.

The ideal race weight is: 10 stone 2 pounds (kidding!). I find that if I eat healthy for 4-6 weeks before the marathon, the mileage alone will bring the weight down close to race weight, so I don't worry about it too much. LSRs are not for losing weight (it's just a by product), so don't expect to see weight savings after a long run (it'll likely just be carb depletion and dehydration anyway). The above is just what works for me. Everyone's gotta find what works best for them at the end of the day.

ELFOYZER

Thanks Krusty, reassuring to know I'm not the only post LSR binger!
Will aim to develop better post run eating habits over the next few weeks for sure.;)

Bloody Nipples

"It's not a burger, it's a high carb/high protein recovery snack"

you just have to look at these things from the right angle!

On another note anyone have any links to a solid core workout? Will take anecdotal evidence as gospel. A google search threw up a hell of a lot of options and I'm a little swamped

seanynova

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I would be cautious about dehydrating myself unnecessarily. Sure, run lean on the fuel (as long as you practice your gels), but going without water for 3+ hours of exercise doesn't really serve any purpose. It won't teach your body to conserve water or to try to find alternative fuel sources, it will just dehydrate you, and affect the efficiency of your running and effectiveness of your long run (and ability to pick up pace towards the end of a long run, if that's part of ecoli's training strategy). It will also impact your recovery, as you will be recovering from dehydration as well as the physical stress of the long run. Weigh yourself before and after your long run (without clothes, as these will carry the sweat), and you'll get an idea how much fluid you're losing during your run.

+1 on this, running low on fuel is one thing but you cant run low on hydration.

there are some really good articles around regarding fluid loss, and i was surprised to learn how much fluid the body will loose when excercising!
be careful with hydration!

ELFOYZER

Bloody Nipples wrote: »

"It's not a burger, it's a high carb/high protein recovery snack" you just have to look at these things from the right angle!

On another note anyone have any links to a solid core workout? Will take anecdotal evidence as gospel. A google search threw up a hell of a lot of options and I'm a little swamped

Good core exercise advice ... STEP AWAY FROM THE BURGER!!!

But seriously, I was advised to keep it simple, don't go doing tons of different exercises or movements - you'll get bored and won't bother with any of it.
Limit your core to 5 or 6 exercises, keeping it short and simple and regular. I find the plank and bridging, leg raises and crunches are the staple part of my routine. I've heard stability ball workouts are the way to go too, but I've not bothered.
I'm no 'core guru' and I definitely don't have a six pack (more like party pack) but I have noticed an improvement in maintaining my running form over the past few weeks.