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2010 Dublin Marathon- Sub 3 mentored thread

ecoli

Okay I have been approached about setting up a sub 3 mentoring thread. Before i start to issue clarification this thread is alot like Lynx ads. Just because links ads say Lynx will get you beautiful women doesnt make it a certainty. Likewise here the aim is to do are best to get you to 2.5X.XX but I cannot guarantee it.

This is geared towards the DCM and is a 18 week plan starting at 40 miles with a 4 week buildling phase getting up to 65 miles during course of plan. The plan includes 1 long run (15-20) one medium length (10-13) and culmination of hill work and marathon specific sessions @ MP and HMP

The plan will start 21st of June so anyone who is interested should be trying to hit around 40 miles coming into the plan however the fact that the first four weeks is base building gives people a chance to catch up. Anyone interested in following the plan put your name down and get to know each other. The idea behind these mentoring threads is not just to provide a training plan but also i full support in terms of encouragement and advice. I will also be here to answer questions as best i can and hopefully get a few of the Sub 3 guys from this forum to give there only insight and advice.

So put your name down and your previous best and Lets get to work:D

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donothoponpop

Week 2 Summary
Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|Tue 9 @ 7:50; Wed 6 @ 7:15 + 8x100m strides|16| 60
smmoore79| 3.10|||
Speedy44|3:26|||
kaymin|n/a|||
ELFOYZER|3.29|9M easy(?)~7:45/mile;6M steady~7:15/mile+6x100m str|15|
cunavalos|n/a|||
Schnellimbiss |n/a|8 miles easy; 6 miles steady + 6 x100m strides|14|

Happy to rest on Mon. Tues run went well, had to keep the pace down, one of those runs you just want to keep on keeping on. Wed, 6 miles, first was slower, but sped up as the run went on, and each one faster, although the effort didn't increase. Wasn't sure if it was 6 or 8 strides, so I erred on the side of caution:)

donothoponpop

Week 2 Summary
Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|9 @ 7:50; 6 @ 7:15 + 8x100m strides; 10 miles@ 8:15|26| 70
smmoore79| 3.10|||
Speedy44|3:26|||
kaymin|n/a|||
ELFOYZER|3.29|9M easy(?)~7:45/mile;6M steady~7:15/mile+6x100m str|15|
cunavalos|n/a|||
Schnellimbiss |n/a|8 miles easy; 6 miles steady + 6 x100m strides|14|

Got Thurs session done early this morning- will do 4 easy tonight.

Can I get a bit of guidance- the 10 easy were very easy- slower than I would have run easy miles at before. I read a lot about how a lot of marathoners need to run their hard sessions harder, and their easy sessions easier- certainly a lot of training logs of fast marathoners on the forum show them running easy miles at a very slow pace. I'd be interested in any comments, because this method is new to me (I'd be "no pain no gain" school previously).

smmoore79

donothoponpop wrote: »

Week 2 Summary

9 @ 7:50; 6 @ 7:15 + 8x100m strides; 10 miles@ 8:15|26| 70

Got Thurs session done early this morning- will do 4 easy tonight.

Can I get a bit of guidance- the 10 easy were very easy- slower than I would have run easy miles at before. I read a lot about how a lot of marathoners need to run their hard sessions harder, and their easy sessions easier- certainly a lot of training logs of fast marathoners on the forum show them running easy miles at a very slow pace. I'd be interested in any comments, because this method is new to me (I'd be "no pain no gain" school previously).

Im kinda new to this pacing thing myself so invested in PD advanced marathoning. Looking at your training, those 3 sessions look like hard sessions. That 10 miler at 8 15 pace seems a tad slow to me alright, id run that at 7 40. For me an easy session would be a recovery run of 4/5 miles at 8 minute pace. Midweek aerobic runs (runs of 8 to 10ish miles) are done at 7 40 pace and Sunday long runs are done at 7 25-30 pace. Sometimes my plan asks for some miles to be at marathon pace (6 40) and other runs at half marathon pace (6 mins). Not sure if your plan incorporates the same..

donothoponpop

smmoore79 wrote: »

Im kinda new to this pacing thing myself so invested in PD advanced marathoning. Looking at your training, those 3 sessions look like hard sessions. That 10 miler at 8 15 pace seems a tad slow to me alright, id run that at 7 40. For me an easy session would be a recovery run of 4/5 miles at 8 minute pace. Midweek aerobic runs (runs of 8 to 10ish miles) are done at 7 40 pace and Sunday long runs are done at 7 25-30 pace. Sometimes my plan asks for some miles to be at marathon pace (6 40) and other runs at half marathon pace (6 mins). Not sure if your plan incorporates the same..

