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Child Item

Why oh why..the angelus?

socio

Can any of you decent, well-informed types tell me why when I listen to RTE radio one I have to listen to the bells of the angelus before the news? RTE is the state broadcaster, for which we all ultimately pay for through licence fees. Given the extraordinarily unhealthy relationship between the Catholic Church and the state in Ireland, shouldn't we be trying to separate the two as much as possible?

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Zombrex

lmaopml wrote: »

You see Wicknight, and with respect, I know you're atheist and don't particularly care for religious programs etc. but it's not really very nice to assign everybody to a 'bygone time', when we're right here posting on the internet..and we're not 'bygone'...! We're right here talking to you... Ta daaa...!:)

But Imaopml you have already said you don't care about RTE showing the Angelus, so I'm obviously not talking about you.

lmaopml wrote: »

Believe it or not, I don't think most Catholics are opposed to this or to facing a future that is fairly inclusive, but it will find it's natural shape.....we're not all 'choir' members...

No big deal...

Exactly, so I'm obviously not talking about you or even "most Catholics". Most Catholics don't give a fig about the Angelus being on TV and wouldn't bat an eye-lid if it was removed.

But some, a small minority, do and they have influence.

lmaopml

Hi Wicknight,

When I mention about RTE not showing the Angelus, I 'meant' it wouldn't matter to the population that adhere to taking that time...there is a vast difference...

...as it stands, there is a population that take that 'time'..We're here talking with you...

Look, I love the idea of freedom and forming a nation that reflects it's people - I just don't like jumping the gun..

I think you may be jumping the gun...and don't represent 'everybody', and I'm happy to let this society take it's shape...I have 'faith'...lol

...perhaps the 'consensus' post earlier in the thread is more note worthy than what it was intended to be, ie 'funny'...

It's a minute of broadcasting time...

Really...???? What does this say..this whole thread................tis mad!

lintdrummer

Does the op think that all references to catholicism should be removed from Irish culture?

Catholicism has a huge part to play in our history and in our culture whether we like it or not. Sure, times have changed and what was once important to almost everyone who had a radio/telly is now just a relic.

But why get rid of it? It's once a day. It can hardly be considered offensive. It only lasts one minute. The fact of the matter is that it's just a bell ringing.

Is the op equally as put out by church bells ringing?

I am sometimes very disheartened by the way this country is going. We have very little pride in ourselves anymore it seems. Why do people feel the need to attack everything these days? You're Irish (I presume), embrace the fact that we have little things like the angelus that are unique to us. It's the little things like that that make me feel Irish. I don't see the angelus as religious when it comes on, I see it as Irish. Without it, the news, as someone else pointed out, wouldn't be the six one. We've all grown up with these little cultural tidbits and to take them away because they aren't PC would just be shameful.

Op, does the angelus really bother you, I mean really bother you? Surely you've got a lot of living to do, why waste your time and energy dwelling on something that, honestly, hardly affects your life in the slightest.

Zombrex

lmaopml wrote: »

Hi Wicknight,

When I mention about RTE not showing the Angelus, I 'meant' it wouldn't matter to the population that adhere to taking that time...there is a vast difference...

...as it stands, there is a population that take that 'time'..We're here talking with you...

I'm not talking about getting rid of the actual practice of the Angelus Imaopml, I'm only talking about the broadcast on RTE.

I think hardly anyone is bothered if you want to take a minute at 6am, noon and again at 6pm to say a devotion.

Equally I think hardly anyone is bothered if RTE don't have a special broadcast for this.

lmaopml wrote: »

Look, I love the idea of freedom and forming a nation that reflects it's people - I just don't like jumping the gun..

Well like I said I found out recently the angelus was only supposed to be on the air for a few weeks during some RCC festival. I hardly think it is jumping the gun to take it off the air 60 years after it was supposed to be taken off the air

In the rest of the word the Angelus is something that is largely only practiced in monasteries or Catholic schools. From what it looks like the intention even when it was first broadcast on RTE was not to turn this into a permanent fixture in Irish life.

The thing is no one seems to care bar a small group of people (which I don't count you in BTW) and the motivation of them seems to stem from fear of modernity than anything else, or at least I've yet to hear an argument to keep the Angelus other than it is already on the air, which seems a rather strange argument suggesting nostalgia rather than purpose.

