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The D4 Accent - And how it gets around

Red_Marauder

Now before people say this belongs in a Dublin forum, one of my biggest issues with this accent is that it actually doesn't. It's becoming a nationwide thing in all cities (less so in rural Ireland) and I really wonder sometimes where this ridiculous accent ever came from because it isn't related to geography.

The accent itself doesn't bother me as such, though it can be hard to listen to when users insist on taking it to extremes and at an unnecessarily high volume (buses, shopping centres and starbucks are the biggest offenders). It's just so obviously new and invented, where on earth was this accent in the 1980's or previous? I'm 23 and I'd reckon that I am older than it.

My own theory is that the traditional 'RTE' accent was a hybrid of the old 'valid' Dublin accent and a vaguely Anglo-Irish accent. This itself was an artificial construct that was widely copied and as such, with the advent of American TV, became easily replaced, or more accurately 'aggravated'. It is less of an accent and more of a terrible social marking that some people desperately wish to tag themselves with, assuming it gives them some desirabe social characteristic.

Like most people my accent reflects the places I grew up in and how my parents speak. The old 'Dublin 4 accent' was largely anglo-Irish and far more valid in terms of its origin than the current model. How that new model came to be used in Limerick, Galway and Cork is itself amusing.

Are there any people out there with this accent, particularly outside of Dublin, whose accent differs to their parents and neighbours, who could shed some light on this? I'm not being critical by the way, just interested.

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tommyhaas

Lando Griffin wrote: »

I myself have perfected the regional neutral accent, when i talk to normal people they think what a snob and when I speak to D4s they think im a knacker.

Is that you Bertie??

jmbkay

It's all over Malahide. Haw Haw. Guys.

gulf

Accents are reflective of your social positioning. If you position yourself alongside people who frequent Dublin's boardwalk and have a habit of smoking on public transport, don't be surprised if a bit of that rubs off on you when being percieved by other members of society.

I'm reminded of a choice quote from Theodore Dalrymple on appearance; but could equally well be extended to accents:

"The fact is that, given the laws of thermodynamics, it takes no effort to look like a slob; to be smart calls for care and attention, not only to one's clothes but to how one behaves. It also means that one must try to imagine what one appears in the eyes of others. Slobbery is the sartorial manifestation of solipsistic egotism; smartness is simultaneously self-respect and respect for others."

Full article:
http://incharacter.org/features/outward-and-visible-signs/

Aside: this thread really just demonstrates how class conscious the Irish multitudes really are, as well as the illusion that "there is no class system in Ireland".

Mars Bar

tommyhaas wrote: »

See what I mean??, the D4 accent has given Ringsend a bad name...

Sheesh, selective quoting much?!

The accent is fair annoying. It sounds like the person is suffering from a head cold constantly. It's so...nasal-y.

My sister is going moving to the D4 area for college in September and it's not going to be good because she picks up accents quickly.

tommyhaas

gulf wrote: »

"The fact is that, given the laws of thermodynamics, it takes no effort to look like a slob; to be smart calls for care and attention, not only to one's clothes but to how one behaves. It also means that one must try to imagine what one appears in the eyes of others. Slobbery is the sartorial manifestation of solipsistic egotism; smartness is simultaneously self-respect and respect for others."

So what your saying is that with a bit of effort and attention, D4 heads could sound like us normal Dubs??

gulf

What's worse? Those who mix in a social group of people who speak in the so-called "D4 accent", or those (typically disenfranchised urban/rural persons) who sneer at people for not being a "salt of the earth" type and for not conforming to their egalitarian ideology rooted in ignorance.

It's funny how a man can walk around with tattoos on his forehead or cloth himself in ladies apparel, but woe-be-tied any man who sets foot in a "salt of the earth" public house and orders a pint of Heineken.

tommyhaas

mars bar wrote: »

Sheesh, selective quoting much?!

Have a look back there pal, that was the full quote at the time, been edited since.

I lol'd when I read it, took it as a joke and I assume duckysauce took me reply as a joke too...

gulf

tommyhaas wrote: »

So what your saying is that with a bit of effort and attention, D4 heads could sound like us normal Dubs??

What's a "normal Dub"? Do you have to have a "passion" for GAA to qualify?

unknown13

By stuck up teenage girls who hang out in dundrum shopping centre wearing abercrombie and thinking they are god's gift.

Fortunately the recession has put an end to most of that crap as Daddy has just got a pay cut.

tommyhaas

gulf wrote: »

What's a "normal Dub"? Do you have to have a "passion" for GAA to qualify?

Only in the summer months, usually pack it in shortly before September...

gulf

unknown13 wrote: »

By stuck up teenage girls who hang out in dundrum shopping centre wearing abercrombie and thinking they are god's gift.