Thanks for the reply. I followed P&D 70 miles (PMP 6:50) last time round, and indeed would have run the "easy" runs about 7:30-7:40. Now I'm running them 8:00-8:15, it certainly feels "too slow", but I think the idea is to compensate by running the hard sessions hard. I know there's no one-size-fits-all plan, but a common factor in a lot of 2:40-3:00 marathoners I know is their surprisingly "slow" easy runs.

smmoore79

donothoponpop wrote: »

Thanks for the reply. I followed P&D 70 miles (PMP 6:50) last time round, and indeed would have run the "easy" runs about 7:30-7:40. Now I'm running them 8:00-8:15, it certainly feels "too slow", but I think the idea is to compensate by running the hard sessions hard. I know there's no one-size-fits-all plan, but a common factor in a lot of 2:40-3:00 marathoners I know is their surprisingly "slow" easy runs.

Yeah, Its weird for me too to be running 8 minute miles. Though, it takes just as much discipline to remain steady at a 'slow' pace. But they're on the plans for a reason i suppose, apparently it aids with getting rid of the lactic acid from hard runs.

ecoli

Because it is early in the plan you will find that you need the slower runs to recover from the harder sessions which will soon be added. You will also find that as the plan goes on your general fitness will mean that these paces actually drop and your easy paces will gradually become faster.

To answer the other question there are a good bit of MP and HMP based sessions and as such these will be the sessions for stressing the body and the easier miles will allow the body to recover some what and adapt

ELFOYZER

I've been struggling with what should be 'Easy' and 'STEADY' pace.
I calculated my easy and steady paces from the guide by working back from 6:50/mile,

Recovery run :1 min to 1 min 30 slower than MP = 7:50 - 8:20
Easy Run: 30 secs to 50 secs slower than MP = 7:20 - 7:40
Steady Run: 15 - 30 sec slower than MP = 7:05 - 7:20
So far my pace as been as follows,
EASY PACE = 7:45 to 8:00/ mile (Percieved Effort = 6/10)
STEADY PACE= 7:15 - 7:20/mile (Percieved Effort = 7to8/10)

I'm running a bit slower than what was outlined. I seem to be running Easy at Recovery pace and am just bordering on the Steady paced runs.

I know that within the remaining 16 weeks or so my paces will drop. That said, I'm hoping that I'll improve enough over that period once I stay loose and injury free.
McMillan predictor suggests that I am on for a 3:10 to 3:15 marathon, depending what result I put in. But I'm wondering is it possible to improve to sub 3 over an 18 week period???

Any comments or suggestions, please?

smmoore79

ELFOYZER wrote: »

I've been struggling with what should be 'Easy' and 'STEADY' pace.
I calculated my easy and steady paces from the guide by working back from 6:50/mile,

Recovery run :1 min to 1 min 30 slower than MP = 7:50 - 8:20
Easy Run: 30 secs to 50 secs slower than MP = 7:20 - 7:40
Steady Run: 15 - 30 sec slower than MP = 7:05 - 7:20
So far my pace as been as follows,
EASY PACE = 7:45 to 8:00/ mile (Percieved Effort = 6/10)
STEADY PACE= 7:15 - 7:20/mile (Percieved Effort = 7to8/10)

QUOTE]

Those paces seem about correct for a sub 3 marathon. And if youre doing an advanced program, then midweek runs will have some speedwork (10 x 100m or medium runs with some miles at half marathon pace). And some of your Sunday long runs will have a certain amount at marathon pace..

ecoli

ELFOYZER wrote: »

I've been struggling with what should be 'Easy' and 'STEADY' pace.
I calculated my easy and steady paces from the guide by working back from 6:50/mile,

Recovery run :1 min to 1 min 30 slower than MP = 7:50 - 8:20
Easy Run: 30 secs to 50 secs slower than MP = 7:20 - 7:40
Steady Run: 15 - 30 sec slower than MP = 7:05 - 7:20
So far my pace as been as follows,
EASY PACE = 7:45 to 8:00/ mile (Percieved Effort = 6/10)
STEADY PACE= 7:15 - 7:20/mile (Percieved Effort = 7to8/10)

I'm running a bit slower than what was outlined. I seem to be running Easy at Recovery pace and am just bordering on the Steady paced runs.

