privatebob wrote: » Due to this I voted Green in the last election.
privatebob wrote: » Also I believe that there is a tail wagging the dog process in government at the moment. I am not a FF'er but I truly believe that FF would love to see the back of the green party at this stage
taconnol wrote: » Civil Partnership Bill just passed by the Dail I'd like to see someone complaining that there's more important things to worry about on this one.
The_Minister wrote: » They never ruled out coalition with Fianna Fail - ever.
the article wrote: But although he refused to rule out participation in a future Fianna Fáil-led government, he said most people, not just his party members, are looking for change.
Liam Byrne wrote: » News to me. I must have been asleep when they clarified it pre-election. So if "most people" want change, that's a majority, right ? In a democracy, right ? Therefore - in Sargent's own description - the Greens subverted democracy from day one to get into power and compounded it by voting in favour of NAMA and the bailouts in order to stay there. Not to mention voting confidence in a few dodgy con-men along the way.
Greens will not rule out any party coalition. The leader of the Green Party, Trevor Sargent, has said his party will not be ruling out coalition with any party ahead of a General Election. The party is meeting for a second day in Co Wicklow to consider its strategies for the forthcoming election campaign. Speaking on RTÉ Radio, Mr Sargent said that most Green Party supporters were opposed to the current Fianna Fáil-led Government
hmmm wrote: » .......it makes reasonable debate on their often sensible policies very difficult.
Liam Byrne wrote: » Add in their complete and blatant avoidance of their "polluter pays" idea on some key policies
Scofflaw wrote: » What part of that article is unclear, though?
dynamick wrote: » which policies?
Liam Byrne wrote: » Here's one, anyway :http://www.independent.ie/national-news/440000-must-buy-septic-tank-licence--gormley-1929083.html
Traumadoc wrote: » Clear as mud. the day before:http://www.independent.ie/national-news/unimpressed-greens-snub-overture-from-fianna-fail-82135.htmlhttp://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0807/green.html I was fooled by sargent, he got me good.
dynamick wrote: » You think it's wrong to tax people who defecate into the local water table?
dynamick wrote: » So now, septic tanks will have to be inspected as they are in every other western EU country. Is that a bad thing? What was your alternative? Pay the fines and let people continue to crap in their water supply?
Liam Byrne wrote: » Yes (on the actual principle, not on your ridiculous twist of the facts :rolleyes:). But did you even read my post ? What I said was that their stated objective of "polluter pays" has been abandoned. I've discussed this elsewhere on boards........if it's a serious pollution problem caused by some who don't maintain their tanks then the €5,000 fines will go a long way to paying for the inspections. If 200 people were fined in a year, then that's a million quid; that'll pay for a lot of inspections, fining those who are polluting without punishing those who aren't. My statement that they abandoned the "polluter pays" principle is 100% true and accurate Do you seriously believe that people "crap in their water supply" ? :rolleyes: Anyway, the new water charges will ensure that we're paying for water treatment, so therefore we will also be paying for clean water, separately from the additional taxes on septic tanks.
astrofool wrote: » While other green policy implementations are incompetent at best, the septic tank license/fine is long overdue. The state of the majority of septic tanks in Ireland is absolutely shocking, hopefully the license fee will be used to make sure that each and every one of them is inspected and brought up to standard.
Liam Byrne wrote: » As I said earlier, the Green's claimed mantra is polluter pays, and they are ignoring this to charge everybody. That statement stands as 100% true and accurate.
Agent_47 wrote: » Probably coming into this debate too late but how and ever, I am an advocate of the Polluter (user) pays principle however I do not see Green policy following this through as much as previous Ministers for the Environment have done. Greens are contentious for their flawed ideals translating into flawed policies. I have to site the recent end of life tyres fiasco aired on Pr*** Time recently. The polluter paid in this case alright. In the water charges debate it is currently too cheap for commericial premises to waste thousands of litres of water through leaking pipes and un-metered systems. However Green policy will see residential households metered before tackling commericial entities where large proportions of water are being wasted (for obvious work reasons I cannot elaborate further). DLR Co Co charge as little as 1 euro per 1,000 litres of water approx. There is no incentive to save water at that cost. Don't get me started on waste policy and planning. I have seen nothing on waste policy since the Greens came in, in fact policy in this area has gone backwards. So much so I am seating on the edge of my seat woundering if the waste company we use will appear on Pr*** Time for illegal dumping (of recyclables). Planning is a farce, would dearly love to see the national stats on housing estates to be taken into charge, ticking bomb for county councils who gave the go ahead to build build build. See a application nearby for 700 houses lodged with planning, also see an estate nearby with empty first fix houses built 5 years. Where has the Green focus on jobs for Green economy gone? This is what the man on the street is interested in, not bicycles for inner city commute or stag hunting.
Pushing through the turf ban while Shell is alowed to destroy SHAs and other areas of the Mayo environement has been a disaster.
astrofool wrote: » The state of the majority of septic tanks in Ireland is absolutely shocking
simonj wrote: » But seriously, because of clientism the amount of people here who have shore front property where the grey water goes straight into the sea is shocking. I am not talking a short drain, I am talking a the grey water pipe straight into the sea
simonj wrote: » OK, how about allowing a corporaton to override peoples rights and concerns, allow a corporation to damage an SHA and treat planning laws with contempt, stand by while FF and Dr Woods bail out the church that covered up for child rapists. With regards to the bog, I know Mayor Flannigan in passing, like me he would be an environmentalist. But the NPWS tell us the bog is OK, it is over-ridden by over zealous people Here in Galway the CoCo allowed a quarry - that was subsequently found to be in trespass in the entire area, to claim ownership of several families turbary rights. Let Minister Gormly sort out corruptin in local government, enforce the law that exists, and then start new projects
Liam Byrne wrote: » The state of the majority of septic tanks in Ireland is absolutely shocking I'll give it another day for this statement to be backed up with proof.
