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to baptise or not to baptise, that is the question

kassie

I'm 24 weeks pg and before i even go pg i've been struggling with the idea of a christening... neither myself nor my hubby are church goers, me personally i have no interest in the church or its beliefs at all, despite being brought up a catholic. Both mums very much believe in the church and i know would be devastated (not to mention very annoyed) if we didn't baptise the baby for fear "something would happen if we didn't" :eek: hubby feels we should go ahead and do it anyway and then let the child decide later in life if he/she wants to go to church. He/she will be attending our local catholic country school so the religion subject will be taught to the child but i feel very hypocritical having my child baptised when i don't believe for the sake of a school and being part of the communion ceremony in school and for the sake of our mothers... i really am torn on the subject! If i do decide to side with hubby and have the baby baptised, it will be such a low key affair...

anyone else with me on this?

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How Strange

kassie, we've already had this conversation. My OH isn't any religion, I was brought up catholic although very much lapsed at this stage. I mentioned to my mam a while back that if we had kids we wouldn't get them christened and she said pretty much what your mam would think. 'How could you do that to a baby, what if something happened?' My opinion is I don't want to indocrinate my child in a religion that believes an innocent baby goes to hell or some place other than the good place if it dies unbaptised. To me that's abhorrent.

My OH said he is totally opposed to baptism and if I went ahead with it he wouldn't be present. I know this will be an issue with my parents. His will be fine and couldn't care less. I'm just going to have to play it by ear and I'd rather not make a big announcement or declaration. I'm sure my mother and granny and probably some aunts would be throwing holy water on it any chance they get. I don't really care about that but I won't be bullied into doing something that my OH and I are opposed to.

About schools, well if I have the choice the child would go to a non demoninational or multidemoninational and certainly not a catholic one. However, because that might not be possible as most schools are catholic then we'll just have to wait and see. If the child came home and said they wanted to make their communion like the other kids then we'd have to let them. I definitely wouldn't want to make them stand out from their peers if they were uncomfortable about it however I wouldn't all of sudden take to bringing them to mass on a sunday or anything like that.

I'd like to think that as a parent I will bring my child/ren up to be decent, kind people with respect for people of all walks of life.

kassie

thanks how strange... i know there are an awful lot of ppl thinking the same out there and i have posted up here about it before, its just been on my mind again lately. We did discuss having a celebration at home, a sort of "meet the baby" party, invite a few family members and friends for tea and sambos and letting the mothers bring holy water and have them bless the child if that made them feel better, i could live with that. Some one told me that thats as good as getting christened, now whether thats true or not i dunno!

As for the schools, we have an educate together school in our town but we live out the country and the local school would be much more convenient for us... but having the child taught religion (catholic) in the school i'm sure would be out of our hands as i'm sure 99.999999999% of the children that attend there are all catholic and have parents who practice... do we have the right to ask the school/teachers to exclude our child come religion time???

Like you say, if our child wishes to receive holy communion then fair enough but we won't be attending mass every week just because!

Its a toughy!!!

Nevyn

This has come up a lot in the past so I am going to move this to the main parenting forum and add links to some of the other threads.

By the way the child would still be in the class room at religion time just assigned other work to do.

metrovelvet

Thaedydal wrote: »

This has come up a lot in the past so I am going to move this to the main parenting forum and add links to some of the other threads.

By the way the child would still be in the class room at religion time just assigned other work to do.

Can they be assigned other work to do even if they have been Christened?

Ash.J.Williams

Most people seem to baptise nowadays so their kids will fit in, in school. THe common sense approach is why would you babtise a kid into a church that you don't believe in?
I'm sure the church don't really want you to join them unless you are going to obey?

Nevyn

metrovelvet wrote: »

Can they be assigned other work to do even if they have been Christened?