I know that within the remaining 16 weeks or so my paces will drop. That said, I'm hoping that I'll improve enough over that period once I stay loose and injury free.
McMillan predictor suggests that I am on for a 3:10 to 3:15 marathon, depending what result I put in. But I'm wondering is it possible to improve to sub 3 over an 18 week period???

Any comments or suggestions, please?

Again be sensible some people run there mileage a little slower than others this can be ok the main thing is effort. These are more guidelines and being there or there abouts is okay as long as your not pushing it. Just be sure to take the difference into account on your recovery runs these should not be the same pace as your easy runs so perhaps around 8.10-8.40
The easy runs are providing the strength to be able to tackle the sessions which are going to be introduced over the next two weeks. It is these sessions which will provide significant improvement. The easy miles are important to provide the strength to go injury free (hopefully) through the training plan.
Like Smoore79 said there will be sessions including Marathon pace running and half marathon paced running comming soon but jumping into these too soon would only increase the risk of injury especially with the building of mileage

tisnotover

ELFOYZER wrote: »

McMillan predictor suggests that I am on for a 3:10 to 3:15 marathon, depending what result I put in. But I'm wondering is it possible to improve to sub 3 over an 18 week period???

Any comments or suggestions, please?

Whats your most recent race time ? did you use this in mcmillan ? One thing I would say, is that you shouldn't have to push pace on a steady run.

You need your energy for other more demanding runs in the schedule like marathon paced miles or track-work.

do you wear a heart-rate monitor ? As this will give you an idea of wheter your pushing too hard or not on these runs...

ELFOYZER

tisnotover wrote: »

Whats your most recent race time ? did you use this in mcmillan ? One thing I would say, is that you shouldn't have to push pace on a steady run.

You need your energy for other more demanding runs in the schedule like marathon paced miles or track-work.

do you wear a heart-rate monitor ? As this will give you an idea of wheter your pushing too hard or not on these runs...

TNO - Yep, I used McMillan predictor. In spite of the mileage increase I dont feel fatigued or worn out, and on steady runs I don't feel that I am 'pushing' pace, it does require a fair effort but I'm sure the effort will lessen as my conditioning improves.

Some of my HR readings, 8min/mile ~ 155bpm; 7:15/mile ~ 167bpm*
(*This was my avg hr on my 3:29 Marathon, so I reckon I've improved by 10bpm @ 8:00/mile pace:D)
I'm 38 year old male but I've never based HR zoning on 220-age,etc. In fact, I just throw the occasional eye on the readings.
I feel I should mention, I've a couple of lbs to loose too (6-7lbs in fact), to reach my desired race weight. Not stressing about this as it will fall off me in the coming weeks.
I'm positive and well up for this, but I want to be sensible about it too.
Appreciate and welcome all your comments, thanks.

bart simpson

ELFOYZER wrote: »

I've been struggling with what should be 'Easy' and 'STEADY' pace.
I calculated my easy and steady paces from the guide by working back from 6:50/mile,

Recovery run :1 min to 1 min 30 slower than MP = 7:50 - 8:20
Easy Run: 30 secs to 50 secs slower than MP = 7:20 - 7:40
Steady Run: 15 - 30 sec slower than MP = 7:05 - 7:20
So far my pace as been as follows,
EASY PACE = 7:45 to 8:00/ mile (Percieved Effort = 6/10)
STEADY PACE= 7:15 - 7:20/mile (Percieved Effort = 7to8/10)

I'm running a bit slower than what was outlined. I seem to be running Easy at Recovery pace and am just bordering on the Steady paced runs.

I know that within the remaining 16 weeks or so my paces will drop. That said, I'm hoping that I'll improve enough over that period once I stay loose and injury free.
McMillan predictor suggests that I am on for a 3:10 to 3:15 marathon, depending what result I put in. But I'm wondering is it possible to improve to sub 3 over an 18 week period???

