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Shooting in Cumbria [READ MOD NOTES IN POST #1 BEFORE POSTING OR READING]

Sparks

Mod Note:
This is the merged thread on the shootings in Cumbria and their aftermath, re-opened after a week or two, the moratorium being for the purposes of basic human decency.

We'd just like to remind everyone to take a re-read of the charter before posting here and to keep things civil. While we may face calls for legislative change as a result of this tragedy, many families have lost far more, and it would be appreciated if noone posted anything that they would never say face-to-face about this.

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Grizzly 45

from the usual suspects John Fitzgerald in todays Indo...
Any organisation or individual going to respond en masse for a change....Or will it be left to "the Few" of Boards.ieagain????:rolleyes:

Friday June 04 2010

In the wake of the tragic mass murders in Cumbria, I suggest we need to address our own growing gun culture in Ireland, where in excess of 220,000 firearms are legally held by citizens.
The problem, however, is that the vast majority of guns used in non-gangland murders, in suicides, in attempts to kill or injure a spouse or partner in domestic disputes, or in killings legally defined as manslaughter cases in Ireland, are legally held.
The weapons that Derrick Bird used to kill 12 people and injure scores of others were, according to media reports, a hunting rifle and a shotgun. Both types of guns are widely on sale and are easily accessible in Ireland.
A measure that would make guns safer in our country would be to have all of them micro-chipped or electronically tagged in such a way that the gardai or other statutory controlling authority could track the movement of each weapon at all times.
This would be a variation on the proposed micro-chipping of dogs contained in the draft Dog Breeding Establishments Bill -- the aim being simply to keep tabs on every gun in the country.
Otherwise we take our chances with those 220,000 guns out there and their 220,000 owners.
John Fitzgerald
Co Kilkenny

Irish Independent

Tackleberrywho

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

from the usual suspects John Fitzgerald in todays Indo...
Any organisation or individual going to respond en masse for a change....Or will it be left to "the Few" of Boards.ieagain????:rolleyes:

Friday June 04 2010

In the wake of the tragic mass murders in Cumbria, I suggest we need to address our own growing gun culture in Ireland, where in excess of 220,000 firearms are legally held by citizens.
The problem, however, is that the vast majority of guns used in non-gangland murders, in suicides, in attempts to kill or injure a spouse or partner in domestic disputes, or in killings legally defined as manslaughter cases in Ireland, are legally held.
The weapons that Derrick Bird used to kill 12 people and injure scores of others were, according to media reports, a hunting rifle and a shotgun. Both types of guns are widely on sale and are easily accessible in Ireland.
A measure that would make guns safer in our country would be to have all of them micro-chipped or electronically tagged in such a way that the gardai or other statutory controlling authority could track the movement of each weapon at all times.
This would be a variation on the proposed micro-chipping of dogs contained in the draft Dog Breeding Establishments Bill -- the aim being simply to keep tabs on every gun in the country.
Otherwise we take our chances with those 220,000 guns out there and their 220,000 owners.
John Fitzgerald
Co Kilkenny

Irish Independent

One word For Fitz "Looder"

Sparks

Any NGB replying to a man with a criminal conviction writing in a pseudo-tabloid is only going to use that NGB's reputation to boost his. Frankly, anyone writing in response is risking the same, though the risk is somewhat lower.

One of these days, he'll make the mistake of identifying one individual (or a sufficiently small group) in one of his diatribes - or they'll change the law so that you can defame a large group - and then he can be sued for defamation and that should put a stop to this nonsense. Until then, all we could do is shout impotently at him or spend our time more productively.

Half-cocked

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

A measure that would make guns safer in our country would be to have all of them micro-chipped or electronically tagged in such a way that the gardai or other statutory controlling authority could track the movement of each weapon at all times.
This would be a variation on the proposed micro-chipping of dogs contained in the draft Dog Breeding Establishments Bill -- the aim being simply to keep tabs on every gun in the country.
Otherwise we take our chances with those 220,000 guns out there and their 220,000 owners.
John Fitzgerald
Co Kilkenny

Irish Independent

Actually, this makes a lot of sense! Why not take his argument to its logical conclusion and chip every person in the country, either at birth, or upon entry into the State? That way the gardai or other statutory controlling authority could track the movement of each individual at all times.

