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Norway's 150km of Motorway, what other countries do we have more motorway than?

darkman2

Norway, despite it's oil wealth, only has 150km's of actual motorway in the state. That astonished me. I expected far more then that. Got me thinking what other European countries does Ireland have more motorway then?

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nordydan

Norway is a much bigger, less sparsely populated and hilly country. It does not need a motorway network like we do. We can route around all our mountain ranges, they cannot

D.L.R.

Norway's capital also has an invention called a "Metro". Maybe they couldn't have afforded to build it if they spent billions connecting their provincial towns by motorway.

veryangryman

Hello? So do we - its called the DART.

And yes its far from comprehensive, but you can still get North Dublin - Bray handy enough with it

runway16

D.L.R. wrote: »

Norway's capital also has an invention called a "Metro". Maybe they couldn't have afforded to build it if they spent billions connecting their provincial towns by motorway.

As you well know, the Motorway Network connects the regions to the Capital City, as well as region to region. What you seem to be advocating is that decent roads for the nation should have been scrapped in favour of great public transport for one city.

Both things needed to happen, the Motorways were done first, and they will benefit the whole country. Had this economic mess not happened, you can be quite sure that public transport for Dublin would be proceeding apace. I live in Dublin, but im not so naive to think that every penny should be spent here.

Godge

runway16 wrote: »

As you well know, the Motorway Network connects the regions to the Capital City, as well as region to region. What you seem to be advocating is that decent roads for the nation should have been scrapped in favour of great public transport for one city.

Both things needed to happen, the Motorways were done first, and they will benefit the whole country. Had this economic mess not happened, you can be quite sure that public transport for Dublin would be proceeding apace. I live in Dublin, but im not so naive to think that every penny should be spent here.

The motorways were done first all right but overdone is the correct word. The M1, M4, M7 and M8 are more than justified but the M3 and M9 are not needed yet compared to other projects. The extension of the DART, the LUAS and Metro North are more important.

The importance of Dublin to the country as a whole should not be understated. As jobs keep getting lost all over the country, it seems to me that the only positive announcements from the IDA cover Dublin. Why? Because it is the capital, because it is densely populated etc.

Mr Ed

Godge wrote: »

but the M3 and M9 are not needed yet compared to other projects. The extension of the DART, the LUAS and Metro North are more important.

Have you driven on the old N9? It's one of the worst National roads in the country.

The motorway at least improves the infrastructure in the South East Region by making it easily accessible and shortens the travelling time between Waterford & Dublin.

We don't get much government investment down here, at least this is almost complete.

Godge

Mr Ed wrote: »

Have you driven on the old N9? It's one of the worst National roads in the country.

The motorway at least improves the infrastructure in the South East Region by making it easily accessible and shortens the travelling time between Waterford & Dublin.

We don't get much government investment down here, at least this is almost complete.

Read my post, I didn't say it wasn't needed at all, I said that public transport in Dublin should have taken greater priority.

It is time we realised that there are no regions in ireland. In European terms, Ireland, as a small island, is doing well to be called a region in its own right.

runway16

Godge wrote: »

Read my post, I didn't say it wasn't needed at all, I said that public transport in Dublin should have taken greater priority.

It is time we realised that there are no regions in ireland. In European terms, Ireland, as a small island, is doing well to be called a region in its own right.

I agree that "regionalisation" of Ireland is really more in people's heads then in fact, but my point stands that we needed a motorway network and public transport solutions for Dublin, and that one wasnt more important than the other.

Anyway, i dont want to start a pissing match on which should have been done first, as there are already too many such threads on here about priorities and what should be done first etc. As you can see, im new to these boards, and an observation has been that there are too much negativity on them, so I dont want to start off in that fashion!:):)

Im just happy that Ireland has made progress on transport and hope for more of the same to come.

Back to the thread starters comments: I feel he wasnt actually trying to knock Norway as some seem to think, but rather he was just surprised that such a wealthy nation didnt have more of them. In Norway, the effectiveness of a national motorway network is probably in question due to the terrain issues, and large distances, as well as sparse population. Domestic air travel seems to be the favoured mode between large cities owing to the factors above. Motorways may simply not be a good choice for Norway.

Other countries where they are few and far between are difficult to find in Europe because of population density. Norway is perhaps one of the few examples.

