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british sas , are they over rated

kevinhalvey

ive been doing a good bit of re-search about all different special forces such as german ksk irish rangers delta force polish Polskie Jednostki Specjalne australian sasr etc

as far as i have made out they all use very similar or the same tactics in hostage rescue . but out of them all the sas are always most regarded

in my opinion they are overrated because all the other special forces are just as elite but underestimated i personally think its because the eng sas are the only ones who have been deployed into major hostage negoiations

i would like to hear other peoples opinions on them and others

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ynotdu

Hi Kevin this might help You decide for Yourself.It is a news bulletin of a very rare day were an SAS operation was covered live in its entirety by the BBC.It happened in daylight because hostages were being killed and the SAS had no choice but to go into action.

Negotiations were going on but alongside that bugging devices were being installed,In order to cover the noise of the SAS planting the listening devices from the rooftop.
undercover SAS dressed as council workers started up Kango hammers on Q from the military and commercial Airlines were asked to fly as low as possible over the Embassy.There are loads of Youtube Video's about the operation if You use diffrient keywords.

Due to the bugging devices the SAS knew exactly were the hostages and the terrorists were.The hostages were all released alive,Three of the terrorists were killed,One injured and one arrested, The Embassy burned to the ground.

Proably the other most famous one is the release of all hostages by the Israeli Special services from Uganda after their Plane was hijacked and let into Uganda by the Looney president Idi Amin.
The Israeli Commando's left from their own country,flew under radar undetected and in the fire battle only one hostage died.
The rest of the hostages were back in Israel before Amin was even woken.
This operation was made famous by a Movie called 'Raid on Entebee.

The Irish rangers went into action in Chad and once even to a Pub just off Dublins O'Connel ST.

footage is rare of any special forces in action from any Country.
There are two i can think of,Russias disaster to rescue the cinema goers and its attempt to rescue the Schoolkids.

Although they keep their identies hidden even from other Special Services the Irish Rangers often go into 'Competition' against other Countries Special Services and it is reported achieve scores right up with the most famous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_p4DmuGyehc

angry_fox

ynotdu wrote: »

.
...............even to a Pub just off Dublins O'Connel ST.

Whats happened???

Arfan

Whats happened???

Well I said that the Spire was a representation of Ireland's socio-economic regulation but Maloney insisted it was a metaphor for the plight of the Armenian railway system...

Things got a bit heated after that.

But in regards to the topic, I'd say the SAS are a first among equals. A lot of countries' special forces rate are comparable in terms of training and skill, the only difference is in their ability to deploy and the scale of the operations they can mount.

BigDuffman

Noticing an increase of silly threads recently..but nothing galls me more than the "we r da bestest army ever" or who's dad can beat who's dad etc etc.

Its hard to define a standard for "the best" amongst elite forces, as SF operations by their very nature are are Special and unique. Their rolls are far too varied for there to be a standardized measure. From covertly mapping out reefs and harbors to mad bootnecks strapping themselves under the wing of a gunship and flying in on a rescue, activities can seem like an episode of whacky racers.

Although there are a few competitions (see an cosantor about 3 years ago) I find it hard for any entity to judge themselves as the numero uno at all things.

"Ooh I'm the best listener, watcher, sniper, driver, navigator, best self restraint, best sleeping ability, most batch loafs consumed in 3 hours, breacher, CQC specialist" etc.

The SAS are one of the longest established specialist units. With Stirling judged by many as the father of modern day Special Forces and small unit tactics. By their long history and involvement in most modern conflicts they have a wealth of experience. And have a world class reputation, like the BA are also world renowned as being the most professional military on the planet.

I have not served in / with any other nations SF so until I have, all I can do like most is speculate on what we read and hear, which by its nature will be biased and second hand. We've all met and had encounters with SF types or know someone who knows someone who said something, but in my opinion such questions are like having pissing competitions into the wind.

As most mad f***ers who end up in elite units will be counted as being "one of the best in the world".

kevinhalvey

ynotdu wrote: »

Hi Kevin this might help You decide for Yourself.It is a news bulletin of a very rare day were an SAS operation was covered live in its entirety by the BBC.It happened in daylight because hostages were being killed and the SAS had no choice but to go into action.

