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Mens Rights

Via

Why do you think it is that no one seems to be fighting for, campaigning for, or even just talking about, Mens Rights or Equality?

Is there a movement? A platform? An organization? A group of any sort???

Or is this thread the only place where you are very welcome to discuss your concerns...

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Zulu

The Corinthian wrote: »

I'm still wondering why we seem to have accepted that women should be the automatic carers (apparently because they have a womb) and that "the relationship the child has with its mother is more important" than the one it has with its father

+1
it is without a shadow of doubt arrogant, sexist, claptrap.

Dr Galen

The Corinthian wrote: »

I'm still wondering why we seem to have accepted that women should be the automatic carers (apparently because they have a womb) and that "the relationship the child has with its mother is more important" than the one it has with its father.

How can we even begin to have a discussion about men's rights when bigoted crap like that is being accepted without so much as a whimper, for fear of being seen to do a gender debate?

i think thats a good point and is worthy of a thread in itself really.

The Corinthian

Zulu wrote: »

Why are we accepting the assertion that 'having a problem with shift work' is a gender issue? It's not.

I'm still wondering why we seem to have accepted that women should be the automatic carers (apparently because they have a womb) and that "the relationship the child has with its mother is more important" than the one it has with its father.

How can we even begin to have a discussion about men's rights when bigoted crap like that is being accepted without so much as a whimper, for fear of being seen to do a gender debate?

Zulu

Why are we accepting the assertion that 'having a problem with shift work' is a gender issue? It's not.

sam34

CDfm wrote: »

and I dont want to address the point

that much is clear!:rolleyes:

Dr Galen

CDfm wrote: »

sam is a her and not a his

and I dont want to address the point as it would drag it too much off topic and I am into a more gender diversity and egalitarian approach

well in fairness Sam is a mod and so by asking you the question and asking you to back it up, I take it to mean that its ok to answer and it won't be seen as an attempt to go OT.

EDIT: Just as a sidenote, and related to your point CDfm, having worked in the Health Service and done the shifts, the nights and the weekends, I often had an issue wih it tbh. Was a serious pain in my ass. I wasn't alone in that either, a lot of the lads I would have known would have felt similar to weekends especially

The Corinthian

CDfm wrote: »

and I dont want to address the point as it would drag it too much off topic and I am into a more gender diversity and egalitarian approach

I would not confuse passivity with egalitarianism.

CDfm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Or perhaps you should address his point without attempting to use humour to sidestep it?

sam is a her and not a his

and I dont want to address the point as it would drag it too much off topic and I am into a more gender diversity and egalitarian approach

The Corinthian

CDfm wrote: »

Maybe I should have posted this instead

Or perhaps you should address his point without attempting to use humour to sidestep it?

CDfm

sam34 wrote: »

oh really?

men are happy to work weekends and night shifts, and "never" have a problem with it?

LOL

sam34 wrote: »

i quoted it in my post to make it clear.

to reiterate, it was your claim that men "never" have problems with shiftwork or weekends

Maybe I should have posted this instead

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Doz5w2W-jAY

Klingon Hamlet

eviltwin wrote: »

Because men can't be arsed?

Women's rights weren't just handed to us on a plate you know, we had to fight for them. We still have to fight for them for women who are subjected to unspeakable actions across the world and thats what we do.

Men can talk the talk but thats all they seem to do. I know so many fathers "denied" access to their kids in their words but do they get up off their bums and do anything about it? No they don't because that would involve effort and how much easy to sit around and feel sorry for yourself and blame everyone else.

And there is the male version of Womens Aid - its called Amen

Really? Really?!

Here's a theory. Women were granted more rights because the media backed them. Articles worlwide highlight the problems faced daily by women. ntire sections of magazines are devoted to women's lifestyle.

What do men get? The sports section. FHM and Nuts. We're reduced to boobs, beers and footballs. Why? Because the lowest common denominator of media---tabloids---also tend to represent the very stereotypes that pervade the general social psyche. So the problem lies with the general public's awareness, and therefore perception, of modern families.

The solution? Education. You speak of dads not getting off their arses to "do something about it". here's a thig. A mum would more than likely be entitled to Free legal Representation in court. So if she needs to goto court for anything, she signs a form and gets a solicitor. her maintenance and benefits are not taken into consideration in the Means Test. So she knows she can have someone professionally fight her battles for her.

Oftentimes the father is earning "too much", i.e. 18k or more disposable income per year. He therefore must manage to pay maintenance, rent/mortgage, possibly spousal maintenance AND cover considerable legal fees in the process. That may involve loans. Oh, and added to that pressure, he has to go out and work and pretend he's not heartbroken at not seeing his kids, not devastated at the way things have turned out, nd not terrified of the future for him and his broken family.