No if they are baptised and the school has record of this then they will be part of the class and expected to take part in religion class.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055000841&highlight=baptism
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055851467&highlight=baptism
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055057491&highlight=baptism
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055465146&highlight=baptism
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055208121&highlight=baptism

CrazyRabbit

Personally, I would wait until the child is old enough to choose if they wish to be babtised into any specific church. Somehow it seems wrong to 'force' religion onto a baby who can't have any say in the matter (especially in regards to religious-based ritual circumcision.)

However, if you want to raise the child as a catholic, then babtise them.
If you choose not to raise them as catholic, then don't. A babtismal cert isn't really going to make much difference in terms of school. Communion/confirmation time can still be celebrated in your own way.

Of course, at the end of the day it's just a splash of symbolic water, so if it's going to cause to much hassle in not doing it, then just do.

Nevyn

kassie wrote: »

hubby feels we should go ahead and do it anyway and then let the child decide later in life if he/she wants to go to church.

By getting the child baptised you are choosing for the child to be Christian.

How Strange

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

Of course, at the end of the day it's just a splash of symbolic water, so if it's going to cause to much hassle in not doing it, then just do.

Y'see this is the kind of attitude you'd be fighting against.

It's not just a splash of water to me and I wouldn't allow myself to be cajoled into doing something just to keep the peace with anyone.

If you want to raise your child as a catholic then fair play to you. I've no opinion on other parents religious or non religious views but I'd honestly say that laissez faire attitude of 'sure it's only a splash of water and it'll keep the mammy happy' accounts for a hell of a lot catholics in this country.

I don't intend to make a big deal of it but if my parents or my granny or a well meaning aunt wants to argue the point with me then they can go ahead. I won't be changing my mind to suit their beliefs.

You're either in or you're out in my book. You subscribe to a religious view and way of life or you don't.

spurious

CrazyRabbit wrote: »

A babtismal cert isn't really going to make much difference in terms of school.

Until places are short and they want to keep you out.

The big problem of course is people baptising kids to get them into local parish schools, or to not have them stand out. It perpetuates a religious-run (and owned) 'state' education system. It makes some groups be in a position to quote the 'fact' that large numbers of parents want their children brought up according to a particular ethos when in fact the majority of parents are actually non-practising and just do it to fit in or because of having no alternative.

Ash.J.Williams

How Strange wrote: »

Y'see this is the kind of attitude you'd be fighting against.

It's not just a splash of water to me and I wouldn't allow myself to be cajoled into doing something just to keep the peace with anyone.

If you want to raise your child as a catholic then fair play to you. I've no opinion on other parents religious or non religious views but I'd honestly say that laissez faire attitude of 'sure it's only a splash of water and it'll keep the mammy happy' accounts for a hell of a lot catholics in this country.

I don't intend to make a big deal of it but if my parents or my granny or a well meaning aunt wants to argue the point with me then they can go ahead. I won't be changing my mind to suit their beliefs.

You're either in or you're out in my book. You subscribe to a religious view and way of life or you don't.

It isn't really the peoples fault that our country is this way, historically it was the church that forced this issue through fear, people were scared not to baptise their kids, and in fairness, once you conformed to baptism, communion and confirmation your life was easier, you didn't have to believe but you had access to education and didn't become the freak in your community. It's only now really that people are starting to choose. There's a unkept field near me with nothing in it, it's an unbaptised kids burial ground, if that wasn't blackmail to baptise your kid then I don't know what is.

CrazyRabbit

How Strange wrote: »

Y'see this is the kind of attitude you'd be fighting against.

It's not just a splash of water to me and I wouldn't allow myself to be cajoled into doing something just to keep the peace with anyone.

If you want to raise your child as a catholic then fair play to you. I've no opinion on other parents religious or non religious views but I'd honestly say that laissez faire attitude of 'sure it's only a splash of water and it'll keep the mammy happy' accounts for a hell of a lot catholics in this country.

I don't intend to make a big deal of it but if my parents or my granny or a well meaning aunt wants to argue the point with me then they can go ahead. I won't be changing my mind to suit their beliefs.

You're either in or you're out in my book. You subscribe to a religious view and way of life or you don't.