Zombrex

emmettogara wrote: »

Does the op think that all references to catholicism should be removed from Irish culture?

Catholicism has a huge part to play in our history and in our culture whether we like it or not. Sure, times have changed and what was once important to almost everyone who had a radio/telly is now just a relic.

But why get rid of it? It's once a day. It can hardly be considered offensive. It only lasts one minute. The fact of the matter is that it's just a bell ringing.

Is the op equally as put out by church bells ringing?

I am sometimes very disheartened by the way this country is going. We have very little pride in ourselves anymore it seems. Why do people feel the need to attack everything these days? You're Irish (I presume), embrace the fact that we have little things like the angelus that are unique to us. It's the little things like that that make me feel Irish. I don't see the angelus as religious when it comes on, I see it as Irish. Without it, the news, as someone else pointed out, wouldn't be the six one. We've all grown up with these little cultural tidbits and to take them away because they aren't PC would just be shameful.

Op, does the angelus really bother you, I mean really bother you? Surely you've got a lot of living to do, why waste your time and energy dwelling on something that, honestly, hardly affects your life in the slightest.

Why does the idea of getting rid of it offend you so much?

Is it religious or nostalgic?

Cause I think a lot of the arguments to keep the Angelus are dressed up as religious arguments (serving the religious needs of the population for example) but are actually nostalgic in nature (I don't like the idea of things changing)

Things change, particularly on TV. I know some people get used to stuff but that has never really been a reason in of itself to keep things. If it was Cheers would still be on the air.

socio

emmettogara wrote: »

Does the op think that all references to catholicism should be removed from Irish culture?

Catholicism has a huge part to play in our history and in our culture whether we like it or not. Sure, times have changed and what was once important to almost everyone who had a radio/telly is now just a relic.

But why get rid of it? It's once a day. It can hardly be considered offensive. It only lasts one minute. The fact of the matter is that it's just a bell ringing.

Is the op equally as put out by church bells ringing?

I am sometimes very disheartened by the way this country is going. We have very little pride in ourselves anymore it seems. Why do people feel the need to attack everything these days? You're Irish (I presume), embrace the fact that we have little things like the angelus that are unique to us. It's the little things like that that make me feel Irish. I don't see the angelus as religious when it comes on, I see it as Irish. Without it, the news, as someone else pointed out, wouldn't be the six one. We've all grown up with these little cultural tidbits and to take them away because they aren't PC would just be shameful.

Op, does the angelus really bother you, I mean really bother you? Surely you've got a lot of living to do, why waste your time and energy dwelling on something that, honestly, hardly affects your life in the slightest.

Hi emmettogara. Firstly, I hardly think I've been wasting time on this, merely enjoying an interesting debate.

Look, clearly in and of themselves they are just bells and there are some Catholics and non-Catholics alike who like them and some who find them irritating. But as I mentioned in my first post the greater issue is that like all elements of culture, the angleus carries symbolism. In this case it is the symbolism that Catholicism should occupy a position of priority in Ireland, particularly because it aligned with the state broadcaster.

We are all appalled by the abuse inflicted on children by members of the Catholic Church but it really isn't enough to feel disgusted and try and forget about it. The reason this was allowed to happen is in no small way the result of people not questioning the clergy because they occupy a privileged position in Irish society.

Your attitude of 'We've all grown up with this so why change it' is a major problem in Irish culture. It is the 'don't speak out, don't change, stick with the status quo because that's the way its always been' kind of attitude that led to abuse of children and in more recent times the banking crisis.

Little Jimmy may not actually go to Mass every Sunday but as he grows up the trappings of Catholicism like the angleus create the sense that the Church should be given a level of respect that it does not deserve. And this is important to remove (and can easily be done) becuase while he has every right to engage in Catholicism when he becomes an adult and can decide for himself, no child should grow up believing that the clergy should be respected more than others. We have clearly seen the consequences of this already.

faceman

The biggest irony of this pointless debate of people picking on the angelus is that RTE already have a number of full length religious TV programs that are broadcast regularly or have already run their season this year that the anti Angelus posters havent mentioned:

E.G. iWitness, Would You Believe?, On God's Mission, Songs from the Garden, Spirit Level, Worship.