Negotiations were going on but alongside that bugging devices were being installed,In order to cover the noise of the SAS planting the listening devices from the rooftop.
undercover SAS dressed as council workers started up Kango hammers on Q from the military and commercial Airlines were asked to fly as low as possible over the Embassy.There are loads of Youtube Video's about the operation if You use diffrient keywords.

Due to the bugging devices the SAS knew exactly were the hostages and the terrorists were.The hostages were all released alive,Three of the terrorists were killed,One injured and one arrested, The Embassy burned to the ground.

Proably the other most famous one is the release of all hostages by the Israeli Special services from Uganda after their Plane was hijacked and let into Uganda by the Looney president Idi Amin.
The Israeli Commando's left from their own country,flew under radar undetected and in the fire battle only one hostage died.
The rest of the hostages were back in Israel before Amin was even woken.
This operation was made famous by a Movie called 'Raid on Entebee.

The Irish rangers went into action in Chad and once even to a Pub just off Dublins O'Connel ST.

footage is rare of any special forces in action from any Country.
There are two i can think of,Russias disaster to rescue the cinema goers and its attempt to rescue the Schoolkids.

Although they keep their identies hidden even from other Special Services the Irish Rangers often go into 'Competition' against other Countries Special Services and it is reported achieve scores right up with the most famous.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_p4DmuGyehc

i seen every documentry on the arabian embacy seige and they did do an excellent job but are all special forces tactics not practacally the same

Local-womanizer

kevinhalvey wrote: »

i seen every documentry on the arabian embacy seige and they did do an excellent job but are all special forces tactics not practacally the same

Most likely yes. Why? Because the tactics are effective.

As has been pointed out,its pointless trying to figure out who is the best SF unit in the world....

Also,dont forget the ARW rescuing hostages in Liberia without a shot fired or anyone killed.

DylanJM

I hate these sort of threads, they're pointless. No special forces are overrated, they are trained to do their job and do it well.Doesn't matter which special forces. The SAS and other special forces are doing a great job over in afghanistan at the moment and to label them as overrated is quite insulting, especially when they are putting their lives on the line daily.To put that in context, here's a quote from General Stanley McChrystal about the SAS in Iraq in 2007:

I know one squadron that in a six-month rotation of 180 days I think they did 175 operations.

The reason the SAS come up first whenever you here about special forces is probably due to them being the first proper special forces unit, laying the groundwork for the creation of similar units long after.

they all use very similar or the same tactics in hostage rescue

The SAS were at the forefront in the 70's when terrorism kicked off, they developed many of the CT technques used today before anyone else i.e. the use of flashbangs.

troubleshooter

kevinhalvey wrote: »

ive been doing a good bit of re-search about all different special forces such as german ksk irish rangers delta force polish Polskie Jednostki Specjalne australian sasr etc

as far as i have made out they all use very similar or the same tactics in hostage rescue . but out of them all the sas are always most regarded

in my opinion they are overrated because all the other special forces are just as elite but underestimated i personally think its because the eng sas are the only ones who have been deployed into major hostage negoiations

i would like to hear other peoples opinions on them and others

The only units you can compare to 21 SAS, are the US Delta force a unit based on the SAS and its SAS sister units in Aus and NZ.

You cant compare the training or experience or selection of most other armies SOF units to the SAS

Example, lets say someone joins the Parachute reg at 18 they do a tour of Helmand and an ardous selection programme, arguably as tough as many nations special forces selection. At 2o they pass selection for 1 Para/the Special Forces support group backing the SAS up in ops. At 22 the pass the ardous Parachute reg Pathfinder selection course, and do another tour in Helmand, this time doing long range patrol stuff. At 24 they have a crack a SAS selection and pass, after 18 months they apply to join mountain troop and spend 1 yr with the German army doing the ardous Baverian mountain warfare course..........Thats the level of experience of the average SAS trooper......You cant compare that to most other nations special forces.

That Irish lad who was a Royal marine who was kiilled in A/Stan the other yr had already passed the Royal Marine commando course and was serving with the RM brigade recon force, before attempting and passing his phase 1 SAS selection, thats the level of experience and thats why the SAS is different, then other specal forces units, its because its intensity of ongoing operations, training, and selection failure rate is so extreme.