I was speaking from the point of view of both the OP & myself (non-Catholic/Religious). I'm well aware that others see baptism as extremely important, and I in no way intended to 'bash' the Christian/Catholic beliefs.

In short, I'm saying that if a person is not Catholic/Christian then it IS just a splash of water to that person, and hence there's no harm in just doing it for an easier life. But I personally wouldn't baptise my child, even if it did lead to problems in school or with parents etc.

Nevyn

No if a person is not catholic/christian it is not a case of a splash of water it's a case of lying to the priest to start with and then in front of the congreation on the day and swearing oaths which you are going to break and have no intention on upholding.

Anyone who think it's just a dash of oil and a splash of water should go and read the rite of baptism for infants.

Splendour

Thaedydal wrote: »

By getting the child baptised you are choosing for the child to be Christian.

You are not choosing for your child to be a Christian but rather choosing for your child to be brought up in a particular religious denomination. No one can choose for another to become Christian.
Personally I hate Baptisms as I find them hypocritical. Most of the time they are done out of fear of relatives or unfounded superstition.
As a Christian myself (non Catholic) and a new Grandmother (too young for this role ;o), I have profound respect for my daughter and her husband in their decision not to have their son baptised -apart from the fact that I don't believe in infant baptism anyway! Having said that, it annoyed me she was married in a Catholic church and as far as I'm concerned this is people simply using the church to suit their own needs...

kassie

spurious wrote: »

The big problem of course is people baptising kids to get them into local parish schools, or to not have them stand out. It perpetuates a religious-run (and owned) 'state' education system. It makes some groups be in a position to quote the 'fact' that large numbers of parents want their children brought up according to a particular ethos when in fact the majority of parents are actually non-practising and just do it to fit in or because of having no alternative.

this is how i feel, it was like when we got married, we got married in a catholic church because we had no alternative even tho we are not practicing catholic's and did feel odd at the time and i had it out with my aunt who kept asking why did we bother going to a church... NO ALTERNATIVE!

I suppose, my biggest worry if we don't baptise is my kid asking at the age of communion why he/she can't join in with the other kids at school, i think i will feel bad telling him/her she can't be part of the class with his/her friends coz mammy and daddy didn't have them baptised!

It isn't really the peoples fault that our country is this way, historically it was the church that forced this issue through fear, people were scared not to baptise their kids, and in fairness, once you conformed to baptism, communion and confirmation your life was easier, you didn't have to believe but you had access to education and didn't become the freak in your community. It's only now really that people are starting to choose. There's a unkept field near me with nothing in it, it's an unbaptised kids burial ground, if that wasn't blackmail to baptise your kid then I don't know what is.

thats what i hate about the catholic church, they've been so controlling over its congregation in the past that its sickening... and my dad told me a story of my grandmother (who was sick with cancer at the time and bearly able to get out of bed) who missed mass one day and the priest told her that she was a bad mother and going to go to hell or something outrageous like that :mad:

metrovelvet

I would choose for my son to be raised a catholic but I would not like the IRish state to be teaching their warped version of the religion as I have seen the products of it and to be frank, its pretty sick.

There is a jansentistic streak in Irish catholicism which imo instructs people to be inapproprately masochistic.

Nevyn

kassie wrote: »

this is how i feel, it was like when we got married, we got married in a catholic church because we had no alternative even tho we are not practicing catholic's and did feel odd at the time and i had it out with my aunt who kept asking why did we bother going to a church... NO ALTERNATIVE!

Bullshít there was the option of the registry office, it's not like you could not exchange vows anywhere but a church, if you wanted the church for aesthetic reasons then that's different again.

Currently there are more and more hotel's which are more then happy to have the wedding/exchange of vows happen on the premises and have arrangements with the registry office to do so.

kassie wrote: »

I suppose, my biggest worry if we don't baptise is my kid asking at the age of communion why he/she can't join in with the other kids at school, i think i will feel bad telling him/her she can't be part of the class with his/her friends coz mammy and daddy didn't have them baptised!