Even "The Meaning of Life with Gay Byrne" was asking public figures about their spiritual beliefs.

But yeah anyway, if you want to focus on the Angelus for its "offensiveness" then go for it.

Zombrex

faceman wrote: »

The biggest irony of this pointless debate of people picking on the angelus is that RTE already have a number of full length religious TV programs that are broadcast regularly or have already run their season this year that the anti Angelus posters havent mentioned:

E.G. iWitness, Would You Believe?, On God's Mission, Songs from the Garden, Spirit Level, Worship.

Even "The Meaning of Life with Gay Byrne" was asking public figures about their spiritual beliefs.

But yeah anyway, if you want to focus on the Angelus for its "offensiveness" then go for it.

That would only be ironic if people were call for RTE to stop having religious broadcasting, which they aren't as far as I can see.

Given that religious broadcasting on RTE is not under threat the reason people get so worked up over the Angelus being removed is curious to say the least, and makes the claim that without it Catholics won't be served by religious broadcasting seem rather a hollow objection.

Like I asked emmettogara to you feel so strongly about keeping the Angelus due to religious reasons or purely nostalgic reasons?

maggy_thatcher

For those who don't like the bongs on RTÉ before the news, there are a few simple options:

Watch TV3 news at 5:30 instead
Flip over to one of the British channels for the headlines, then switch back
Watch the RTÉ news at 9:00 or 1:00
Use RTÉ player instead of your TV

Personally, I use option (2) in the rare circumstances that I'm home at 6:00, and option (3) more often.

As a child, I always assumed it was just a method of teaching people the 24-hour clock (18-bongs = 18:00), it was much later on that I heard that there was religious doctrine associated with it (I had always thought the 12pm one only had 12 bongs in it...I was very surprised to find it didn't).

The angelus doesn't do any harm - it's watched by some people and ignored by many others - just like virtually every other TV show in the country.

Zombrex

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

For those who don't like the bongs on RTÉ before the news, there are a few simple options:
Watch TV3 news at 5:30 instead

Flip over to one of the British channels for the headlines, then switch back

Watch the RTÉ news at 9:00 or 1:00

Use RTÉ player instead of your TV

Personally, I use option (2) in the rare circumstances that I'm home at 6:00, and option (3) more often.

As a child, I always assumed it was just a method of teaching people the 24-hour clock (18-bongs = 18:00), it was much later on that I heard that there was religious doctrine associated with it (I had always thought the 12pm one only had 12 bongs in it...I was very surprised to find it didn't).

The angelus doesn't do any harm - it's watched by some people and ignored by many others - just like virtually every other TV show in the country.

You say that as if people were panicking as to what to do if they didn't want to watch the Angelus

"OH MY GOD the angelus is on Mary, what do we do"
"I don't know Harry, I just don't know"
"Quick Mary close your eyes, CLOSE YOUR EYES!!"

RTE have wanted to drop the Angelus for a long time. Would you have any objects to them doing this, and if so what would they be?

maggy_thatcher

Wicknight wrote: »

You say that as if people were panicking as to what to do if they didn't want to watch the Angelus

No - It's just my answer to those who say "get rid of the angelus" - my response is - if you don't like it just ignore it (like you do for any other show that you don't like watching). There are enough alternatives.

Wicknight wrote: »

RTE have wanted to drop the Angelus for a long time. Would you have any objects to them doing this, and if so what would they be?

No objections whatsoever...it's just a tv programme, just like Eastenders or Coronation St etc. If the viewing figures don't warrant broadcasting it, then don't broadcast it. If sufficient members of the viewing public want it, then by all means put it on.

Zombrex

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

No - It's just my answer to those who say "get rid of the angelus" - my response is - if you don't like it just ignore it (like you do for any other show that you don't like watching). There are enough alternatives.

Or, you know, we could just get rid of it. That would be easier.

Does anyone here actually object to that

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

No objections whatsoever...it's just a tv programme, just like Eastenders or Coronation St etc. If the viewing figures don't warrant broadcasting it, then don't broadcast it. If sufficient members of the viewing public want it, then by all means put it on.