Fortunately the recession has put an end to most of that crap as Daddy has just got a pay cut.

Dundrum shopping centre is a consumerist haven for the parasitic middle classes. If you think you're a cut above the rest by emptying your pockets there on a Saturday, you're seriously deluded.

It's not just middle class girls who hang around shopping centres. I'm sure Donaghmede and Ballymun are full of similar adolescents who listen to the same music, are brain-washed by the same TV programs and are in the habit of irritating people in their vicinity. "Hanging out at the mall" is an engineered social phenomenon rooted in consumerism.

gulf

tommyhaas wrote: »

Only in the summer months, usually pack it in shortly before September...

I suppose I should say "fair play to ye". I guess I'd make a good politician: to say otherwise would be electoral suicide.

Dublin4Life

I disagree guys , the accent itself represents old money in the south dublin area
and it sets us apart from the scum who are taking over our city by having 10 children with 10 different men

tommyhaas

gulf wrote: »

Dundrum shopping centre is a consumerist haven for the parasitic middle classes. If you think you're a cut above the rest by emptying your pockets there on a Saturday, you're seriously deluded.

It's not just middle class girls who hang around shopping centres. Donaghmede and Ballymun are full of similar adolescents who listen to the same music, are brain-washed by the same TV programs and are in the habit of irritating people in their vicinity. "Hanging out at the mall" is an engineered social phenomenon rooted in consumerism.

What does it matter what people choose to spend there money on?? By no means am I a d4 head, nor do I think Im 'a cut above the rest', but if I choose to wonder around town/whatever shopping centre wasting my salery on overpriced branded teeshirts, well thats my own business isint it??

Captain Chaos

gulf wrote: »

Dundrum shopping centre is a consumerist haven for the parasitic middle classes. If you think you're a cut above the rest by emptying your pockets there on a Saturday, you're seriously deluded.

It's not just middle class girls who hang around shopping centres. I'm sure Donaghmede and Ballymun are full of similar adolescents who listen to the same music, are brain-washed by the same TV programs and are in the habit of irritating people in their vicinity. "Hanging out at the mall" is an engineered social phenomenon rooted in consumerism.

You're hardly going to see dizzy D4 heads hanging out in Donaghmede and Ballymun but you will find them in droves in Dundrum.

You completely missed the context of the post you replied to.

recylingbin

Dublin4Life wrote: »

I disagree guys , the accent itself represents old money in the south dublin area
and it sets us apart from the scum who are taking over our city by having 10 children with 10 different men

No, it doesn't. Old money doesn't speak like that. It's the sons and daughters of the auctioneers and accountants that sound like an episode of friends.
Old money is much more refined.

tommyhaas

gulf wrote: »

I suppose I should say "fair play to ye". I guess I'd make a good politician: to say otherwise would be electoral suicide.

Dublin4Life wrote: »

I disagree guys , the accent itself represents old money in the south dublin area
and it sets us apart from the scum who are taking over our city by having 10 children with 10 different men

Your talking as if theres only two distint groups; the living off daddy's money group and the 4x4 Ulrika Johnson's of this world. Thats far from the truth. Theres ordinary people who are neither scam the system knacker types nor do they look down from there high horses at those who wernt born with the silver spoon

gulf

recylingbin wrote: »

No, it doesn't. Old money doesn't speak like that. It's the sons and daughters of the auctioneers and accountants that sound like an episode of friends.

Who think they've made it when they're in posession of a platinum pass to Lillie's (€3000) and are signed up to a €850 subscription to the Residence club for the privilige of being in the same room as a mixture of retired property developers with bad credit ratings and D-list singers/songwriters/up-and-coming DJs/TV personalities. Probably drives an 07 Golf on hire purchase. Buys groceries on the VISA. Pops in to Donnybrook Fair to buy some rice cakes on the way back from Tescos.

gulf

tommyhaas wrote: »

Theres ordinary people who are neither scam the system knacker types nor do they look down from there high horses at those who wernt born with the silver spoon

Who are these elusive "ordinary people"? If someone approaches me and is well mannered, great. If they're some scruffy slob who acts all awkward, making me uncomfortable in the process, then go away: I prefer to be surrounded by nice people. Particularly when you're over 30: you've no excuses for positioning yourself alongside a bunch of low-lifes. By a man's friends you shall know him.

ElaElaElano

I'm not sure it's the accent in itself that's irritating, but the horseshít that goes along with it. I can't remember ever encountering someone with one of those 'd4' accents saying anything worthwhile. They always seem to speak louder than everyone else, and basically take a long time to say, like...like....like....like...nothing.