Didn't bother me, I explained they could choose it if they wanted and as for joining in, both mine went to watch their friends on the day.

You can't be imho wishy washy if you don't baptise them, they will have questions their class mates will have questions, you have to be able to answer their questions and enable and empower them to be able to face and answer the questions of their peers.

How Strange

We were all set for a registry office wedding until a friend told me about civil ceremonies in hotels.

My OH's parents got married in a registry office in early 70's, his aunt in 80's.

byhookorbycrook

Gaelscoileanna were set up by groups of commited parents. If people feel they want an alternative,then they should do something about it.

athlone M

I can see both sides of the argument. I myself have two young children aged 1 and 2 and neither my husband and myself would regularly go to mass but we believe in God in our own ways, we had both of our children christened. I have a friend who hasn't had her child christened and tbh I feel for this child when he goes to school especially as it will be a little country school where something as simple as the child not being able to make its communion or confirmation with the other children will bring a lot of unnecessary pressure on the child as we all know how children can be cruel. I'm not saying that you should have your child christened for these reasons but it is something to think about

How Strange

athlone M wrote: »

I have a friend who hasn't had her child christened and tbh I feel for this child when he goes to school especially as it will be a little country school where something as simple as the child not being able to make its communion or confirmation with the other children will bring a lot of unnecessary pressure on the child as we all know how children can be cruel. I'm not saying that you should have your child christened for these reasons but it is something to think about

I don't agree. My OH was never baptised and he grew up in a very tiny village in West Cork in 1970's/80's. He said he never felt isolated or under pressure. His parents gave him the choice when his peers were making their communion and he decided he didn't want to.

In my nephews' school in another rural village, again a small school, there is an Indian family. For both communions, as they have two children the same age as my nephews, they were included and were given a blessing. I thought it was a nice thing for the children to do as they were included in the celebration but not in the religious ceremony.

So getting your children christened because you feel they would be isolated in school is pandering to scaremongering. Every child in this country is entitled to an education. The church may unfortunately sit on the boards of management but the schools are funded by the dept of education.

Woe betide any priest that tries to exclude my child/ren from school or school activities because of their different beliefs. Of course I still live in hope that by the time my child/ren go to school the churches will be well out of it and schools will be secular.

lazygal

How Strange wrote: »

I don't agree. My OH was never baptised and he grew up in a very tiny village in West Cork in 1970's/80's. He said he never felt isolated or under pressure. His parents gave him the choice when his peers were making their communion and he decided he didn't want to.

In my nephews' school in another rural village, again a small school, there is an Indian family. For both communions, as they have two children the same age as my nephews, they were included and were given a blessing. I thought it was a nice thing for the children to do as they were included in the celebration but not in the religious ceremony.

So getting your children christened because you feel they would be isolated in school is pandering to scaremongering. Every child in this country is entitled to an education. The church may unfortunately sit on the boards of management but the schools are funded by the dept of education.

Woe betide any priest that tries to exclude my child/ren from school or school activities because of their different beliefs. Of course I still live in hope that by the time my child/ren go to school the churches will be well out of it and schools will be secular.

+1. So when your child says they want to go somewhere because everyone else is going what do you say? Its ok to follow the herd by participating in a lie of a ceremony to get your child into school? Why would you want to be part of a school that woudl exclude those who are different?
So glad me and OH live near a few ET schools and won't have to put up with attitudes that dressing girls up like little brides and forcing other children to be excluded from superstituous ceremonies are normal and children should be forced to do what everyone else is doing because its easier that way for the State.

eviltwin

If everyone gets their child bapthised just to get them into school then nothing is going to change. Its only when schools are forced into accepting non Catholic children due to the sheer number of them out there then they will have no option but to let them join.

I have two children. I was raised in a very devout catholic home and became pregnant very young and as I was still living at home I had my daughter bapthised. It wasn't what I wanted but I gave into the pressure my mother put on me.