Avgas

The OP cannot be answered definitively...its one of those questions.....

Except to say that any country can buy state or the art SOF gadgets/weapons and gear...and you can buy in training....and develop tactics as used by everyone else.......BUT....EXPERIENCE counts much more.....it is the best school......and the SAS have that in spades......Hostage rescue by the way is just one very specific SF mission....the SAS are as good if not better at others....such as covert recce...which is where they came from...and behind the lines sabotage....many countries have adequate or even good hostage rescue units...but these would not have the experience to offer other SF roles with the same steady assurance learned from experience. The SAS have.

One final point. The quality of your SF is only as good at the quality of your raw recruit base...basically how good are you infantry men... because that is usually where you recruit your SF people from (some exceptions might be for some signals and obviously marine/sea/divers, etc.).

In this regard British Army are widely acknowledge as producing man for man some of the finest infantry there is......if you recruit selectively from that you are very likely to have outstanding people......I have read that German special forces suffer from this problem in that their recruiting base is a pool of conscripts...and while they have no doubt many excellent people who pass physical muster.....there is a whole psychological and attitude thing.....that they may not have...but which conversely the British regimental professional system breeds and lives on........

BTW not all SAS men are English! The Welsh, Scottish and Irish have had a noted warlike disposition now for oh.....maybe 3,000 years? You'd find those accents in today's SAS.

The major problem with the SAS now is it has lost its covertness..and has become a mythic force...an image which probably gets in the way at times....of operational needs.......so if the media pick-up that SAS teams have been deployed somewhere .....they go to town about it and assume .....dramatic Iranian embassy style ops must follow...whereas the Brits have always stressed the value of covertness...less is (usually) more...providing HUMINT and intel....being able to make passable small talk with a village headman in Arabic, Pashto, or Dari.

There is a whole 'non-kinetic' side to SOF that is arguably as important as going in guns blazing......and the SAS would be pretty excellent at that as well..

Just my thoughts.

Poccington

troubleshooter wrote: »

The only units you can compare to 21 SAS, are the US Delta force a unit based on the SAS and its SAS sister units in Aus and NZ.

You cant compare the training or experience or selection of most other armies SOF units to the SAS

I'd respectfully disagree with the above but at the same time, I also agree with the above in a way? If that makes any sense at all. :pac:

I'd agree that you can't compare most SOF units to 22 SAS because quite frankly and I'm sure you know, not all SOF Units have the same taskings or doctrine.

US Special Forces can't conduct CT Ops the way 22 SAS or Delta could because it's not what they train for but at the same time, 22 SAS or Delta IMO couldn't conduct Uncoventional Warfare the way US Special Forces could as it's not within their remit while UW is SF's bread and butter.

To say you can't compare other SOF Units experience, training or selection to 22 SAS is naive and a bit fanboyish.

A lad joins the US Army at 18, ends up in the 75th Ranger Regiment by 19, spends a year at home then heads out on a year long combat deployment support SOF Units in Afghanistan and spends another year at home before attempting SFAS. Upon passing SFAS, he begins his Q Course and chooses 18D as his MOS. From the time he begins Phase 2 of the Q Course until the time he finishes Robin Sage, he will have clocked up over 70 weeks of training before he gains his Green Beret.

Different SOF Units have different taskings and doctrine, different selection and training processes, different drills and SOP's, will attend different schools and in the case of most of the major players in Afghanistan, their SOF Units will all work together at some stage.

No, all SOF Units aren't the same and this whole thing of "OMG who is m0st l33t sp3c1al f0rc3s" is just plain silly.(That's not aimed at you btw Troubleshooter.

Wicklowrider

ER, re the embassy action - wasn't that the one where a SAS head landed up hanging upside down from his rappelling rope swinging like a pendulum?

Weren't a car load of SAS arrested by a stationary Irish Army/garda checkpoint in late '70's - think the Irish soldiers were a cook and some other non specialists. SAS guys spent a few nights in mountjoy.

Wasn't an undercover SAS officer (Nairac?) identified by PIRA (late '70's) and played like a puppet until they disposed of him through a meat grinder?

Didn't an SAS patrol, equipped with GPS etc get lost in Iraq and then try to get out via the MAIN HIGHWAY! Actually there were several incidences of SAS patrols getting lost in different actions.