Any comments or suggestions, please?

aint no expert by any means... im kinda in the same boat as you, i did dcm last year in 3.29, and on my ballycotton time mc millian predicts for me a 3.10-3.15 marathon this year.....but the way i read it is that if i train as well as i could over 18 week period that is what my predicted time would be....not what my time would be if i ran a marathon the day i entered it in mc millian... ie to match a 10K 10M or half marthon time with your mc millian marathon prediction time you will need to do a hell of a lot of improving just to meet your predicted time
well thats the way i saw it anyway, might be wrong, good luck with the training

ELFOYZER

Hey BS, that's what I took from the calculator/ predictor tool too, but then again it's only an estimate.
If I had put my race times then into the calculator I would have predicted ~3:45 marathon when I ran the 3:29.
Hard work, dedication, some weight loss and positive thinking - who know's what is possible?;)

ecoli

ELFOYZER wrote: »

Hey BS, that's what I took from the calculator/ predictor tool too, but then again it's only an estimate.
If I had put my race times then into the calculator I would have predicted ~3:45 marathon when I ran the 3:29.
Hard work, dedication, some weight loss and positive thinking - who know's what is possible?;)

By the time this training plan is over i expect athletes to be able to eat lightning, crap thunder and run like the wind (a plus wind of course none of that headwind stuff that slows them sprinters down);)

tisnotover

bart simpson wrote: »

aint no expert by any means... im kinda in the same boat as you, i did dcm last year in 3.29, and on my ballycotton time mc millian predicts for me a 3.10-3.15 marathon this year.....but the way i read it is that if i train as well as i could over 18 week period that is what my predicted time would be....not what my time would be if i ran a marathon the day i entered it in mc millian... ie to match a 10K 10M or half marthon time with your mc millian marathon prediction time you will need to do a hell of a lot of improving just to meet your predicted time
well thats the way i saw it anyway, might be wrong, good luck with the training

Its the approach I took BS. Racing during the marathon program will show your times improving at other distances, especially for the half. But there was no way I was going out at the equivalent half-predicted marathon-pace on race-day.

Thats only me agreeing with ya, others I know have done the opposite and with success, but I'd be in the more conservative camp*

* applicable to marathon running only.

bart simpson

ELFOYZER wrote: »

Hey BS, that's what I took from the calculator/ predictor tool too, but then again it's only an estimate.
If I had put my race times then into the calculator I would have predicted ~3:45 marathon when I ran the 3:29.
Hard work, dedication, some weight loss and positive thinking - who know's what is possible?;)

yeah you are right, dont get me wrong i aint saying you cant by any means....sure loads have made that jump, i am the cautious kind and would be paranoid about getting injured, but thats just me...i wouldnt have the greatest recovery powers in the world either!

ecoli

Week 2 Summary
Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|||
smmoore79| 3.10|||
Speedy44|3:26|||
kaymin|n/a|||
ELFOYZER|3.29|||
cunavalos|n/a|||
Schnellimbiss |n/a|||

How did people get on this week. Bit of a jump in mileage this week jumpin to nearly fifty. Next week will be similar enough without a increase in mileage to. Be interested to get some feedback on what people thinking so far and how they are getting on?

Will post the plan for next week later this evening

ecoli

Here is this weeks schedule

Week 3
Mon Rest
Tues 8 Miles (easy)
Wed 7 miles (steady) + 4x200
Thurs 10 miles (easy)
Fri 4 miles easy
Sat 8 miles fartlek (10 min easy, 10 min steady repeated)
Sun 14 miles easy

Regarding the Fartlek on sat i have set these at ten min but they can be anythin between 5-15 min the main thing is that the easy and steady paced time periods are equal

Also i am going to start bringing in a topic of discussion for each week. I will not post about it myself until the end of the week to give people a chance to put there idea's and opinions out there in order to gain insight into not just training but also other aspects of running often neglected by people (nutrition, stretching etc).
If anyone has a topic they want to bring up be my guest i will leave it open till monday after this if no one has any i will post one to get the ball rolling

donothoponpop

ecoli wrote: »

Regarding the Fartlek on sat i have set these at ten min but they can be anythin between 5-15 min the main thing is that the easy and steady paced time periods are equal

Also i am going to start bringing in a topic of discussion for each week. I will not post about it myself until the end of the week to give people a chance to put there idea's and opinions out there in order to gain insight into not just training but also other aspects of running often neglected by people (nutrition, stretching etc).
If anyone has a topic they want to bring up be my guest i will leave it open till monday after this if no one has any i will post one to get the ball rolling

Can I suggest we discuss fartlek this week, seeing as it will be introduced?

