brianthebard wrote: » Yes they were QUB, QUC and QUG. I'm not sure about the education for lower class Catholics aspect though. If that was her intention then she failed because it wasn't until the NUI was set up that nationalists believed the Catholics had a university to represent them.
Fratton Fred wrote: » In order to get them approved by parliament, the anti reformists had to be appeased so it was ruled that no there would be no Catholic theology taught, so they effectively became secular colleges. The Primate of Ireland wasn't happy about this and the Pope decreed them "Godless" colleges and Catholics were forbidden from attending them. There is plenty on this in the UCC archives.
Fratton Fred wrote: » Queen Victoria fought toi get three colleges built in Ireland, Cork, Galway and Belfast. She wanted to improve the education of the less wealthy (and by that Catholics) who were effectively prevented from going to Trinity. She is effectively UCC's founder.
brianthebard wrote: » Well in that case it is incorrect to state that she effectively founded universities for the less wealthy and/or Catholics.
MarchDub wrote: » Victoria was no bleeding heart liberal as regards Ireland. Her vision was always limited to what would bolster the monarchy - anywhere. Robert Peel was the man behind the Queen's Colleges and he "sold" the idea - but not quite - to Victoria by naming them for her and explaining why they were necessary. Peel wrote to a correspondent that he hoped to wean wealthy Catholics away from O'Connell's repeal movement by establishing this education system. His bill for the Queen's Colleges passed in 1845. Victoria remained fairly skeptical about the value of Catholic education in Ireland though and even in 1873 wrote in a letter to her daughter that the University Bill of that year which failed to establish funding for Catholic education was the undoing of Gladstone, whom she hated. She wrote in sarcastic and almost gleeful tones "Good Mr G is not judicious and this "Mission" to redeem Ireland and which has signally failed - has been the cause of his defeat". Victoria favoured Disraeli who had beaten Gladstone in this bill.
Fratton Fred wrote: » The Primate of Ireland wasn't happy about this and the Pope decreed them "Godless" colleges and Catholics were forbidden from attending them.
Fratton Fred wrote: » The colleges were to be non-denominational so anyone could go. it wasn't her fault Pope Pius ****ed it up.
Fratton Fred wrote: » Why? The intention was to advance education in Ireland, basically for people who could not, for one reason or another, attend Trinity. The colleges were to be non-denominational so anyone could go. it wasn't her fault Pope Pius ****ed it up.
Fratton Fred wrote: » your summation surprises me. nothing I have read has made me think that Victoria would have wanted anything but education for all. She may have disliked Gladstone, but that is a different matter, surely? I would have thought that the act to replace the colleges she personally had a hand in would have been against her wishes anyway.
CDfm wrote: » Fred you are not that type of guy who doesnt understand the priveleged position enjoyed by the Church of Ireland especially prior to its disestablishment in 1869. It wasnt Pope Pius that put the rules of goverance for the colleges in place or restricted the teaching of catholic theology in the same way that Church of Ireland Theology was taught Freely in colleges. It also ignores the constitutional position of Queen Victoria as Head of the Church of England and the political reality that arose with that. Thats not the same as saying all religions were being treated equally or that all people would be treated equally. I am not nesscessarily saying that the Church leadership in Ireland was right but I can understand their skepticism.
MarchDub wrote: » If Peel - and Victoria - wanted to "please" the Irish base they would have established Catholic Universities, however this was not granted. The idea for what eventually became the Queens Colleges came originally from a select committee formed in 1835 for Foundation Schools and Education in Ireland. Victoria wasn't even on the throne then. In the face of Catholic Emancipation they were aware that there would be British government resistance against too much Catholic power in Ireland and suggested inter-denominational schools. This of course all ran counter to requests from the Catholic Church for funding for a Catholic University. Peel took up the select committee's idea in 1845 - but by then the idea of any theological teaching had been put aside - and called them Queens Colleges. And trouble ensued.
Fratton Fred wrote: » The Churches wanted to control education. that wasn't/isn't restricted to any denomination. Educated people ask questions and are less likely to take the word of a preacher so if you can control the education you can control the questions. The idea of the Queens Colleges was to encourage a broader education and to act as an alternative to Trinity. The protestants (for want of a better term) were uncomfortable with the possibility of Catholic theology being taught, so it was decided to ban all teaching of theology (not a bad move some would say).
Pope Pius was involved somewhere along the line because i believe Paul Cullen brought it to his attention, who was himself very very anti.
Thomas Davis by the way heavily supported the colleges, but was criticised for this by O'Connell.