I take great offense to the repeated claims by people that dads are lazy. If that were true, I wouldn't be watching an endless flow of men coming into court fighting for access and guardianship. There are lazy parents. There are mothers who treat their kids like sh1t, who complain constantly about the trouble they give them, despite they being 50% responsible for the poor buggers being brought into the world in the first place, yet reaping fairly substantial benenfits for being a not-bothered mum. But I also know the vast majority of mums (and dads) are well-meaning, hard-working, and oft-beleaguered human beings who love their children and do what they believe is right to give their children the lives they deserve.

As for fighting for change:

Check out the pictures. they were freezeframes from a fifteen second spot, on a TV3 news bulletin last Saturday. We marched for 3 hours from 4 Courts to O'Connell Bridge. We do the same on Christmas. People showed great support. Yet there was no mention of us in the papers! Why? Plenty of cameras there.
Check out Prime Time on RTE 1 tonight at 9.35---see the fight.
Go here.

This country continuously puts men down. Try that with your child, see how they come out: depressed, dejected? Men are seen as the mean half of society, the guys who had their cake and ate it, and there's a certain level of "Now it's our turn" for the women's movement. And this has unfortunately only served to cause larger rifts between men and women. the objective should be to create a common ground so differences, while accepted as natural, can no longer be used as disadvantages or reasons to discriminate.

Which at the moment, on both sides, they are.

The Corinthian

Dr Galen wrote: »

Do you think that the Irish psyche has a bearing on this as well?

Were that the case masculinist movements would be far more advanced in other countries, but they're not.

If you look at the country in general, it is only when there is another slipup that the general public come out with marches, protests and such. In fact, judging by the complete lack of anything resembling protest at our current government and shambles of a political system, I can totally see why men don't get up off their arses to do anything.

But women don't get off their arses where it comes to politics any more or less than men, yet have no problem where it comes to the 'sisters are doing it for themselves' pursuit of women's rights and interests.

So I don't think political and masculinist apathy are related.

metrovelvet

Dr Galen wrote: »

Do you think that the Irish psyche has a bearing on this as well?

If you look at the country in general, it is only when there is another slipup that the general public come out with marches, protests and such. In fact, judging by the complete lack of anything resembling protest at our current government and shambles of a political system, I can totally see why men don't get up off their arses to do anything.

There is a quality of contagious inertia alright.

Dr Galen

The Corinthian wrote: »

I hate to admit it, but this is in large part correct. In part because we have been fed the idea that we are the oppressors, and thus cannot be the oppressed and in part because being seen as a victim and alpha-male is an oxymoron.

As a result, we rarely act until it is too late, and then often only campaign on the issue that has affected us. Until then, it is someone else's problem to solve, that we may recognize and even discuss, but never actually do anything about.

Even here there is a lot of navel-gazing, justified as 'education' that will ultimately go nowhere.

Do you think that the Irish psyche has a bearing on this as well?

If you look at the country in general, it is only when there is another slipup that the general public come out with marches, protests and such. In fact, judging by the complete lack of anything resembling protest at our current government and shambles of a political system, I can totally see why men don't get up off their arses to do anything.

The Corinthian

eviltwin wrote: »

Because men can't be arsed?

I hate to admit it, but this is in large part correct. In part because we have been fed the idea that we are the oppressors, and thus cannot be the oppressed and in part because being seen as a victim and alpha-male is an oxymoron.

As a result, we rarely act until it is too late, and then often only campaign on the issue that has affected us. Until then, it is someone else's problem to solve, that we may recognize and even discuss, but never actually do anything about.

Even here there is a lot of navel-gazing, justified as 'education' that will ultimately go nowhere.

CDfm

eviltwin wrote: »

Because men can't be arsed?

egalitarianism equality may not be your cup of tea

Women's rights weren't just handed to us on a plate you know, we had to fight for them. We still have to fight for them for women who are subjected to unspeakable actions across the world and thats what we do.

But this is Ireland and many men support and have supported and fought for womens rights to as an equality issue.

Men can talk the talk but thats all they seem to do. I know so many fathers "denied" access to their kids in their words but do they get up off their bums and do anything about it? No they don't because that would involve effort and how much easy to sit around and feel sorry for yourself and blame everyone else.

rights should be rights irrespective of gender or orientation and should be intrinsic irrespective of the actions of any lobby or pressure or interest group.

And there is the male version of Womens Aid - its called Amen

actually it isnt -its a domestic violence victim support group and that is a huge distinction in the same way Childline is a support group.

eviltwin

Dr Galen wrote: »

Ok so this was the OP

I think The Corinthian is correct. We are getting into all sorts of socio-economic debating here, along with a smattering of other things.