I've always found fartlek very useful in training, and a great way to break up the monotony of the training week. My own understanding of it would include a couple of easy miles, followed by a mash of runs, including steady runs of <10 mins, or 800m fast, 200m strides (usually to a tree of other marker), maybe some hard fast uphills. Running between these bursts would be done at recovery pace. A lot of my running is done on trail and forest, which is ideal for the variety of distances/courses this "speed-play" warrants. I've always found a big improvement in fitness after a few weeks which include fartlek (specifically in recovery), and if you can do them with a partner, I'd highly recommend doing that. Couple of miles recovery at the end.

ELFOYZER

Week 2 Summary
Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|9 easy, 6 steady + strides, 10 easy, 16 easy|42|86
smmoore79| 3.10|||
Speedy44|3:26|||
kaymin|n/a|||
ELFOYZER|3.29|12|52|100
cunavalos|n/a|||
Schnellimbiss |n/a|||

Hey Coach,

Just in from my Sunday run, Week 2 went as follows -
Monday - REST (core/stretch 40 mins)
Tuesday - 9mile easy
Wednesday - 6 mile steady + 6x100mtr; Stretch/Core - 20 min
(twigged something in my knee, nothing serious but decided to continue with remainder of week, icing and strapping - worked out grand:D, phew!)
Thursday - 10 mile easy
Friday - 4 mile recovery; core/ stretch - 20 mins.
Saturday - 14.5 miles easy(Had to do long run today - with the knee doubtful I ran for a bit longer than sheduled on a slightly flatter course)
Sunday - 8.5 miles easy.
Total = 52 miles this week, wanted to hit the 100 miles for the two weeks. Looking back, the max weekly mileage I ever hit in my previous training was 39 miles, big step up for me but feeling reasonably well on it.
Looking forward to next weeks schedule but may have to tweak it a bit as I have a lot on this coming week.

ELFOYZER

donothoponpop wrote: »

Can I suggest we discuss fartlek this week, seeing as it will be introduced?

I've always found fartlek very useful in training, and a great way to break up the monotony of the training week. My own understanding of it would include a couple of easy miles, followed by a mash of runs, including steady runs of <10 mins, or 800m fast, 200m strides (usually to a tree of other marker), maybe some hard fast uphills. Running between these bursts would be done at recovery pace. A lot of my running is done on trail and forest, which is ideal for the variety of distances/courses this "speed-play" warrants. I've always found a big improvement in fitness after a few weeks which include fartlek (specifically in recovery), and if you can do them with a partner, I'd highly recommend doing that. Couple of miles recovery at the end.

Hey D,
great morning fpr running alright, refreshing change from the heat and pollen!

I've never ran a fartlek session, ever. I did on one or two occasions sprint to the next lamp post with a friend on a run, just for craic. Looking forward to it and will definitely mix it up as you suggested, thats if its ok with EC.

ecoli

Right so topic for this week is Fartlek so i will leave it open to people for the week

The only thing i will say regarding the session planned is you are still in base building phase and as such rather than burst/recovery i would like it to be between easy/steady paces so it is staying in the aerobic development zone and is not exactly working other systems. This is introduced more so to break up the monotony and have a bit of fun with the training.

ecoli

ELFOYZER wrote: »

Week 2 Summary
Name|Previous best |No. of Sessions completed|Mileage this week | Total Mileage to date |
donothoponpop|3:10|9 easy, 6 steady + strides, 10 easy, 16 easy|42|86
smmoore79| 3.10|||
Speedy44|3:26|||
kaymin|n/a|||
ELFOYZER|3.29|12|52|100
cunavalos|n/a|||
Schnellimbiss |n/a|||