The state of the majority of septic tanks in Ireland is absolutely shocking
John Gormley (Minister, Department of Environment, Heritage and Local Government; Dublin South East, Green Party) The European Court of Justice recently ruled that Ireland had failed to fulfil its obligations under Articles 4 and 8 of the 1975 waste directive as regards domestic wastewaters disposed of in the countryside through septic tanks and other individual wastewater treatment systems. The renewed programme for Government includes a commitment to introduce a scheme for the licensing and inspection of septic tanks and other on-site wastewater treatment systems. My Department which has established a task force to consider the matter will develop proposals to give effect to this commitment and respond in full to the court judgment. The Department’s initial assessment is that compliance with the ruling will require new legislation that will set standards for the performance of all individual wastewater treatment systems, provide for periodic inspection by a competent person, establish penalties for non-compliance and provide for corrective measures where a system is found to be defective. My Department is required to submit to the European Commission by the end of December formal proposals on how it proposes to achieve compliance with the judgment and to set out a timeframe for compliance.Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael) I am supportive of anything we can do to improve the quality of groundwater which is in a very poor state in many parts of the country. I draw the Minister’s attention to an excellent report by the Joint Committee on the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. It arises from a number of presentations made by interested parties. Deputy Ciarán Lynch and I participated in the process and are supportive of the outcome which is long overdue. Will the Minister indicate how long it will be before the scheme is rolled out?John Gormley (Minister, Department of Environment, Heritage and Local Government; Dublin South East, Green Party) The task force has approximately two months to produce a set of proposals. It will comprise officials from my Department, the local authorities and the EPA. We must then go through a legislative process. Due to the pressure on us, rightly, because of the severity of the problem, I hope the legislation will be passed within a year. It is absolutely essential. According to the CSO, there are approximately 418,000 septic tanks. I believe that is a conservative estimate because it does not take into account many of the commercial premises and so forth that rely on septic tanks. Many of the septic tanks in place should never have been approved, as the soil conditions were completely wrong. There was a degree of irresponsibility on the part of planners at local authority level. The numbers involved are incredible but we must take this problem in hand. We must have a situation where there is no threat to our groundwater from badly functioning septic tanks.Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour) Deputy Hogan has referred to the work done by the joint committee on this issue. Both he and I were present for a visit to the committee by people involved in the septic tank industry who provided the Department with a report. One of the significant aspects of that report was the call for regulation. We had a bizarre situation where the industry was seeking regulation from the Government. How long has the report been on the Minister’s desk? How long has the industry been seeking regulation? When will it be granted?John Gormley (Minister, Department of Environment, Heritage and Local Government; Dublin South East, Green Party) There is nothing bizarre about the industry seeking regulation as it stands to benefit from such regulation. I have met industry representatives who have shown me the latest equipment, how it functions and how it can be installed quickly in an existing septic tank. There is much innovation in the industry, members of which are delighted that at long last there is a Minister interested in this subject because it has been a problem over successive Administrations. It did not just arise in the last two years or so but has been present for some time and people have failed to tackle it.Phil Hogan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael) Tell everyone that.John Gormley (Minister, Department of Environment, Heritage and Local Government; Dublin South East, Green Party) It is a fact. Various Administrations have failed to tackle the problem, although we have known about it for some time. However, this Government will tackle it. There is a real commitment to doing so. I have given that commitment today and gave it previously in the renewed programme for Government. The report of the joint committee on the issue was good. However, it makes a few recommendations which will not be implemented, one of them being the provision of an incentive through a grant to upgrade tanks. Given the scale of the problem and the number of septic tanks involved, that is not possible.Denis Naughten (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Fine Gael) The Minister has said formal proposals must be submitted to the Commission by the end of the year. Will they be submitted to the Commission, following which legislation will be brought before the House and a gun put to our heads because the Minister will say it has already been agreed with the Commission? Will it be another case of the cart being put before the horse or will we have a direct input into it? What efforts are being made to inform people how they can properly utilise and maintain a septic tank? Basic information is not being provided for the public on the ongoing usage and maintenance of a septic tank. What investment is taking place to develop the technology to install new systems such as seed bacteria or small reed beds that can solve many of these problems cost effectively?John Gormley (Minister, Department of Environment, Heritage and Local Government; Dublin South East, Green Party) I am glad the Deputy has referred to that innovation. I have spoken to people such as Éamon de Buitléar and others who believe we do not need hard engineering solutions but can use the reed bed technologies which work very effectively. It is something we will have to explore to a greater extent, particularly in small connurbations where they can be very effective. To refer to the Deputy’s earlier point, I am not putting a gun to anybody’s head. We have been put under pressure, rightly so, by this court judgment. We must produce legislation. Deputies will have adequate time when the legislation is being debated in the House to make their feelings known and make proposals. That is the proper way to proceed. If the Deputy has ideas, I will be more than happy to discuss them with him if he believes it would be helpful.
Scofflaw wrote: » Given that the EPA Groundwater monitoring programme found 67% of wells and springs to be contaminated by faecal coliforms in 2007-2008, and that the EPA and the Groundwater Section of the Geological Survey of Ireland find septic tanks - well, on-site wastewater treatment systems (OSWTSs) - to be responsible for roughly half that contamination
Scofflaw wrote: » an incentive grant of, say, €500, taken up by 281,000 septic tank owners would cost the state €140m. That's quite a bit of money in the current environment.