Otherwise we take our chances with those 4,000,000+ people out there, any one of whom could commit a crime at any given moment!!!!

Sparks

Because we don't have to. We can already track everyone in the country to within a few dozen yards using their mobile phones.

Grizzly 45

Gardaí insist gun laws are as tough as they can be to stop mass killings

RONAN McGREEVY
THE STATE’S gun laws are as stringent as they can be to prevent a mass shooting similar to the one in Cumbria this week, according to a senior garda.
Supt John Gilligan said at Garda headquarters in Dublin yesterday that there was as much “legislation as you can have” to deal with such an eventuality.
The Garda announced yesterday a national firearms licensing awareness day for June 16th in advance of a deadline for people holding firearms to switch over to a new licensing system on July 1st.
There will also be advertisements in local newspapers aimed at the farming community.
The legislation was brought in to deal with gun crime. It includes a ban on handguns, a requirement for referees, background medical checks and standards for the keeping of all guns, with tightened licensing procedures for the renewal of currently licensed guns.
It also provides for a comprehensive audit of all firearm owners to be conducted by each superintendent in every Garda district.
Though the original provisions of the new laws were aimed at gangland criminals, the awareness campaign is for law-abiding gun owners.
Supt Gilligan said the campaign to regularise licences under the provision of the Criminal Justice (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 was obviously decided before the actions of Derrick Bird, who killed himself and 11 people in a shooting spree in Cumbria on Wednesday afternoon.
He conceded the issue was now topical, although such an incident had never happened in Ireland.
“Even before this new legislation, local sergeants and superintendents have always had a role in deciding the suitability of anybody to hold a licence.
“People have had their firearms taken off them because they did something stupid by producing a shotgun at the gate to somebody. That happens on a regular basis anyway.”
Under the provisions of the Act, all gun owners must have a new three-year firearms certificate to replace the old one-year certificate. The new three-year licence costs €80 and the collection of fees has been outsourced to An Post.
Every new gun holder must also have a new firearm training certificate.
When the Government brought in the new Act last year, licensed gun holders were given a free extension of their existing licences to facilitate the change over from the old to the new.
The last batch of 25,000 licence holders will have to be renewed by June 30th. Those who fail to swap over may have their firearms seized and face prosecution.
Gardaí will be available on June 16th at Garda stations between 10am and 6pm to assist in filling out the application form to receive the new certificate.
“We’re trying to target people who live in a rural area who hold one shotgun,” said Supt Fergus Healy of the Garda crime policy and administration section. “They are the main category of people who have not come forward to licence their gun.
“We don’t want a situation where we find a lot of people in possession of firearms which have not been regularised or certified.”
He said applicants had to consent to allow a superintendent to make inquiries about their background if necessary. “Each case is judged on its own merits, but there is a provision in the legislation to allow for a superintendent to make whatever checks are necessary, and the person must show willingness to co-operate with the superintendent.”
Background checks into the man who carried out the Cumbrian shootings found that he had only a minor conviction and was not known to have any mental health problems.

thedragon

Ive been watching this since it all took place in Cumbria and for sure we're going to bare the brunt of the fallout.

The thruth is as the last poster said, this could happen here just as easy at any time and for no apparent reason.

Justice for sure will have to look into measures to inhibit this terrible possibility and in doing so they will probably find themselves up against a brick wall.

The Dept of justice are not fools and dont anyone ever think they are but they do need to make efforts in securing our general population.

They are also very aware that crimes commited with firearms are crimes that would be commited with or without firearms. I mean to say that had the criminal not had access to a gun he would use some other means to carry out his criminal activity. Justice know this and to be honest, would it not make us a safer place to be if we did have to go into a psychological evaluation in order to succeed in our firearms applications.