O.P did you ever see Fry & Laurie sketch where a lad wants to join the SAS? Fry and Laurie tell him theres no such thing as the SAS " Its merely a masturbatory technique used by the back benchers"... its one of those great comedy sketches that works because its so close to the truth.

I don't claim to be any kind of military expert but I don't swallow the commando comic version of the SAS - they seem to screw up on a regular basis.

Local-womanizer

Are you serious?

A few ops that go wrong is to be expected,it happens everyone.

Regarding the Iranian embassy siege,yes a guy got tangled and was hanging upside down,and he received serious burns from the fire that started below him,but the SAS still managed to take down the embassy while a squad down!

Weigh up those failures against the number of missions the SAS have taken part in,I hedge my bets that the failures are heavily out-weighed by their successes.

DylanJM

I hedge my bets that the failures are heavily out-weighed by their successes.

Damn right! The SAS have an operational history dating back to 1941, Wicklowrider mentions 4 or 5 of the most well publicised SAS "failures" and uses that to claim that they screw up on a regular basis. Give me a break.

I don't swallow the commando comic version of the SAS

Either do I, but if you actually did some research into the tiny amount of information of available about SAS operations you would reliase how wrong you are. You only hear about the failed operations because that's all the media and the vast majority of the public are ever intereseted in.

Wicklowrider

Local-womanizer wrote: »

but the SAS still managed to take down the embassy while a squad down!

You say with a squad down as if this somehow makes out an acomplishment? weren't there only 3 or 4 terrorists (read whacky students with firearms) What odds do the SAS normally require on a job?

DylanJM wrote: »

Damn right! The SAS have an operational history dating back to 1941, Wicklowrider mentions 4 or 5 of the most well publicised SAS "failures" and uses that to claim that they screw up on a regular basis. Give me a break..

Damn right!:D Oh I say old boy.......
Just re read my post - I can't see any claim about regularly screwing up?
Well publicised or not these were examples that occured to me on the spur of the moment - are you saying that if I google I am not going to come up with awhole lot more? I am well aware of how long the SAS exists (LRDG?). Wasn't their first operational drop the one where many of them DROWNED in sand because their O.C didn't accept the weather forecast? Think it took an Irishman to get a grip of them .......

DylanJM wrote: »

Either do I, but if you actually did some research into the tiny amount of information of available about SAS operations you would reliase how wrong you are. You only hear about the failed operations because that's all the media and the vast majority of the public are ever intereseted in.

I've got news for you - the vast majority of the public don't care about the SAS either way. Just to be clear, I happened on the O.P's question by accident and didn't agree with the embassy siege being held up as something it was not. Sorry I've upset the resident SAS fairytale groupies.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-504852/Who-errs-sins--SAS-wandered-Irish-border-caused-diplomatic-uproar.html Check this out and tell me how Elite Special Force guys were captured, detained and locked up in a civilian prison, by a cook, a plumber etc in the Irish Defense forces!
What happeneds to all their escape and evasion training? their CQB skills?
They'd still be in mountjoy only their government paid hard cash bail money!

Poccington

Wicklowrider wrote: »

ER, re the embassy action - wasn't that the one where a SAS head landed up hanging upside down from his rappelling rope swinging like a pendulum?

A stun grenade then started a fire, the SAS soldier recieved burns on his legs before getting loose and carrying on with the operation.

Weren't a car load of SAS arrested by a stationary Irish Army/garda checkpoint in late '70's - think the Irish soldiers were a cook and some other non specialists. SAS guys spent a few nights in mountjoy.

What did you want them to do exactly?

Wasn't an undercover SAS officer (Nairac?) identified by PIRA (late '70's) and played like a puppet until they disposed of him through a meat grinder?

Nairac was never a member of the SAS. He was with 14 Int.

Didn't an SAS patrol, equipped with GPS etc get lost in Iraq and then try to get out via the MAIN HIGHWAY! Actually there were several incidences of SAS patrols getting lost in different actions.

I'm going to assume you're talking about the Bravo Two Zero patrol.

They didn't "get lost", the patrol was compromised and they had to exfil to their emergency pickup point but the chopper never reached them as the pilot got sick.