Hey Coach,

Just in from my Sunday run, Week 2 went as follows -
Monday - REST (core/stretch 40 mins)
Tuesday - 9mile easy
Wednesday - 6 mile steady + 6x100mtr; Stretch/Core - 20 min
(twigged something in my knee, nothing serious but decided to continue with remainder of week, icing and strapping - worked out grand:D, phew!)
Thursday - 10 mile easy
Friday - 4 mile recovery; core/ stretch - 20 mins.
Saturday - 14.5 miles easy(Had to do long run today - with the knee doubtful I ran for a bit longer than sheduled on a slightly flatter course)
Sunday - 8.5 miles easy.
Total = 52 miles this week, wanted to hit the 100 miles for the two weeks. Looking back, the max weekly mileage I ever hit in my previous training was 39 miles, big step up for me but feeling reasonably well on it.
Looking forward to next weeks schedule but may have to tweak it a bit as I have a lot on this coming week

1st or regarding the knee sometimes its best to listen to the body. Some pains can just be discomfort while others are distress signs from your body and should not be ignored. If it persists my advice would be take a few days off and get it checked out. its better to lose a few days now than have it get worse and have you out for longer or worse miss the target race altogether
Dont worry about tweaking the program after all this is just like the ones that you get from any books in that you make it fit around your life. Remember for the majority of athletes running is a hobby not a job and as such other factors of life must take precedence from time to time

donothoponpop

ecoli wrote: »

Right so topic for this week is Fartlek so i will leave it open to people for the week

The only thing i will say regarding the session planned is you are still in base building phase and as such rather than burst/recovery i would like it to be between easy/steady paces so it is staying in the aerobic development zone and is not exactly working other systems. This is introduced more so to break up the monotony and have a bit of fun with the training.

This makes a lot of sense. Previously I'd done fartlek halfway through a training schedule, hence the shorter bursts included with the long. I can understand why you'd prefer us to run more steady paced intervals.

smmoore79

Still cant change the table. Summary for me this week has been 5 sessions and 35 miles total for the week. Total miles from the start is 101 miles (3 weeks training). Next weeks mileage is 42 weeks, arghh!

kaymin

cunavalos

donothoponpop

It might be an idea to widen this weeks topic under discussion to include the other elements of the training week (mea culpa with limiting it to just fartlek:o).

There's a great thread on strides (and other sessions) here. Must say I'm a bit puzzled at the suggestion to do strides prior to an easy run- I had been doing them during, and lately after, the run. If the idea is to improve running form, surely its a better idea to try and improve this form when you're flagging a bit?

When does everyone else do strides? Before, during, or after?

ELFOYZER

donothoponpop wrote: »

It might be an idea to widen this weeks topic under discussion to include the other elements of the training week (mea culpa with limiting it to just fartlek:o).

There's a great thread on strides (and other sessions) here. Must say I'm a bit puzzled at the suggestion to do strides prior to an easy run- I had been doing them during, and lately after, the run. If the idea is to improve running form, surely its a better idea to try and improve this form when you're flagging a bit?

When does everyone else do strides? Before, during, or after?

Very interesting thread on strides alright.
I've never been a one for strides and have only started including them, well - last week!
I've tried them in the past but never knew if I was doing them correctly - I was told that it was a 'short,fast run with exaggerated movements' - so when passers-by were stopping to look I just kept on running - seriously. I felt like a bit of a wally doing them.
Now that I understand what they are and their benefit I will include them at the end of more sessions, maybe up to 3 times during this week.(?)
Would definitely do them at the end of a run as suggested, just to snap back into proper running posture and help create better running form.

ELFOYZER

Don't mean to cut accross the 'stride' discussion, but I was wondering if you guys refuel during training.
I'm curious because I very rarely gulp gels or water during any of the sessions, even on long runs up to 15 miles.
I tend to run early in the morning so breakfast is a 500ml bottle of water, maybe a slice of toast if I feel hungry. I'd eat and drink properly when I get back in from the run.
I'm not a big 'gel' fan but use them on longer slow runs ( +15miles) and always use them in half and full marathons. For half M's I carry 1 gel, taking it at 10 - 15k. In full marathons I wear a 4 bottle fuel belt and hang them out of that, taking 1 gel +1 bottle of water every 10k or so.
I guess I'm wondering should I be rethinking the nutrition - pre-fueling, during training and after?