If I was having a conversation with someone who had one of those fake poshy accents, and they were a reasonable, genuine person with more than a couple of brain cells, the accent would soon become insignificant...but that's unlikely since anyone with more than a couple of brain cells would dismiss trying to sound like an american with a fork shoved up their hole as a little bit stupid.

Deus Ex Machina

Bollocks to all this ranting about the pretentious nature of the D4 accent, show me one person who isn't in some way affected. The reason why the D4 accent gets such stick is because it is less subtle than other common pretensions and therefore can be seized upon by even the most gormless individual. The other side of the it is that they are often, not always I concede, from families of reasonable wealth. This means that they are ripe for criticism regardless of what they do, the accent is often the most palpable aspect of their status and therefore it receives the most attention, this snowballs, and eventually everybody is criticising people because they put on their accents, thus making the critic feel someway distant from their own affectation.

gulf

Deus Ex Machina wrote: »

Bollocks to all this ranting about the pretentious nature of the D4 accent, show me one person who isn't in some way affected. The reason why the D4 accent gets such stick is because it is less subtle than other common pretensions and therefore can be seized upon by even the most gormless individual. The other side of the it is that they are often, not always I concede, from families of reasonable wealth. This means that they are ripe for criticism regardless of what they do, the accent is often the most palpable aspect of their status and therefore it receives the most attention, this snowballs, and eventually everybody is criticising people because they put on their accents, thus making the critic feel someway distant from their own affectation.

Some middle class people like to speak with D4 accents and hang out at shopping malls. For others, the culture of the least common denominator appeals to them: football, cheap beer, sex and fast-food. Either way, the consumer-driver illusion of "identity" makes plenty of money for those pulling the strings. Generally, those in the different consumer strata will never have real net wealth. If they do manage to escape the trawl nets, they'll be glorified and put on a pedestal for all to see. Without such celebrity "culture", the system can't operate.

Mezcita

gulf wrote: »

Some middle class people like to speak with D4 accents and hang out at shopping malls. For others, the culture of the least common denominator appeals to them: football, cheap beer, sex and fast-food. Either way, the consumer-driver illusion of "identity" makes plenty of money for those pulling the strings. Generally, those in the different consumer strata will never have real net wealth. If they do manage to escape the trawl nets, they'll be glorified and put on a pedestal for all to see. Without such celebrity "culture", the system can't operate.

Are you 73 years old by any chance?

Deus Ex Machina

gulf wrote: »

Some middle class people like to speak with D4 accents and hang out at shopping malls. For others, the culture of the least common denominator appeals to them: football, cheap beer, sex and fast-food. Either way, the consumer-driver illusion of "identity" makes plenty of money for those pulling the strings. Generally, those in the different consumer strata will never have real net wealth. If they do manage to escape the trawl nets, they'll be glorified and put on a pedestal for all to see. Without such celebrity "culture", the system can't operate.

I can't really accept anything you said for one simple reason, you mention sex as part of a specific sphere of social status. As far as I can see the sole purpose of social status of any kind is getting one's knob sucked by the people you want to suck it, therefore identifying sex as a mere aspect of a single social grouping seems absurd to me.

gulf

Deus Ex Machina wrote: »

I can't really accept anything you said for one simple reason, you mention sex as part of a specific sphere of social status. As far as I can see the sole purpose of social status of any kind is getting one's knob sucked by the people you want to suck it, therefore identifying sex as a mere aspect of a single social grouping seems absurd to me.

Stercus Accidit

I get told I have a south side twang at times, I'm only up here 5 years. I find it is more prevalent when I am speaking formally and so on, as I make an effort to annunciate and speak clearly, I guess they may be traits.

I do slur back into bog speak at times, it depends on what I am saying and to who, I don't need to be clear and careful with my speech among friends, unlike with a client negotiating terms or in a buyer/seller situation when the good speaking is rolled out.

By comparison, I find the gutters that spew forth the slurry that is the 'dubb' accent in its lazy slurred mess, tend to mix in the words 'f*cking c*nt, f*ck you ye f*cking ugly c*nt, ye whore' as heard from my neighbours in front of child.

If my sligo/meath accent is to die out naturally and take more and more from my surrounding accents, it will be the south side accent, not d4, but general mild dublin accent that I can use, no 'roysh bod, going to the wes for some scoops loike' but something anyway.

I will avoid like the plague the kind of speech the filth that live near me spew at their hopeless children in an effort to render my opinion of them even lower than their filthy clothes, stink, spots and bruises and hideous scowls have already achieved.

People pick up accents to an extent, but keep many traits of their old manner of speaking, as such I do get mistaken for a dub in town at times others its clear I'm a bog warrior, but I'll never be mistaken for a skanger, ever.