The viewing figures don't warrant broadcasting it and it breaks RTE's own religious broadcasting standards. The only reason it is kept is because of political reasons.

socio

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

No - It's just my answer to those who say "get rid of the angelus" - my response is - if you don't like it just ignore it .

hmm, yet another of the turn-a-blind-eye brigade.

Agree with wicknight, can anyone give a rational argument as to why we should keep it. All I've heard so far is 'Becuase it's always been that way' type reasons.

Anyone?

Fanny Cradock

socio wrote: »

hmm, yet another of the turn-a-blind-eye brigade.

Agree with wicknight, can anyone give a rational argument as to why we should keep it. All I've heard so far is 'Becuase it's always been that way' type reasons.

Anyone?

Do you believe RTE should provide religious programming?

socio

If there significant demand for it, if it can stand on its own two feet as as programming that generates income for RTE and people actually want to watch/listen to it, then certainly.

Fanny Cradock

socio wrote: »

If there significant demand for it, if it can stand on its own two feet as as programming that generates income for RTE and people actually want to watch/listen to it, then certainly.

I see. So how do you determine what constitutes a significant demand? I assume the figure must be above 320,000 viewers or 20% of total viewer-ship across RTE 1 and 2. And why should a state broadcaster only be interested in profit? I would assume this would mean that programmes that don't produce significant revenue - and I'm going to take a guess here and say that this includes special interest programmes such as Read, Write, Now - should never be produced?

socio

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I see. So how do you determine what constitutes a significant demand? I assume the figure must be above 320,000 viewers or 20% of total viewer-ship across RTE 1 and 2. And why should a state broadcaster only be interested in profit? I would assume this would mean that programmes that don't produce significant revenue - and I'm going to take a guess here and say that this includes special interest programmes such as Read, Write, Now - should never be produced?

Nope. The angleus carries a symbolic meaning and significance that Read, Write, Now clearly doesn't. It's also not a programme. Again you're not explaining why we keep playing it. Merely saying 'well if we get rid of this then why don't we get rid of that' is a fairly weak argument. The point is about the Angelus, not religious or educational programming.

Fanny Cradock

socio wrote: »

Nope. The angleus carries a symbolic meaning and significance that Read, Write, Now clearly doesn't. It's also not a programme. Again you're not explaining why we keep playing it. Merely saying 'well if we get rid of this then why don't we get rid of that' is a fairly weak argument. The point is about the Angelus, not religious or educational programming.

I don't have to defend the Angelus because I'm neither wedded to Catholicism nor am I the one proposing change. I'm trying to understand your reasoning. As a non-Catholic I'm open to the idea that the programme be cut back or made more universal in its appeal. Frankly, you should be trying to convince me. Unfortunately you haven't answered my questions, and to be perfectly honest, after reading one of your previous posts this makes perfect sense. I believe that your reasoning is not out of concern for profit or viewer-ship figures, it is an ideological position you take with regards to the the RCC and possibly religion in general. This is why you are so opposed to symbolism - which is frankly bizarre when RTE are showing programmes that are festooned in symbolic meaning - clumsily insert mention of child abuse in a discussion where it has no place and then go on to redefine the word programme to suit your ends.

Zombrex

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I see. So how do you determine what constitutes a significant demand? I assume the figure must be above 320,000 viewers or 20% of total viewer-ship across RTE 1 and 2. And why should a state broadcaster only be interested in profit? I would assume this would mean that programmes that don't produce significant revenue - and I'm going to take a guess here and say that this includes special interest programmes such as Read, Write, Now - should never be produced?

do you think RTE should determine what consitutes significant demand?

Fanny Cradock

Wicknight wrote: »

do you think RTE should determine what consitutes significant demand?

I don't think "significant" should come into it. That certainly wasn't my criteria as outlined in my previous posts. RTE are there to provide a service to the public. If it was a case of demand determining programming then they may as well only show US imports.

Whynop

Wicknight wrote: »

do you think RTE should determine what consitutes significant demand?

Seeing as you have such a problem with the expression of religion in the public square, perhaps you should make a submission to RTE outlining your ideological views, instead of rambling on here whilst exposing your bigotted anti-theist underbelly.

http://www.rte.ie/about/publicservicestatement.html

Edit: Woops! You're too late to make a submission. Better luck next year

maggy_thatcher

socio wrote: »

hmm, yet another of the turn-a-blind-eye brigade.