They then had to attempt an exfil to Syria, the patrol got seperated and everyone knows what happened after that.

You also forgot to mention that Chris Ryan actually made it to the Syrian border.

I don't claim to be any kind of military expert but I don't swallow the commando comic version of the SAS - they seem to screw up on a regular basis.

Borneo, Oman(Including the Battle of Mirbat), The Falklands, Bosnia, The Gulf War, Sierra Leone, The Iraq War and Afghanistan.

The SAS have a great reputation for a good reason. They're among the best in the world at what they do.

DylanJM

I can't see any claim about regularly screwing up?

This is what you said:

they seem to screw up on a regular basis.

didn't agree with the embassy siege being held up as something it was not.

The embassy seige was a successful operation, they achieved what they set out to do. You have to remember this occured while counter terrorism operations were in their infancy. You mention the trooper who got burned during the absail as some sort of screw up. Well he continued on with the mission so I don't really know what point your trying to make there.

Look, I'm not arguing that there are more SAS missions that have ended in failure, but it's not exclusive to the SAS. Things happen, stuff goes wrong no matter what regiment or army you are a part of.

Wicklowrider

Poccington wrote: »

A stun grenade then started a fire, the SAS soldier recieved burns on his legs before getting loose and carrying on with the operation..

Source for that please?

Poccington wrote: »

What did you want them to do exactly?

I don't particularly want them to do anything - but you'd imagine that a force supposedly adept at intelligence gathering, recce missions etc wouldn't drive into a static 24 hour checkpoint and even if they did should have been capable of a hasty retreat or at worst talk themselves out of it... Are you seriously going to argue this one?

Poccington wrote: »

Nairac was never a member of the SAS. He was with 14 Int.

Thanks - I've learnt something.

Poccington wrote: »

They didn't "get lost", the patrol was compromised and they had to exfil to their emergency pickup point but the chopper never reached them as the pilot got sick.

Come on? Exfil is silly talk for getting a taxi and driving up the main road.
Whats the 1st thing you are taught in basic e&e - stay off the roads/track etc.

troubleshooter

Wicklowrider wrote: »

Source for that please?

I don't particularly want them to do anything - but you'd imagine that a force supposedly adept at intelligence gathering, recce missions etc wouldn't drive into a static 24 hour checkpoint and even if they did should have been capable of a hasty retreat or at worst talk themselves out of it... Are you seriously going to argue this one?

Thanks - I've learnt something.

Come on? Exfil is silly talk for getting a taxi and driving up the main road.
Whats the 1st thing you are taught in basic e&e - stay off the roads/track etc.

How can you claim (previous post) that the Iran embassy rescue was a failure, 19 hostages were freed unharmed, 6 armed terrorists killed, no SAS were killed, only one was accidently injured during the op. How is that a failure?

What did you want the SAS patrol stopped at a Garda check point to do? They were in civie clothes, undercover op or simply lost we dont know. The IRA claim they had members killed by the SAS across the border on ocassions.

As for basic e and e they hijacked a taxi in regards bravo 2 zero because the alternative was hundreds of miles across the desert there was no alternative. SAS phase 2 selection involves an e and e exercise in the jungles of south America or borneo where candidates are hunted for up to two weeks by dogs and have to live of the land. Do you really think they are not aware of basic e and e?

troubleshooter

Poccington wrote: »

I'd respectfully disagree with the above but at the same time, I also agree with the above in a way? If that makes any sense at all. :pac:

I'd agree that you can't compare most SOF units to 22 SAS because quite frankly and I'm sure you know, not all SOF Units have the same taskings or doctrine.

US Special Forces can't conduct CT Ops the way 22 SAS or Delta could because it's not what they train for but at the same time, 22 SAS or Delta IMO couldn't conduct Uncoventional Warfare the way US Special Forces could as it's not within their remit while UW is SF's bread and butter.

To say you can't compare other SOF Units experience, training or selection to 22 SAS is naive and a bit fanboyish.

A lad joins the US Army at 18, ends up in the 75th Ranger Regiment by 19, spends a year at home then heads out on a year long combat deployment support SOF Units in Afghanistan and spends another year at home before attempting SFAS. Upon passing SFAS, he begins his Q Course and chooses 18D as his MOS. From the time he begins Phase 2 of the Q Course until the time he finishes Robin Sage, he will have clocked up over 70 weeks of training before he gains his Green Beret.