Wibbs

Dublin4Life wrote: »

I disagree guys , the accent itself represents old money in the south dublin area
and it sets us apart from the scum who are taking over our city by having 10 children with 10 different men

Like others have said it rarely enough represents "old money". It's an accent that's a result of a few things. Elocution lessons way back in the day, to take the edge off regional accents(usually, but not entirely from rural areas) of children whose parents climbed up the socioeconomic ladder in the 60's 70's when Dublin's population grew. They wanted to distance themselves from that past. There was also an element of wanting to sound more like received English speakers as that was the accent of the "big house". Girls schools in such areas had elocution classes(I knew a fair few women who attended such classes). I recall reading before that Ireland had one of the highest numbers of elocution teachers in europe at one point.

You can still spot the echo of the elocution/"speaking proper". EG Regional accents tend to drop "H"s, so "taut" instead of "Thought". "dis and dat" instead of "this and that". So the fear of dropping aitches is strong. So much so that the Dort/D4 accent adds them where not required. The classic is the word "Height". Irish people trying to "speak proper" add an aitch to the end so it becomes "heightH". It's very common. It's spread beyond the D4 type accent too. Write down width and height on a piece of paper and get your mates to read it out loud. A large amount will add the aitch. You hear it all the time with presenters and newsreaders. The ladies of TV3 are a charm for strangulated efforts to murder speech patterns in an effort to sound "proper".

So add in the economic boom and changes in Ireland since the mid 80's/early 90's and the earlier tribe seeking to create a class for themselves have added more and more members. So more and more are exposed to this telephone voice in the wild. It can still be an affectation, but now its so ingrained in many schools and areas and social spheres that to grow up in that environment and not have that accent to some degree or other would be difficult. It has become a valid speech pattern.

I can say that from personal experience such an accent was not around to any great degree when I was growing up in the 70's/early 80's and I attended a "rugger bugger" school. The kids who go to the same school today have it. I recall it being referred to as the Dort accent. The DART service only started in 1984. I also recall that when it did kick off people started to quickly ape it. More the ladies than the men at first.

[Deleted User]

Wibbs wrote: »

So much so that the Dort/D4 accent adds them where not required. The classic is the word "Height". Irish people trying to "speak proper" add an aitch to the end so it becomes "heightH".

This drives me up the wall. My mother is guilty of it too, and we're far from D4. Rothweiler, wroughth-iron...
:mad: She even refused to believe wrought iron didn't have a h at the end.

You can see it as well when people are talking about being "thought" in school.

ch750536

To give some insight into the D4 accent...

I'm english, have lived in many places and it takes about 2 years for me to get a local 'twang', be it Liverpool, Newcastle, Leeds, Glasgow... you get the idea.

Been on the west coast for 6 years, I sound very D4. Not purposely, it just happens.

So english with a hint of Irish sounds like D4?

Wibbs

bluewolf wrote: »

This drives me up the wall. My mother is guilty of it too, and we're far from D4. Rothweiler, wroughth-iron...
:mad: She even refused to believe wrought iron didn't have a h at the end.

You can see it as well when people are talking about being "thought" in school.

Yep and I reckon the cliched "roysh" is a sideways addition of an aitch onto right. RightH would sound just too daft, so they attempt to soften it another way. They avoid hard "T"'s like the plague. It was drummed into the generation before.

ch750536 wrote: »

To give some insight into the D4 accent...

I'm english, have lived in many places and it takes about 2 years for me to get a local 'twang', be it Liverpool, Newcastle, Leeds, Glasgow... you get the idea.

Been on the west coast for 6 years, I sound very D4. Not purposely, it just happens.

So english with a hint of Irish sounds like D4?

Depends on the english accent. If you mean a received english public school accent mixed with the softer consonant sounds of hiberno english, then that would be close enough. Though D4 has a far more nasally twang as an affectation. Throw in an approximation of the mid atlantic vowel sounds of an episode of the Hills and you're getting there. Estuary english or some other local british accent mixed in not so much.

Stands to reason I suppose. With some Irish people's insecurity with regard to the British, especially the British ruling classes, the temptation to "ape their betters" when establishing their own ruling class using received english as a template makes sense. They made it their own version of received ruling class hiberno english, which in one small way may be laudable. Kinda similar to the way we made up a very rich hiberno english heritage from the language of the conquerors.

It's very similar to british received english in another way. A british man or woman who has grown up and been schooled in such an accent sounds like another british man or woman of the same background, regardless of where they originate in britain. A scots public schoolboy is going to sound pretty close to a welsh or english one. Ditto with the D4 types here. There are D4 accents in galway, cork etc as well as dublin.