Can we bring the discussion back to this point and try and answer the question posed.

Where is the Man equivalent of Womens Aid for example, why do men not care or seem bothered?

Because men can't be arsed?

Women's rights weren't just handed to us on a plate you know, we had to fight for them. We still have to fight for them for women who are subjected to unspeakable actions across the world and thats what we do.

Men can talk the talk but thats all they seem to do. I know so many fathers "denied" access to their kids in their words but do they get up off their bums and do anything about it? No they don't because that would involve effort and how much easy to sit around and feel sorry for yourself and blame everyone else.

And there is the male version of Womens Aid - its called Amen

Dr Galen

Via wrote: »

Why do you think it is that no one seems to be fighting for, campaigning for, or even just talking about, Mens Rights or Equality?

Is there a movement? A platform? An organization? A group of any sort???

Or is this thread the only place where you are very welcome to discuss your concerns...

Ok so this was the OP

I think The Corinthian is correct. We are getting into all sorts of socio-economic debating here, along with a smattering of other things.

Can we bring the discussion back to this point and try and answer the question posed.

Where is the Man equivalent of Womens Aid for example, why do men not care or seem bothered?

sam34

CDfm wrote: »

what claim did you challenge. .

i quoted it in my post to make it clear.

to reiterate, it was your claim that men "never" have problems with shiftwork or weekends

The Corinthian

Dr Galen wrote: »

Could I suggest we try and stick to one of those, and for anything else good that comes up start a new thread.

I agree, but if we do so can we at least pick one that has a vague connection to the OT?

This thread is about men's rights ultimately, and if we go into a discussion on the philosophical consequences of capitalism on the family unit we will quickly lose sight on this - assuming we have not done so already.

Dr Galen

Ok everyone,

This has been a great thread, but I'm noticing 2 things.

1) We are beginning to meander around the place

2) There are about 3 or 4 different conversations and sub-topics going on in the last 3 pages

Could I suggest we try and stick to one of those, and for anything else good that comes up start a new thread. Don't be afraid of that new thread button. I'd rather have loads of good threads, all staying more or less on topic, than one big winding messy yoke of a thread.

If I see anything obvious, I'll spilt it off this thread into a new one for ya, but that might take a while.

Cheers

DrG

CDfm

sam34 wrote: »

that response is neither an answer to my question nor something that backs up your claim that i have challenged

what claim did you challenge. i thought your response was a bit tongue in cheek and my response to the male/female thing is that yes people do have rights and and it shouldnt be looked at in an all or nothing way.I postulated that service delivery to clients is often put lower on the chain of priorities then it should be.

i have read and seen reported issues concerning female/mother absenteeism in the civil service and i have a friend who works in industry who heads up a technical section & who says lots of women could not do her role because they would prioritise their lives differently etc. Her very well paid job means she is on call even when on holiday.

I have tried to widen this part of the discussion away from simply male vs females or maternity to include service delivery and client needs. I have also tried to add others than parents both male and female into the debate and include people who do not have or want kids and others such as gay & lesbians in this. As you cannot have a proper forum discussion without including everybody.

I have posted here about a lunchtime radio interview on Newstalk of Dr Jim McDaid on the composition of the medical profession and how changes in it have changed service delivery. It was an aside to an interview on hospital care and motherhood & it was he not me who said the area was far to contentious to be discussed and he not me who suggested what matters might be discussed if there was an open debatebut but would not discuss them because of the emotional noise and vitriol that comes out of these debates.

I thought he put his points well and if he as a politician and doctor won't be dragged into that side of the debate than i probably should not want to engage in it either, medical advice and all that.

sam34

CDfm wrote: »

men are super accomadating, thoughtful and kind

the point i am trying to make is a bit different in that culturally men are expected to step up.

i dont see why parents should get treated differently to non parents work wise and sick leave wise

i dont see why a parent should have protected job rights and seniority when someone else is filling to carry on their role.

the other aspect is that in the civil service attention is often drawn to female absenteeism almost seen as a job perk.

i know its a bit of a generalisation and have no problem with maternity leave or any of that -its the principle that service to the client comes second to the job holder

that response is neither an answer to my question nor something that backs up your claim that i have challenged

metrovelvet

CDfm wrote: »

men are super accomadating, thoughtful and kind

the point i am trying to make is a bit different in that culturally men are expected to step up.

i dont see why parents should get treated differently to non parents work wise and sick leave wise

i dont see why a parent should have protected job rights and seniority when someone else is filling to carry on their role.

the other aspect is that in the civil service attention is often drawn to female absenteeism almost seen as a job perk.

i know its a bit of a generalisation and have no problem with maternity leave or any of that -its the principle that service to the client comes second to the job holder

That's an across the board problem in this country top to bottom. The staff all think they are doing you a favor by showing up on time, from plumbers to salesmen for your bin collection. THere is no sense of customer or client satisfaction here.

