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What is the Twelfth of July about ?

po020435

Does celebrating the victory of a Dutch King supported by the Pope over a British one have any cultural or religious significance ? Or is it just a day off for the orangemen to wear sashes and union Jack hats, listen to endless reditions of the Sash My Father Wore, get completely wasted with drink and then puke their guts out ?

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pickarooney

I went to Belfast by accident one 12th of July. It was a great weekend - cheap hotel, bars not packed, nice food. I'd recommend it.

Fratton Fred

Elliemental wrote: »

Well, the vast majoraty of English people wouldn't have a clue about the 12th July, or what it means to people here. So you're wrong on that count. It's purely an orangeman's celebration. Apparently, its' about them and their unique culture. To everyone else, its' a pain in the arse.

An Ex of mine was from Galsgow and I was surprised to learn that she was often dressed up and shoved at the front of her local Orange day march. I didn't realise we had orange marches this side of the Irish Sea.:eek:

ejmaztec

Fratton Fred wrote: »

An Ex of mine was from Galsgow and I was surprised to learn that she was often dressed up and shoved at the front of her local Orange day march. I didn't realise we had orange marches this side of the Irish Sea.:eek:

Here's "Bigot Central - Scotland"

http://www.orangeorderscotland.com/

The Order's belief system is Christian, Protestant, patriotic and fraternal. These principles are set out formally in The Qualifications of an Orangeman, an impressive list of good intentions and high ideals. The purpose of the Orange Order can be summarised as:

To Maintain intact the Protestant Constitution and Christian heritage of the United Kingdom.

To cultivate Christian character, promote brotherly love and fellowship.

To expose and resist by all lawful means every system opposed to the mental, political and spiritual freedom of the individual.
The Protestant ethic is one of tolerance of other faiths and ideals. It is this tolerance and liberty that the Orange Order promotes and defends.

bnt

The Protestant ethic is one of tolerance of other faiths and ideals. It is this tolerance and liberty that the Orange Order promotes and defends.

Confused? Read this:

As I entrust these thoughts to you Venerable Brother, I ask you, on the occasion of this Conference, to reaffirm the Catholic Church's strong commitment to work tirelessly for cooperation between peoples, cultures and religions, so that abundant graces and heavenly blessings will descend upon all God's children.

From the Vatican, 4 November 2005

We're talking about Organised Religions here. Each religion is the One True Way, the Bearer of Truth, and each will say whatever it takes for people to believe in it. If you attach your personal happiness and philosophy to any of these rickety old contraptions, you are just begging to be lied to. They're not all the same, but they are all equally mendacious.

When you buy in to the "Catholic vs Protestant" worldview, and pick one side over the other, you are giving credence and legitimacy to both. The only way to break this vicious cycle is for everyone to walk away from organised religions. As long as kids are taught to hate people of other religions alongside their grammar and times tables, that's not going to happen. :mad:

I know this isn't the A&A forum, but when I see people falling for this crap all over again, I have to say something! The only side you need to be on is yours.

ejmaztec

bnt wrote: »

We're talking about Organised Religions here.

I thought that we were talking about the Orange Order here?

Elenxor

the keen edge wrote: »

I once met Iris Robinson.
When I say met, I mean
****
ed her.

She promised me money, I never received it.

Liar!!!!! you are far too old for her!!

Fratton Fred

bnt wrote: »

When you buy in to the "Catholic vs Protestant" worldview, and pick one side over the other, you are giving credence and legitimacy to both. The only way to break this vicious cycle is for everyone to walk away from organised religions. As long as kids are taught to hate people of other religions alongside their grammar and times tables, that's not going to happen. :mad:

Neither Catholicism or Protestantism is a religion. they are both differeing Churches within Christianity.

Further, Protestantism is basically any christian church that is not Roman Catholic or Orthodox.

I attend Church of Ireland services regularly and there is no intolerance preached there, in fact, a lot of the regulars there are Roman catholics who just prefer the CofI service. Further more, I have never felt an outcast from a Roman catholic service for being a prod.

Hatred does not come from the Churches themselves (Although some dont exactly help when they start talking about various churches being "Not proper", Mr Benedict) it comes from different people's interpretation of those teachings. If an organised religion is teaching hatred, then lpersonally i would prefer to be part of it and actively join in the debate to try and change it, than leave.

bnt

ejmaztec wrote: »

I thought that we were talking about the Orange Order here?