Different SOF Units have different taskings and doctrine, different selection and training processes, different drills and SOP's, will attend different schools and in the case of most of the major players in Afghanistan, their SOF Units will all work together at some stage.

No, all SOF Units aren't the same and this whole thing of "OMG who is m0st l33t sp3c1al f0rc3s" is just plain silly.(That's not aimed at you btw Troubleshooter.

I agree, its difficult not to rise to the bait on these types of threads, obviously the SAS get things wrong on occassion, they are human and involved in fast changing ongoing operations in hostile environments. But in regards to their selection, training, record in warfare, and history they are second to none. Its difficult not to rise to the SAS are crap at what they do type posts, its the sheer arrogance and ignorance of such posts thats such a wind up. Its a bit like some overweight couch potato knocking guys who run the 100m in the olympics cause they are not fast enough, lol.

RMD

Wicklowrider wrote: »

ER, re the embassy action - wasn't that the one where a SAS head landed up hanging upside down from his rappelling rope swinging like a pendulum?

Yes that did happen and he received serious enough burns as a result. But then once in a position to he entered the building and continued to lead the assault while burnt.

You can't expect all Ops to go flawlessly, how many other SFs have you researched for botched Ops and mistakes occurring? Or is it just the Sas?

supersportq

Wicklowrider wrote: »

ER, re the embassy action - wasn't that the one where a SAS head landed up hanging upside down from his rappelling rope swinging like a pendulum?

Weren't a car load of SAS arrested by a stationary Irish Army/garda checkpoint in late '70's - think the Irish soldiers were a cook and some other non specialists. SAS guys spent a few nights in mountjoy.

Wasn't an undercover SAS officer (Nairac?) identified by PIRA (late '70's) and played like a puppet until they disposed of him through a meat grinder?

Didn't an SAS patrol, equipped with GPS etc get lost in Iraq and then try to get out via the MAIN HIGHWAY! Actually there were several incidences of SAS patrols getting lost in different actions.

O.P did you ever see Fry & Laurie sketch where a lad wants to join the SAS? Fry and Laurie tell him theres no such thing as the SAS " Its merely a masturbatory technique used by the back benchers"... its one of those great comedy sketches that works because its so close to the truth.

I don't claim to be any kind of military expert but I don't swallow the commando comic version of the SAS - they seem to screw up on a regular basis.

Totally agree with you. Their the most hyped up military unit in the world, no doubt about it. propably because Britian can no longer go on about how to rule the waves etc so they have to make up some fairytale about thier military brillance :rolleyes:. Whenever you watch a documentary about them it's just themselves bragging about how great they are, they never question the men they fought against for their opinions. And every documentary about them is always described with words like "amazing" "incredible" "outstanding" etc, etc

I'd say the police SWAT team's in America have proven themselves in many, many more situations to be more profficent. Not saying they haven't made cockups either, but the amount of raids on crack houses, heavily armed criminal gangs etc on an almost weekly basis keeps them on the top of their game. Unlike the SAS who merely simulate it in Hereford and hype themselves about a shoot out with a few Iranian students 30 years ago.

supersportq

Poccington wrote: »

A stun grenade then started a fire, the SAS soldier recieved burns on his legs before getting loose and carrying on with the operation.

What did you want them to do exactly?

Nairac was never a member of the SAS. He was with 14 Int.

I'm going to assume you're talking about the Bravo Two Zero patrol.

They didn't "get lost", the patrol was compromised and they had to exfil to their emergency pickup point but the chopper never reached them as the pilot got sick.

They then had to attempt an exfil to Syria, the patrol got seperated and everyone knows what happened after that.

You also forgot to mention that Chris Ryan actually made it to the Syrian border.

Borneo, Oman(Including the Battle of Mirbat), The Falklands, Bosnia, The Gulf War, Sierra Leone, The Iraq War and Afghanistan.

The SAS have a great reputation for a good reason. They're among the best in the world at what they do.