CDfm

sam34 wrote: »

oh really?

men are happy to work weekends and night shifts, and "never" have a problem with it?

LOL

men are super accomadating, thoughtful and kind

the point i am trying to make is a bit different in that culturally men are expected to step up.

i dont see why parents should get treated differently to non parents work wise and sick leave wise

i dont see why a parent should have protected job rights and seniority when someone else is filling to carry on their role.

the other aspect is that in the civil service attention is often drawn to female absenteeism almost seen as a job perk.

i know its a bit of a generalisation and have no problem with maternity leave or any of that -its the principle that service to the client comes second to the job holder

sam34

CDfm wrote: »

nursing the same -train men & you get shift work and weekend work as men never have a problem with that.

oh really?

men are happy to work weekends and night shifts, and "never" have a problem with it?

LOL

CDfm

metrovelvet wrote: »

Perhaps one solution would be for the hospitals and or schools to pay for the training but have it tied into a five year binding contract of no leave of absences other than your usual holiday?

That or specialised training becomes something for graduate school, leaving it to the masters level where it gets paid for privately by the individual.

Absolutely, its like we train teachers to teach our kids and doctors to go doctoring our mothers and babies.Otherwise, a doctor who doesnt use their training is a very expensive waste of space.

By all means be flexible but put in an education voucher and loan system but we train them for our benefit and not for their pleasure.

limklad

Thaedydal wrote: »

Esp in this country you have what rights you can afford to push for,
if cases on the decriminalisation of homosexuality for example had not gone to the EU high courts then it would still be illegal.

It was in the Courts in Strasbourg The" European Court of Human Rights" under the organisation "Council of Europe" which is far older than the EU that help with decriminalisation of homosexuality. Senator David Norris took the Government to court there. The EU had nothing to do nor took interest with decriminalisation of homosexuality in Republic of Ireland as it was an "economic union" not an Organisation like the "Council of Europe" which dealt with issues like Human Rights.

The EU only adopted Human Rights Much Much later with the introduction of the Treaty of Amsterdam. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Amsterdam in 1997 and a Charter of Fundamental Rights of the EU in 2000, which incorporated the same Rights given under "Council of Europe" version of "European Convention of Human Rights" (ECHR). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_Rights

Article 14 - discrimination Is the one we should take the government to Court on when it comes to inequality in Irish Law due to Gender. Been male we been punished and Rights to Equality when it comes to Family rights is been abused by the Irish state, Government and Irish Courts.

Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms wrote:

Article 14 – Prohibition of discrimination
The enjoyment of the rights and freedoms set forth in this Convention shall be secured without discrimination on any ground such as sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, association with a national minority, property, birth or other status.

http://www.coe.int/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe

Judgement on 26 October 1988: http://www.aidslex.org/site_documents/SO-0060E.pdf against criminalization of Homosexuality.

metrovelvet

CDfm wrote: »

:eek: fight fight fight

we can disagree on the maternity recovery time whether its 3 or 6 or 12 months -it is a fact of life as is women giving birth.

What should matter is that we can chat openly about things like how the current model affects service delivery of vital and essential services.

the cost of equality might be that we charge doctors for their training or we train so many of em that maternity & career breaks are irrelevant but the job status & pay decreases.

nursing the same -train men & you get shift work and weekend work as men never have a problem with that.

teaching,especially primary teaching is more of a problem, but it also needs to be looked at in terms of service delivery and increasing literacy rates.

So while gender equality is part of the mix -service delivery needs to get back up there.

Perhaps one solution would be for the hospitals and or schools to pay for the training but have it tied into a five year binding contract of no leave of absences other than your usual holiday?

That or specialised training becomes something for graduate school, leaving it to the masters level where it gets paid for privately by the individual.

CDfm

metrovelvet wrote: »

A mother is more than a lactating cow.

But let's not forget that maternity leave is for physical recovery.

:eek: fight fight fight

we can disagree on the maternity recovery time whether its 3 or 6 or 12 months -it is a fact of life as is women giving birth.

What should matter is that we can chat openly about things like how the current model affects service delivery of vital and essential services.

the cost of equality might be that we charge doctors for their training or we train so many of em that maternity & career breaks are irrelevant but the job status & pay decreases.

nursing the same -train men & you get shift work and weekend work as men never have a problem with that.

teaching,especially primary teaching is more of a problem, but it also needs to be looked at in terms of service delivery and increasing literacy rates.

So while gender equality is part of the mix -service delivery needs to get back up there.