Zebra3

darkman2 wrote: »

Norway, despite it's oil wealth, only has 150km's of actual motorway in the state. That astonished me. I expected far more then that. Got me thinking what other European countries does Ireland have more motorway then?

Albania, Montenegro, and all the microstates for sure. Prob the three Baltic states and Moldova too. And maybe Iceland.

Edit:Just realised the question wasn't even confined to Europe so there's loads more countries. What a pointless question.

nordydan

I was in Norway a few years ago, Oslo. Not the best city in thw world. Anyway, outside of the Oslo/Bergen commuter belts people just fly everywhere. Unless they're getting the booze boat to Denmark, where everything is (relatively cheap).
Train to Bergen is supposed to be nice though, after the first few hours out of Oslo. But no further motorways are required!

Jayuu

This also doesn't address how good the non-motorway sections of road are.

The problem for the most part in Ireland is that one you come off the motorways, the other national routes can vary in standard from 2+2 to narrow single carraigeway. Maybe the Norwegian secondary routes are of a standard that negates the need for motorways.

Norwayviking

darkman2 wrote: »

Norway, despite it's oil wealth, only has 150km's of actual motorway in the state. That astonished me. I expected far more then that. Got me thinking what other European countries does Ireland have more motorway then?

Which the politicians have planned to do something with since the late 60s,but like others said here.
Its easier to make a motorway trough a flat countryside in ireland than it is to go trough tons of granite in Norway.

Sponge Bob

To build an all weather road between Oslo and Bergen ( = Dublin - Cork in Norway) required the worlds longest road tunnel. be built.

It passes under these mountains in Aurland

Zoney

Kind of puts the "bog of doom" in perspective (and that's one of the very few real show-stoppers here in Ireland)!

spacetweek

darkman2 wrote: »

Norway, despite it's oil wealth, only has 150km's of actual motorway in the state. That astonished me. I expected far more then that. Got me thinking what other European countries does Ireland have more motorway then?

I'm surprised you thought Norway would have more than this! I've been there and it's an extremely sparsely populated country where maintaining a big road network is extremely difficult, what with isolation, snow, etc.

Note that the CIA claim it has 664 km of expressways - but many of these are single carriageway and don't really count.

Another notable fact about Norway is that you have to pay electronic tolls even on single carriageways! The E134 road from Stavanger to Oslo is an example.

Finally, as for metro vs. motorways: Norway doesn't need motorways, but Oslo needed a subway. Ireland and Dublin need both.

spacetweek

Zebra3 wrote: »

Albania, Montenegro, and all the microstates for sure. Prob the three Baltic states and Moldova too. And maybe Iceland.

Iceland doesn't even have dual carriageways!

There are no motorways at all in the Baltic States. Lithuania is listed in many sources as having motorways, but they aren't - in the aerial photos on Gmaps you can see all the at-grade accesses.

nordydan wrote: »

I was in Norway a few years ago, Oslo. Not the best city in thw world. Anyway, outside of the Oslo/Bergen commuter belts people just fly everywhere. Unless they're getting the booze boat to Denmark, where everything is (relatively cheap).

Only saw Haugesund (Ryanair fly there), but loooooved Norway. Beautiful.

Yes, flying is the way to go in Norway. Trains are great but little used outside of Oslo. Driving is far too slow - Stavanger to Oslo is 7 hours of hilly mountainy roads and tunnels. I can't even imagine how long it would take to drive to Lapland. You'd have to be mad.

Zoney wrote: »

Kind of puts the "bog of doom" in perspective (and that's one of the very few real show-stoppers here in Ireland)!

Yes! And we could so easily have avoided it - it's tiny!

To answer the OP: Wealth has nothing to do with it. Motorways simply aren't needed in a country like Norway. They just wouldn't serve transport needs effectively. Too little gain for so much cost, maintenance, hassle, and slow journey times.

Tabnabs

A (trucker) guide to driving in Norway (pdf)
http://www.vegvesen.no/_attachment/71419/binary/38454

Most of the main roads in Norway are of this standard

They are well maintained and well policed.

But occasionally things get a lot more interesting

But public transport (Bergen, Norway's second city with 250k people is about to begin their new tram system) and shipping plays a much larger role in transport integration over there. Plus tolls actually go to pay for road infrastructure and not just into the state coffers.

