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Is Irish a dead language?

Ciaran_B

Interesting article on insideireland disputing some of the claims about the ‘death’ of the Irish language. I believe it’s the first in a series of articles looking at the various anti-Irish arguments put forward by it’s opponents.

Link

It’s a good read and makes some good points particularly about the levels of Irish in the Gaeltacht.

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pierrot

Regarding the title of your post, definitely not. A language is dead when the last living native speaker of that language dies.
A lot more could be done to encourage the flourishment, rather than prolong the extinction of Irish.

PeterIanStaker

Its not dead, but the Irish media is doing its best to kill it.

gavitron22

didn't get a chance to read the thing, but we were talking about this only today, apart from the fact that it should be known (although the teaching is crap, i studied irish since i was five, took up german five months before the leaving and got two grades higher in german), the lack of a strong knowledge of the fundamentals of irish really inhibits us learning other languages, if you can't even speak your own language your going to find it harder to succesfully take up a different language. also, so many irish people are like it's impractical to learn more languages, it's such a cop out, i'm visiting my brother in an interenational college, and the average number of languages spoken FLUENTLY in three, and in the last day, i've met two people two spoke 7 languages fluently. and i can hardly speak bloody english. we need to reevaluate all this, begining with reevaluating how important irish is to our culture, heritage, and ability to progress, and that is paramount.

/rant

eddyc

Compulsion is one of the worst things to have ever happened to the Irish language. Compelling people to learn it makes people sick of it. Not to mention the terrible way in which it is thought.
Irish Music, another part of the former dominant culture of this island, is absolutely thriving, so are the Gaelic games. People love them, people love Irish Music internationally also. I think it would be different if people were compelled to do them by setting up artificial barriers to third level education, and gaining employment in certain public sector institutions where the Irish language is almost never used.
I personally don't feel its part of my culture, I was born in Ireland, but I'm an English speaking Irish person among many other things. I feel no need to learn Irish.
That being said I support the Government promoting the language and that people should be given the opportunity to learn it if they like.

dlofnep

The Irish language isn't dead. It's just not as prevelvant in society as it should be, which is largely attributed to the poor curriculum in school. Lack of fluent speakers will obviously impact it's visibility in society.

Wolfe Tone

which is largely attributed to the poor curriculum in school.

As someone who has recently finished school I can attest to this. These days Irish in secondary schools literally consists of being handed reams of notes on ridiculous poems and literally learning off answers. Ditto with topics for essays. I was hopeless with Irish for years and for my JC I wrote pages of answers that I learnt off by heart without understanding them. I got a B.

However with the oral for my leaving cert I decided to actually learn to be able to hold even a basic conversation. I went to the Gaeltacht and , among other things, actually spoke the language. I learnt more Irish there than in the previous ten years. Also, for the 6 months before my leaving I attended one hour Irish "grinds" were for an hour each week I just chatted away in Irish. I wish I had of done it earlier. For my leaving cert I had a much better understanding of basic Irish and did pretty well in my Oral and Aural. However I neglected, didn't have time, to devote as much energy to learning things off by rote for the poetry, play etc, so I believe I have done worse than in my JC. There needs to be much more emphasis on actually speaking the language. You don't teach English by teaching people Yeats and Shakespeare. I LOATHED Irish for years, however once I actually started speaking it I enjoyed it, and now intend to join an Irish speaking society in Uni. There is way too much on the course to devote any more than a single class a week to practicing for the oral and aural.

If I was in charge I would change the course dramatically, drop the vast majority of literature and have the exam consist of writing a personal essay, some comprehensions, an extensive aural and a extensive aural. Leave literature to 3rd level.

Coillte_Bhoy

PeterIanStaker wrote: »

Its not dead, but the Irish media is doing its best to kill it.

Ya, blame the media. Do you inckude Tg4, and R na G, in this or any of the Irish language newspapers and magazines? Talk about a sweeping generalisation.:rolleyes:

gbee

gavitron22 wrote: »

and i can hardly speak bloody english. we need to reevaluate all this, /rant

Absolutely. Only English should be taught in school until the age of 12. At that level the English should be at what university level is today.

Then, once the student is fully aware of all the rules and their, they're, its it's etc and spelling and only then should a new language be introduced.