The question was "What is the Twelfth of July about ?", and that is my answer to the question. I don't expect everyone to agree, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. IMHO the "Orange Order" is only one symptom of a far greater disease, and you don't cure a disease by just treating the visible symptoms.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Neither Catholicism or Protestantism is a religion. they are both differeing Churches within Christianity.

Further, Protestantism is basically any christian church that is not Roman Catholic or Orthodox.

Depends on who you talk to. There are Protestants in the USA who don't think Catholics are Christians. We can play with words all you like, but I meant what I said.

bernardo mac

Wouldn't mind viewing the spectacle. But, too much bother.Anyway gave up going to the circus long ago

regi

As someone who first learned about this in England - the religious element wasn't considered very important at all.

It was felt that it was worth remembering and celebrating, since it was the last big victory of parliamentary democracy / constitutional monarcy over an absolute 'divine right' despotic King. From the Battle of the Boyne onwards, the UK was unambigously ruled by Parliament, not by the whims of a King/Queen.

King William absolutely understood where his position was with regard to the power wielded by Parliament.

I think that's a fairly important event for that reason - democracy (ok, still quite an elitist early form of democracy) triumphing over an effective dictatorship - and set the scene for much European politic reform in the centuries to come.

Unfortunately, this isn't remembered - today, it seems to be all about the religious aspect, which is just ridiculous in this day and age.

fonecrusher1

regi wrote: »

As someone who first learned about this in England - the religious element wasn't considered very important at all.

It was felt that it was worth remembering and celebrating, since it was the last big victory of parliamentary democracy / constitutional monarcy over an absolute 'divine right' despotic King. From the Battle of the Boyne onwards, the UK was unambigously ruled by Parliament, not by the whims of a King/Queen.

King William absolutely understood where his position was with regard to the power wielded by Parliament.

I think that's a fairly important event for that reason - democracy (ok, still quite an elitist early form of democracy) triumphing over an effective dictatorship - and set the scene for much European politic reform in the centuries to come.

This may be true but regarding the celebration of the 12th of july up north, it has absolutely nothing to with the actual historical importance that you described. Its more about one thing, annoying the sh!t out of the catholics.
And i would say the vast majority of supporters are for want of a better word, thick.

The truth is their own people on the 'mainland' don't know or care about the event & probably cringe when they see them on the news.

Fratton Fred

fonecrusher1 wrote: »

The truth is their own people on the 'mainland' don't know or care about the event & probably cringe when they see them on the news.

OMFG, you used the "M" word :eek:

****s gonna happen now

Elliemental

Fratton Fred wrote: »

An Ex of mine was from Galsgow and I was surprised to learn that she was often dressed up and shoved at the front of her local Orange day march. I didn't realise we had orange marches this side of the Irish Sea.:eek:

I had heard that the Orange Order was big in Scotland, and theres' a crowd from Scotland out there now.

But I have to say, in comparison to other years, the crowds are much smaller (I live on the main parade route in the city center). Nowhere near the crowds that there were a few years ago. I may be being wildly optimistic here, but it could be an early sign of the whole thing dying out?

biko

Raiser wrote: »

Someday there will be be an Orange Plague that only affects the low IQ Queens folk that persist like Pests to plague our Land and we will be free of their horrible taint forever.....

Please refrain from hateful comments like these, they're not helping (neither is marching but someone will have to start, and it will be boards).

davrho

Elliemental wrote: »

I had heard that the Orange Order was big in Scotland, and theres' a crowd from Scotland out there now.

It's really only a West of Scotland problem. Ayrshire,Lanarkshire and Glasgow. They had huge parades last weekend and many of the bands come over for the 12th.

There has been loads of trouble this year in the Scottish marches. Youtube has quite a few clips of them being attacked.

Noreen1

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I attend Church of Ireland services regularly and there is no intolerance preached there, in fact, a lot of the regulars there are Roman catholics who just prefer the CofI service. Further more, I have never felt an outcast from a Roman catholic service for being a prod.

Hatred does not come from the Churches themselves (

+1. Christianity teaches "Love thy Neighbour" - there is no "get-out" clause if your neighbour happens to be a different religion...........

In fact - anyone who uses the Christian faith as an excuse to abuse others (especially in Northern Ireland) - might seriously want to take a long hard look at what their faith preaches.
Hint: Neither church has anything in its teaching that refers to "papists" or "proddies". (hateful terms).

Noreen

Noreen1

davrho wrote: »

It's really only a West of Scotland problem. Ayrshire,Lanarkshire and Glasgow. They had huge parades last weekend and many of the bands come over for the 12th.