I don't think any side is whiter than white, but, at the end of the day, the colleges were practically founded by Queen Victoria, so it is probably appropriate that her statue is there. The one in Dun Laoghaire though...............
Fratton Fred wrote: » would the term run before you can walk, or one step at a time not apply?
MarchDub wrote: » Not sure how you quantify "a lot" - as I said on another thread Patrick Bronte had little love for things Irish. He left Ireland and never literally looked back. I have no problem with that - it was his life to live, but I wouldn't quote him as typical or representative.
CDfm wrote: » I dont think that Patrick Bronte was a bad guy -he was of his era. It cant have been a nice thing to bury 3 out 0f 4 of your kids who died of TB. I think I read somewhere that he liked to start the morning firing his pistols out the window to keep them in working order. So moving to the UK for a better life was probably for better expectations for his kids to including living longer. I just wonder was he bitter that that didnt happen. Were any of the daughters Irish born???
getz wrote: » h,ludsites were still around and this was in weaving country,every morning he would fire off his pistol over the church yard at the church tower because gunpowder soon got wet,he even got emily to do it,if you go to howarth today you can see all the indents in the church tower,
getz wrote: » there was a lot of hero worship for nelson in ireland at that time,irishman the rev patrick bronte [father of charlotte,emily, and anne,] changed his name from brunty to take one of nelsons titles duke of bronte.
UltimateMale wrote: » Anyway, the head of the statue actually survived intact and can be seen in the Pearse St Liberary in Dublin. Kiss me Hardy, kiss me
UltimateMale wrote: » Interesting, whenever Fred Fratton posts, getz is never far away ? Anyway, the head of the statue actually survived intact and can be seen in the Pearse St Liberary in Dublin. Kiss me Hardy, kiss me
getz wrote: » do you only post on these posters, to put forward your ant-brit rants or havent you anything constructive to say ?sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.
getz wrote: » remember irish attitude had change a lot from the 1850s,the attempt to wipe out their british history only started after the 1940s
brianthebard wrote: » CDfm - I lol'd.
MarchDub wrote: » Don't know what "British history" you might mean.
CDfm wrote: » It cant have been a nice thing to bury 3 out 0f 4 of your kids who died of TB.
CDfm wrote: » So moving to the UK for a better life was probably for better expectations for his kids to including living longer. I just wonder was he bitter that that didnt happen. Were any of the daughters Irish born???
brianthebard wrote: » If you have a problem with a post report it don't respond. /Mod. CDfm - I lol'd.
MarchDub wrote: » All his children died before he did. Patrick Bronte had distanced himself from his own family while still in Ireland. He was one of 10 children. He left them at 16 and became a tutor elsewhere in county Down. Some years later he got a chance to go to over to Cambridge and become a clergyman and took it- he was in the mid 20s by then. He did not single handedly educate his own children. The Bronte children were sent to school for a while, both in England and later in Belgium - in fact Jane Eyre's early experiences are based partly on this not too good memory of life in an English clergy run school. Both Elizabeth and Maria Bronte died as a result of catching "fever" at the school. There are surviving horrific descriptions of life at the school including cruelty and near starvation conditions. But it was an inexpensive education. When later on they were at all at home it was the surviving eldest, Charlotte, who gave the younger ones lessons. The father paid a tutor to come and teach them drawing. Patrick Bronte believed that drawing and art were careers worth following and hoped that his son Branwell could become a great artist. Didn’t happen. Branwell had a serious drug addiction and died at 31. Charlotte’s experiences in the Belgium school were more interesting - in fact far too interesting for Elizabeth Gaskell to include in her biography for Victorian readers. Charlotte, then in her twenties, was there to learn French but developed "a relationship" with her male instructor. Her sister Emily was there also. Many, many Irish born authors are included on the English language curriculum in Universities around the world. James Joyce is probably the most consistent in this. Certainly on US campuses.
getz wrote: » both fred and myself have a lot in common,both of us were born in england and partly educated in the irish republic,i was brought up in a irish working class area of manchester he most likely in a posh area of southern england,both of us have a love of ireland and the irish,and both of us spend a lot of are time in the republic,i live nearer to ireland than i do to fred,but i believe we are in the position to be able to give a more balanced view than many, i have yet to meet a irishman who dident like me or i dident like,mind you i have a few english men who i couldent stand,if i could afford to i would be quite happy to live in ireland,just as many irish do in england ,nothing i ever post is anti-irish ,by the way it was the IRA who destroyed the column,not the irish people[unless you think the IRA area the ones who run ireland,not the goverment]