I personally believe that Irish is responsible for the low level of education in Ireland, in the languages as one rule in Irish is often the opposite in English ~ you know, once you get used to being confused as child, you'll never grow out of it as an adult.

Bebs

I think they need to ditch the written aspects of it and focus on teaching people to speak it. Primary school is the first and biggest in a serious of **** ups in how it's taught. Children should leave primary school fluent. So much time is spent on the language in both primary and secondary and as a nation we've feck all to show for the investment.

People need to lose the patriotic hard on they get when it comes to Irish and treat it as you would German or Spanish. That sense of misguided patriotism is an obstacle to reforming the language.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Not quite dead but not far off it. It seems to be slowly increasing in popularity though, especially in the north.

Think they should just have all primary schools taught as gaelige and make it optional after that. I think it would lead to people becoming fluent in more languages as being bi-lingual would increase their language confidence

Bebs

I don't think every primary school should be teaching in Irish. I think there should be more Irish spoken on a day to day basis but I don't think it should be to the exclusion of English which is our primary language.

It's not just up to schools. Parents need to encourage the speaking of Irish in the homes too.

Rebelheart

gbee wrote: »

I personally believe that Irish is responsible for the low level of education in Ireland.

Sweet Jesus. :rolleyes: How about lazy knacker-arsed auld pairs breeding lazy knacker-arsed scumbag kids who haven't a hope because mammy and daddy of Lazyarse land don't devote the time and thought to helping their kids with their work every day and check on their progress at every turn and do everything in their power to help their kids excel in school. The basics of good parentage, in other words.

Far better to blame their own lazy, lazy shít on something or somebody else than take responsibility for it. The scapegoat crap which all losers use to comfort themselves. Pathetic.

MysticalRain

eddyc wrote: »

Compulsion is one of the worst things to have ever happened to the Irish language. Compelling people to learn it makes people sick of it.

The funny little irony here is that those who love the language the most have done more to destroy the language than anybody else with their misguided attempts to shove the language down people's throats.

gbee

Rebelheart wrote: »

Sweet Jesus. :rolleyes: Far better to blame their own lazy, lazy shít on something or somebody Pathetic.

I'll throw in here the report into the University qualifications which highlighted the low level of education, bad grammar, poor spelling lack of fluency ~ now more or less the people in YOUR reply don't go to university.

gbee

MysticalRain wrote: »

The funny little irony here is that those who love the language the most have done more to destroy the language than anybody else with their misguided attempts to shove the language down people's throats.

And they are very militant, blacking out road signs, arbitrarily changing names, giving children in Gael Scoilanna Irish names, and not allowing them to use the names their parents gave them and their LEGAL names as on their birth certs.

Iwasfrozen

Ciaran_B wrote: »

Interesting article on insideireland disputing some of the claims about the ‘death’ of the Irish language. I believe it’s the first in a series of articles looking at the various anti-Irish arguments put forward by it’s opponents.

Link

It’s a good read and makes some good points particularly about the levels of Irish in the Gaeltacht.

I really don't see why people think this is a problem.

dlofnep

gbee wrote: »

And they are very militant, blacking out road signs, arbitrarily changing names, giving children in Gael Scoilanna Irish names, and not allowing them to use the names their parents gave them and their LEGAL names as on their birth certs.

Jesus christ. :rolleyes:

Irish language enthusiasts by large, are not militant. What names exactly are they arbitrarily changing?

I think you'll find that children are giving Irish names in not only Gaelscoileanna. I attended a national school, and our register was called in Irish. Moreover, no teacher is stopping anyone from using their English name. The custom of using Irish names is purely symbolic, and not the fascist as you would have us believe.

What a load of utter nonsense.

paky

the irish language is as dead as it will ever be. just because people speak it in school doesnt mean its alive. its like having a dead person on a life support machine :pac:

dlofnep

paky wrote: »

the irish language is as dead as it will ever be. just because people speak it in school doesnt mean its alive. its like having a dead person on a life support machine :pac:

It is not dead.
No matter how many times you say that it's dead, it will not make it anymore true.
it is spoken outside of school. I myself speak Irish daily.

Do you actually know what language death is?