I don't go to church myself and hadn't been in one for mass at that stage in 4 years but I still did it. I really wish I hadn't. I have enough respect for religion to know that you should have valid reasons for joining one and to me getting a school place isn't valid enough.

I had my second child last year and had the same pressure but stuck to my guns. My son WILL NOT be getting bapthised just to appease my mother or society.

quozl

Twins due in August. They're not going to be baptised.

The only thing that has tempted me to is to avoid discrimination against them in applying to schools run under catholic auspices. These schools receive state funding, should not be able to discriminate based on religious beliefs, and I don't want to support what I consider a flawed system.

metrovelvet

I dont buy for one second that you need to be baptised to get a place in school. Are you telling me the Jews of the nation are all walking around like illiterate fools because they didnt get an education? Show me ONE.

lazygal

metrovelvet wrote: »

I dont buy for one second that you need to be baptised to get a place in school. Are you telling me the Jews of the nation are all walking around like illiterate fools because they didnt get an education? Show me ONE.

+1 and the Muslims and Atheists are lacking education too!

People who claim they have to baptise are, I find, usually too afraid to rock the boat with granny/aunty mary/great uncle harry to actually grow a pair and step outside the norm. I'd love a survey on how many of these baptised kids are taken to mass, taught that gay people are sinful and that contraception is the work of the devil. Oh, and that its ok to discriminate against others.
OP if its not for you, your child will still get an education and you won't have to tell lies.

kassie

outa curiosity, is there anywhere on line you can view a certain schools policies/requirements for admission? I know, when i was in school, we had a Jehovah's Witness in our class and when it came to religion he just done his home work and didn't take part in communion/confirmation activities. So i'm sure all schools will admit any religion. But do catholic run schools give priority to catholic/baptised children on application? or is it first come first served ?

lazygal

kassie wrote: »

outa curiosity, is there anywhere on line you can view a certain schools policies/requirements for admission? I know, when i was in school, we had a Jehovah's Witness in our class and when it came to religion he just done his home work and didn't take part in communion/confirmation activities. So i'm sure all schools will admit any religion. But do catholic run schools give priority to catholic/baptised children on application? or is it first come first served ?

School enrolments are covered under the Equal Status Act. Schools are allowed to discriminate in line with their religious ethos and if oversubscribed can refuse people who do not meet the criteria. In many areas the Catholic Schools are emptying while the ET schools are bursting at the seams!
If the school wants to admit other faiths they can but bottom line is that under the Act they can decide their ethos (incl who they employ btw) and discriminate on that basis). HTH

LostinKildare

Don't be afraid to not baptise your kids. My child isn't baptised. He goes to the excellent Catholic school in our village. He is just finishing 2nd class and was the only kid in the class who didn't make his communion. (If anyone asked him why, he simply said "I'm not religious.") None of the other children gave him a hard time, in fact a few were jealous because he didn't have to go to mass on Sundays.

I felt a bit bad that he was missing out on an occasion where he'd be celebrated (he loves parties!) so for a treat we took him out of school for a few days to go on a special trip that focused on his own interests -- history and science. We went to Edinburgh. Great place for kids, oozes history, castle, fun ghost tours, wonderful children's science museum, zoo, and -- bonus! -- he got to learn about his (my) Scottish heritage (woo! we have a tartan!) and the Protestant Reformation. A revelation to him that there are other religions besides Catholicism, that people believe different things and have been fighting about it and killing each other for thousands of years!

We had told him last summer we'd find a priest to baptise him if he wanted to make his communion (a friend of mine did this with her daughter) but he didn't want to. It worked out well for us. The only point of contention was the money, because that's what it seems to come down to for most kids -- how much you got. Oh and the dress if you're a girl.

kassie

this is a bit of a morbid question but worth throwing in the mix all the same... i'm guessing an unbaptised child (should they pass away for whatever reason) cannot be buried in a family plot along side family members that may already be in a cemetery??? Where do unbaptised people get buried?