Bravo Two Zero is possibly the biggest load of military fiction ever published. Example ,they stated they had killed something like 250 Iraqi's for the loss of 2 or 3 of them

Weren't they unfortunate that their were no surviving Iraqi's who were wounded or fled the scene to back up their fairytale.

It's like the charge of the Light Brigade or the Dunkirk spirit etc, bullsh!t.

And as for Capt Nairac, the SAS couldn't shut up claiming he was a member of them until it was exposed of his invovlement with the loyalists, some 'hero'. And how it took 7/8 IRA men to subdue him etc until the real truth emerged that he was over powered by one IRA man, an amateur boxer, who tackled him as he tried to pull a gun in a car park outside a pub. Think he may have been shot with his own gun later outside Dundalk ?

Wicklowrider

RMD wrote: »

how many other SFs have you researched for botched Ops and mistakes occurring? Or is it just the Sas?

If you read my original post you will see that I asked questions ( seems this forum isn't the place to ask anything), declared I was no expert and subsequent to that I stated these were screw ups I remembered off the top of my head. See? no research. Would you like me to research it for you or can use google yourself?

Its obvious that there are people here are actually fans and not objective.

The embassy raid was initally, on this thread, held up as a beacon of the highest standards of SF quality. My opinion is that it was akin to setting a terrier on a lion - what did you expect?Non trained ( no scheme of defense, no booby traps, no escape plan et etc) murderous lunatics were tackled by the British army's elite.Regarding the chap hanging from the rappelling line - I expect better, sorry if that causes you offense.
Previous posters then went on to defend the complete cock ups of SAS patrol south of the border, B20 etc. Really, I think these were indefensible cock ups that would be an embarrassment of epic proportions to a professional unit.

Look lads, go ahead and believe what you read and see on t.v - my opinion remains that any unit capable of cock ups like these are special for all the wrong reasons. Thanks again for answers that did teach me something and to the posters who added real educated input.

BlaasForRafa

troubleshooter wrote: »

How can you claim (previous post) that the Iran embassy rescue was a failure, 19 hostages were freed unharmed, 6 armed terrorists killed, no SAS were killed, only one was accidently injured during the op. How is that a failure?

Don't worry about it. The shinners are just sore over successful operations like Loughgall where 8 PIRA members were neutralised before they could destroy a police station

supersportq

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Don't worry about it. The shinners are just sore over successful operations like Loughgall where 8 PIRA members were neutralised before they could destroy a police station

It wasn't the unqualified success that they made it out to be. Firstly they killed a completely innocent civilian Anthony Hughes and badly wounded his brother who was driving nearby. They also riddled a car been driven by a woman, luckily not hitting her but the woman was hospitalised due to deep shock unsurprisingly.

According to Tim Pat Coogan, definetly one and possibly two IRA men managed to escape and that the operation was the result of the work of the RUC Special Branch though the SAS were invovled in the shoot out with them. As for it's effect in detering the IRA, in revenge a while later at nearby Ballygawley the IRA exploded a huge bomb in a trailer as an unmarked bus passed by carrying 36 British solders who had arrived from Aldergrove airoprt for their tour of duty killing eight soldiers and maiming most of the rest. Not exactly a success story now was it.

troubleshooter

supersportq wrote: »

Totally agree with you. Their the most hyped up military unit in the world, no doubt about it. propably because Britian can no longer go on about how to rule the waves etc so they have to make up some fairytale about thier military brillance :rolleyes:. Whenever you watch a documentary about them it's just themselves bragging about how great they are, they never question the men they fought against for their opinions. And every documentary about them is always described with words like "amazing" "incredible" "outstanding" etc, etc

I'd say the police SWAT team's in America have proven themselves in many, many more situations to be more profficent. Not saying they haven't made cockups either, but the amount of raids on crack houses, heavily armed criminal gangs etc on an almost weekly basis keeps them on the top of their game. Unlike the SAS who merely simulate it in Hereford and hype themselves about a shoot out with a few Iranian students 30 years ago.

The SAS are involved everyday in operations against insurgents in previously Iraq now Afghanistan,in far more operations and a more hostile theatre then the average US Police swat team officer, who does encounter suicide bombers or IEds.

The fact you dont even know the SAS have been involved in other theatres since 81 shows how poorly informed you are. If you think the SAS are simply based in Hereford and practising you are very badly informed.