There has been loads of trouble this year in the Scottish marches. Youtube has quite a few clips of them being attacked.

In Scotland? Who attacked them, and why?

Noreen

davrho

Noreen1 wrote: »

In Scotland? Who attacked them, and why?

Noreen

You seem suprised that this is going on in Scotland when it happens every year. For the last few years there have been protests against the marches from republican groups and some local communities who don't want the parades on their streets. It has became pretty violent over the last year with several parades being re-routed because of large numbers waitng in the contensious areas.

I can not remember the thread but the violence was discussed last Sunday afternoon on here. The Scottish newspapers had it heavily reported.

There is also lots of pressure being put on the Councils and Police to stop these parades because of the costs. Aberdeen and Perth are no longer having marches because of the trouble. This is just from the community there and nothing to do with Glasgow's more sectarian outlook.

ps I think it was Aberdeen and Perth.

Pittens

i hate the Orange Order, but stop no parades. Re-route maybe. Stop, no.

( Love Ulster should have been re-routed through Dalkey).

Pittens

Fratton Fred wrote: »

OMFG, you used the "M" [MainLand] word :eek:

****s gonna happen now

Reminds me of that famous headline in an English paper.

Fog in Channel. France cut off from Mainland.

Fratton Fred

Pittens wrote: »

i hate the Orange Order, but stop no parades. Re-route maybe. Stop, no.

( Love Ulster should have been re-routed through Dalkey).

No it bloody shouldn't, we don't want those types down our way thank you. We all live very happily in Dalkey thank you very much and the RC and CoI Churches have a very good working relationship. In fact, both regularly hold ecumenical services.

Pittens

yah but the citizens in Dalkey wouldnt have protested. If you ignore the bigotry the Orange Order are guys with flutes.

Fratton Fred

Pittens wrote: »

yah but the citizens in Dalkey wouldnt have protested. If you ignore the bigotry the Orange Order are guys with flutes.

If it had disturbed our Sunday morning Lattes in Mugs we would have. We don't take kindly to that sort of thing.:D

cuppa

And it came to pass they were removed form the usa on the 4th of july ,and arrived in north ireland on the 12th of july ,it was a long band of marching they could not march no more, and hense they still here.

Sofiztikated

Did anyone see the coverage of the 12th on Nuacht? (I do see the irony (is irony the right word?) here)

The bit about the protesters, they had the woman, and that red headed girl? And just behind them, there was that very, VERY dodgy looking young fella with a hoody, just being dodgy.

If you ignore the bit about "The Taigs" and all, the 12th can be a decent day out, the same way you can go to a Gay Pride march, and not have to partake in the bumsecks. But I don't go any more because I couldn't ignore it any longer, and it started bothering me.

That and I don't subscribe to religion any more. Thats generally looked down on. You can be a Protestant, a true blue if you like, a Catholic, a dirty taig, but to be agnostic? Jaysus, thats just not cricket.

Savage Tyrant

Pittens wrote: »

Reminds me of that famous headline in an English paper.

Fog in Channel. France cut off from Mainland.

Actually it was "Fog in Channel, Continent Cut Off"

Pittens

Actually it was "Fog in Channel, Continent Cut Off"

I know, but I was making a joke about the use of the word mainland.

but, carry on.

theparish

Its no different from us down here celebrating St.Patricks great victory over the evil snakes now allowing people to go out in to the fields without having to worry about anti venom.We should have our own lodges who organise marches around the reptile house in Dublin zoo.

redstar6

But if you look at the history behind it, there was no real battles fought up north bu william of orange...I reckon they should come down south for it and see what kinda reception they would get.:D

imme

It´s a commemoration of some 300-year old event in which a British king fought a Dutch one. Today it´s celebrated by some peope in Northern Ireland even though it took place in what is now the Republic of Ireland.

To show some people in NI have a sense of humour, from the Irish Times:

"The Speaker of Northern Ireland’s Assembly, Donegal-born DUP politician Willie Hay, today misses his first Twelfth of July parade in 47 years.
Instead of parading behind the brethren in Portrush, Willie (60) will be honeymooning in the south of France following his wedding on Saturday in Derry.
He married his long-term partner Doris McMorris at Ebrington Presbyterian Church in Derry. “You could say I’ve been rerouted by Doris,” he quipped regarding missing the parade."

The funniest part is probably the name of the bride.