But while we still pi$$ about wondering if we should build a rail link to the airport, they have recently upgraded their airport train in Oslo to this beauty

Airport to main train station - 19 minutes...

Oslo city population is 575k BTW

ardmacha

Plus tolls actually go to pay for road infrastructure

we have that in common, at least.

Sponge Bob

Map from around 2000. Think it comes from the Lithuanian NRA equivalent

Norwayviking

darkman2 wrote: »

Norway, despite it's oil wealth, only has 150km's of actual motorway in the state. That astonished me. I expected far more then that. Got me thinking what other European countries does Ireland have more motorway then?

And The motorway in Norway is paid for by norwegian taxmoney,Not the EU like in Ireland.

Sponge Bob

Norwayviking wrote: »

And The motorway in Norway is paid for by norwegian taxmoney,Not the EU like in Ireland.

The EU did not pay for the bulk of them and the Norwegian taxpayer quite possibly did through the SWF

Norwayviking

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The EU did not pay for the bulk of them and the Norwegian taxpayer quite possibly did through the SWF

Are you sure?

The new motorway was financed by Eurolink (technical consultants PM Group and Symonds) from three sources:

Two Spanish banks – Banco Bilbao Vizcaya Argentaria SA and Banco Santander Central Hispano SA
European Investment Bank (EIB) – a bank owned by the Member States of the European Union, which invests in necessary EU infrastructure
Funds from Cintra and SIAC the Eurolink partners

And the pension fund havent been touched by anyone in Norway yet as far as i know.Its beeing sent out of the country in foreign investments.

Sponge Bob

Norwayviking wrote: »

Its been sent out of the country in foreign investments.

Ah Ha!!!!

Norwayviking

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Ah Ha!!!!

For the generations to come.At present valued at NOK 2.308 trillions

L1011

EIB funding != EU paying for. EIB loans need to be paid back

IIRC the average EU funding of NDP1 road projects was 6% and the average funding for NDP2 ones is... 0%

Norwayviking

MYOB wrote: »

EIB funding != EU paying for. EIB loans need to be paid back

IIRC the average EU funding of NDP1 road projects was 6% and the average funding for NDP2 ones is... 0%

http://www.ndp.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/eu_structural_funds/overview/structural_funds.htm&mn=euso&nID=3

http://www.roadtraffic-technology.com/projects/kilcock/

Thats what i could find.But maybe its wrong.And the loans are paid back by toll on the motorway.

L1011

3.35Bn in total, of which about 1Bn was for road/rail insfracture, over the time period of NDP1 is about 6% of total funding, as I said. NDP1 ended in 2006 and covered a lot of single carriageway road improvements which have already been bypassed. The motorway network has mostly been built under NDP2.

The toll roads with EIB funding will be repaying the EIB loans from their toll revenue. They are loans, not grants.

The "the EU paid for Ireland's roads" myth needs to die.

spacetweek

Dyflin wrote: »

Plus tolls actually go to pay for road infrastructure and not just into the state coffers.

Dunno what you mean - they don't go into state coffers here, they're spent on maintenance of the tolled stretch and repayment of debt.

Norwayviking wrote: »

And The motorway in Norway is paid for by norwegian taxmoney,Not the EU like in Ireland.

A cheap shot! Roads aren't paid for by the EU in Ireland, contrary to popular belief.

Norwayviking

MYOB wrote: »

3.35Bn in total, of which about 1Bn was for road/rail insfracture, over the time period of NDP1 is about 6% of total funding, as I said. NDP1 ended in 2006 and covered a lot of single carriageway road improvements which have already been bypassed. The motorway network has mostly been built under NDP2.

The toll roads with EIB funding will be repaying the EIB loans from their toll revenue. They are loans, not grants.

The "the EU paid for Ireland's roads" myth needs to die.

But my point beiing that EU has sponsored parts of it anyway,and to compare that to Norways infrastructure is a bit out in the blue.
We are talking two totally different countries both in economy and landscape and infrastructure.

L1011

spacetweek wrote: »

Dunno what you mean - they don't go into state coffers here, they're spent on maintenance of the tolled stretch and repayment of debt.

VAT from the tolls, and depending on contract and traffic levels, a revenue share do go to the exchequer and the NRA respectively.