5o PIRA scumbags killed for a start, the Falklands,NI, columbia, the gulf to name a few.

Wicklowrider

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

Don't worry about it. The shinners are just sore over successful operations like Loughgall where 8 PIRA members were neutralised before they could destroy a police station

Lads please don't let this get politcal - don't mean that in offense to anyone.
In military terms Loughall wasn't the shining success the propoganda merchants would lead us to beileve. If a bunch of FCA lads lost fire control in the manner the SAS did at Loughall they'd still be locked up. Jeez, have some restraint - how do you think the brother of the innocent man murdered that night feels? How do you think the innocent woman feels everytime she hears a car back fire. You didn't have me rejoicing at loss of SAS life or injuries - and you never will,please lets have some respect for everyone.

troubleshooter

supersportq wrote: »

It wasn't the unqualified success that they made it out to be. Firstly they killed a completely innocent civilian Anthony Hughes and badly wounded his brother who was driving nearby. They also riddled a car been driven by a woman, luckily not hitting her but the woman was hospitalised due to deep shock unsurprisingly.

According to Tim Pat Coogan, definetly one and possibly two IRA men managed to escape and that the operation was the result of the work of the RUC Special Branch though the SAS were invovled in the shoot out with them. As for it's effect in detering the IRA, in revenge a while later at nearby Ballygawley the IRA exploded a huge bomb in a trailer as an unmarked bus passed by carrying 36 British solders who had arrived from Aldergrove airoprt for their tour of duty killing eight soldiers and maiming most of the rest. Not exactly a success story now was it.

There is no evidence two terrorists escaped that ambush, thats just more SF/pira bs.

troubleshooter

supersportq wrote: »

Bravo Two Zero is possibly the biggest load of military fiction ever published. Example ,they stated they had killed something like 250 Iraqi's for the loss of 2 or 3 of them Weren't they unfortunate that their were no surviving Iraqi's who were wounded or fled the scene to back up their fairytale.

It's like the charge of the Light Brigade or the Dunkirk spirit etc, bullsh!t.

And as for Capt Nairac, the SAS couldn't shut up claiming he was a member of them until it was exposed of his invovlement with the loyalists, some 'hero'. And how it took 7/8 IRA men to subdue him etc until the real truth emerged that he was over powered by one IRA man, an amateur boxer, who tackled him as he tried to pull a gun in a car park outside a pub. Think he may have been shot with his own gun later outside Dundalk ?

More illinformed nonsense, it was only SF/IRA who claimed Nairac was SAS, he was part of a unit 14 Int Coy, the MOD always stated he was a Grenadier guards capt, which he was. Capt Niariac GC, was abducted, tortured and murdered by a group of drunken terrorists, one later claimed Niaric who never said anything when tortured was the bravest man he ever met. Only armchair republicans knock the bravery of brave dead soldiers.

troubleshooter

Wicklowrider wrote: »

Lads please don't let this get politcal - don't mean that in offense to anyone.
In military terms Loughall wasn't the shining success the propoganda merchants would lead us to beileve. If a bunch of FCA lads lost fire control in the manner the SAS did at Loughall they'd still be locked up. Jeez, have some restraint - how do you think the brother of the innocent man murdered that night feels? How do you think the innocent woman feels everytime she hears a car back fire. You didn't have me rejoicing at loss of SAS life or injuries - and you never will,please lets have some respect for everyone.

Ha, ha, ha, lost control, lol. It was classic Linear infalade/ambush which left 8 enemy dead, using large amounts of rounds was used a tactic on all SAS/Det ambushes in NI to show the PIRA what happened if the met the SAS on an operation, and strike fear into them, it also denied them an open coffin, which was often used as a propaganda tool. Often 800 plus rounds were fired into vehicles.

The civilian who was shot dead was unfortunate in that he was wearing a boiler suit, as the PIRA members were, and drove into the ambush from the other direction. It was the PIRAS biggest loss since 1921. Yet according to you it was an SAS failure, lol.

It was a textbush ambush, how can you seriously claim it was not a success for the SAS? The PIRA had one of their most prolific ASUs wiped out including one of their most experienced bomb makers. It also left the PIRA in a state of paranoia, not know if and where the intel. for the ambush came from.