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

I think you'll find that children are giving Irish names in not only Gaelscoileanna. I attended a national school, and our register was called in Irish. Moreover, no teacher is stopping anyone from using their English name. The custom of using Irish names is purely symbolic, and not the fascist as you would have us believe.

Symbolic of what?

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

It is not dead.

No matter how many times you say that it's dead, it will not make it anymore true.

it is spoken outside of school. I myself speak Irish daily.

Do you actually know what language death is?

A brain dead person is not dead but is being kept alive by a life support machine. Irish is a brain dead language because it is not dead but is kept alive by a life support machine. In this case the government.

paky

dlofnep wrote: »

It is not dead.

No matter how many times you say that it's dead, it will not make it anymore true.

it is spoken outside of school. I myself speak Irish daily.

Do you actually know what language death is?

no what language is death?

fontanalis

I can't wait until it's gone, then the celts can be considered dead!!

dlofnep

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Symbolic of what?

I don't answer stupid questions. This will be no different.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

A brain dead person is not dead but is being kept alive by a life support machine. Irish is a brain dead language because it is not dead but is kept alive by a life support machine. In this case the government.

I'm not interested if you think it's on life support or not. There are over 100,000 people who use the language outside of schools or work on a weekly basis. On that basis alone, it is not dead.

Of course it is supported by the Government. It is an official language. All official languages around the world are supported by their respective Governments - many countries having more than 3 languages. You're not bringing anything new to the debate.

dory

gbee wrote: »

Absolutely. Only English should be taught in school until the age of 12. At that level the English should be at what university level is today.

Are you well? Countries with kids who only learn their own language in primary school are the ones in which the adults only speak one language. We should be aiming to copy Denmark, Holland and co. not the others!

dlofnep

paky wrote: »

no what language is death?

It occurs when no native speakers of a language exist. This cannot be said for the Irish language, therefore it is not dead. People who claim that it's a dead language, are trying to invoke emotions out of it's supporters.

And if the language is dead, then why use the Irish language version of Belfast for your location? A bit hypocritical is it not?

uvox

It isn't dead. Any let's stop this bollocks about Irish language zealots and their confederates in the public sector and government calling the shots as far as language sustainability is concerned - they're not, so let's not give them the impression they are.

In fact there is no such thing as a single Irish language anyway, and we're seeing the emergences of a real Pidgin amongst urban speakers - they are the ones driving the language forward - not the Eamon O'Cuiv's of the world. Forget about the Gaelteacht (total pop 90K) as a viable source for a living language:

"The number of Irish speakers in Ireland is increasing, according to all census and survey data, and yet the number of Gaeltacht speakers is falling."

You can read more here: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2010/0116/1224262447899.html

"Urban Irish doesn’t seem to be actually Anglicising, but it is different, particularly in the area of grammar. Some experts might be tempted to call this new entity a Pidgin. Although the term has negative connotations, there is some justification for it. A Pidgin is a relatively unstable language with simplified pronunciation and grammar, created on the fly for purposes of practical communication. By definition, it has no native speakers. Should the Pidgin persist into another generation and further, it gains native speakers, becomes known as a Creole, and develops the hallmarks of an independent language, including a stable grammar."

Hardly dead. More like still evolving. So....

dlofnep

fontanalis wrote: »

I can't wait until it's gone, then the celts can be considered dead!!

What are you harping on about?

CoalBucket

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

As someone who has recently finished school I can attest to this. These days Irish in secondary schools literally consists of being handed reams of notes on ridiculous poems and literally learning off answers. Ditto with topics for essays. I was hopeless with Irish for years and for my JC I wrote pages of answers that I learnt off by heart without understanding them. I got a B.

I largely agree with your point about the way Irish is taught, however I think the problem is with the way every subject is taught. It's been a while since my leaving but I can remember just learning off reams of info for every subject rather than actually studying a subject in the traditional sense.

paky

dlofnep wrote: »

It occurs when no native speakers of a language exist. This cannot be said for the Irish language, therefore it is not dead. People who claim that it's a dead language, are trying to invoke emotions out of it's supporters.

And if the language is dead, then why use the Irish language version of Belfast for your location? A bit hypocritical is it not?

wow a 100,000 people? what a waste of money and time the last 90 years have been.

do people speak more or less irish since it became compulsory?