No - I treat it exactly the same as I do Coronation Street or whatever other rubbish is on the channels that I don't want to watch. Very few people live in 2-channel land these days, there's plenty of other options. It's a TV programme, nothing more, nothing less.

Zombrex

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I don't think "significant" should come into it. That certainly wasn't my criteria as outlined in my previous posts. RTE are there to provide a service to the public. If it was a case of demand determining programming then they may as well only show US imports.

Ah right. So you think RTE should try as much as possible to cater to all different groups in our community, even if they are not a significant group in terms of viewing figures.

Would you agree then that this is some what difficult to have an inclusive set of religious broadcasting when they promote one particular religious practice to such a place of prominence in their schedules?

Zombrex

Whynop wrote: »

Seeing as you have such a problem with the expression of religion in the public square

I do?

Whynop wrote: »

perhaps you should make a submission to RTE outlining your ideological views, instead of rambling on here whilst exposing your bigotted anti-theist underbelly.

No need. RTE are well aware of the problems, both practical and ideological, of the angelus. They have been trying to get rid of it for decades, but political pressure from certain groups have stopped this.

Zombrex

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

No - I treat it exactly the same as I do Coronation Street or whatever other rubbish is on the channels that I don't want to watch. Very few people live in 2-channel land these days, there's plenty of other options. It's a TV programme, nothing more, nothing less.

Well actually it is a religious broadcast and it is some what getting in the way of RTE producing a uniform inclusive set of religious broadcasts when they are forced due to political pressure to keep one religious broadcast in a particularly privileged place in the scheduling.

faceman

Wicknight wrote: »

Well actually it is a religious broadcast and it is some what getting in the way of RTE producing a uniform inclusive set of religious broadcasts when they are forced due to political pressure to keep one religious broadcast in a particularly privileged place in the scheduling.

There is no talking to you, you're not even listening to what is being said by other posters and, you never will.

socio

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I don't have to defend the Angelus because I'm neither wedded to Catholicism nor am I the one proposing change. I'm trying to understand your reasoning.

OK Fanny, my reasoning, as I have explained already is that there is historically a very unhealthy relationship between the state and the Catholic Church. The angelus is a symbol of this and it occupies a privlileged position on RTE. The consequences of the Catholic Church being privledged have resulted in some horrendous things. So shouldn't we be trying to separate Church and state as much as possible? It is not the same as a radio or tv programme. It is akin to theme music of a radio progamme which frames it. If it were merely a religious programme it could be played at any minute of the day.

Frankly, you should be trying to convince me

.

Well if I haven't done so, my apologies. I was interested in finding out why we continue to play it and so far the only one who has suggested anything that makes sense is wicknight's explanation of political motivations.

it is an ideological position you take with regards to the the RCC and possibly religion in general.

Of course its ideological! Relgion is ideological and my initial post was concerned with the separation of church and state not merely profit seeking.

clumsily insert mention of child abuse in a discussion where it has no place and then go on to redefine the word programme to suit your ends.

With respect, the broader issues such as child-abuse have EVERYTHING to do with this. If any other organisation, lets say a business, was guilty of such atrocities, would we still be systematically being playing their advertisment before the national news broadcast? I would like to think we wouldn't and I would like to think we are decent and caring enough to do the same the Catholic Church.

Zombrex

faceman wrote: »

There is no talking to you, you're not even listening to what is being said by other posters and, you never will.

Good point, well made, bravo :rolleyes:

Fanny Cradock

Wicknight wrote: »

Ah right. So you think RTE should try as much as possible to cater to all different groups in our community, even if they are not a significant group in terms of viewing figures.

Your bull-headed momentum has carried you right by the words of others. I never claimed anything of the sort. But you knew that, right! It's just an underhanded tool you use to make your argument.

Zombrex

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Your bull-headed momentum has carried you right by the words of others. I never claimed anything of the sort. But you knew that, right! It's just an underhanded tool you use to make your argument.

My "bull headed momentum"? wtf?

Why are you getting so annoyed? I'm simply trying to figure out your position? You seem to have no problem asking socio a series of questions to establish his position, I'm merely doing the same.

Do you actually having a position on this issue? You don't think viewing figures should be an issue in deciding the angelus stays on the air? Ok, so what should be the issue?