The thruth about this terrible atrocity in Cumria is that it was carried out with firearms which is a major blow for the shooting fraternity for sure.

If Mr Bird didnt have access to firearms at the time, I think he would have done something equally as devastating with some other means do so. Possibly he could have started a series of murders or drove his car into a playground full of kids or something. He just happened to use a gun. You dont need guns to kill you just need madmen with intention. The DOJ know
this and should take into account that we're not the criminals, the criminals are the ones they need to factor into any future legislation.

Grizzly 45

One of these days, he'll make the mistake of identifying one individual (or a sufficiently small group) in one of his diatribes - or they'll change the law so that you can defame a large group - and then he can be sued for defamation and that should put a stop to this nonsense. Until then, all we could do is shout impotently at him or spend our time more productively.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm,I would have thought Mrs Bernie Wrights comments this year at the coursing in Clonmel where she compared anyone at the meeting or who particapate in fieldsports as "no better than padeophiles".If not libellous than at least attackable under the incitement to hatred acts??

Half-cocked

Sparks wrote: »

Because we don't have to. We can already track everyone in the country to within a few dozen yards using their mobile phones.

So I leave my phone at home when I head out on a crime spree:D

But seriously, does this character really think chipping firearms will remove the risk of a gun owner breaking the law? If so, can we chip all motor vehicles please? They are killing 100's of people very year and injuring 1000's. The technology exists to fit data loggers to every vehicle in the State and prosecute every driver who's logger shows he/she speeded - a recognized major contributor to road deaths. Here's a real and current danger to the citizenry of the State. But that won't happen, it will be a breach of our civil liberties, and this character and his ilk will be the first to jump up and down about it in the media if it ever happened. But gun owners aren't entitled to civil liberties,are we? We signed those away when we signed that application form for a license!!!;)

Grizzly 45

Justice know this and to be honest, would it not make us a safer place to be if we did have to go into a psychological evaluation in order to succeed in our firearms applications.

Er Not really,as athe Germans are doing this with new shooters who are coming into the sport.There has already been uproar about it,as with anything medical professionals differ in their opinion.One lad was classed as borderline nutter by a state appointed shrink for gun saftey.He went away and got himself checked out,and was found by another to be 100% fit mentally.Now he is sueing the State.Look, it is bad enough having to deal with the Gardai/DoJ here about a relatively normal procedure of liscensing a gun without having to add the medical profession to this list of opponents.The thought of having to fight the medical council as well in the court for a mis diagnosis regarding your FAC,should send shivvers down anyones spine who shoots here.:eek:

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Hmmm,I would have thought Mrs Bernie Wrights comments this year at the coursing in Clonmel where she compared anyone at the meeting or who particapate in fieldsports as "no better than padeophiles".If not libellous than at least attackable under the incitement to hatred acts??

Nope, 'fraid not. You can't defame (it's not libel or slander anymore, they've replaced those two with a single new defamation act earlier this year) a large enough group of people. On the other hand, that also means we can't be sued for defamation when people here post that the Gardai are incompetent at firearms licencing or that the government are all crooks, so it's swings and roundabouts in that sense.

Half-cocked wrote: »

this character and his ilk will be the first to jump up and down about it in the media if it ever happened.

No, it won't be, it'll be us.
And we know that, because it's already happened when they changed the law so that 2nd provisional licence holders couldn't drive alone - the uproar from the general public was so bad that they delayed it for several months knowing that that would cost several lives.

And if they tried doing anything like chipping here - or more practically, installing hard speed limiters so you physically couldn't go past 120kph, which would save hundreds of lives a year - it'd be Joe Public who'd be first in line to complain that he shouldn't have to limit his car to the maximum legal speed he could drive it at, and to vote against whomever introduced the measure.

Look, people like Fitzgerald are the scum of the earth for doing things like this - the bodies aren't even buried by the families, and he's using their deaths as callously and cynically as he can to further his own personal agenda. I'd just rather we didn't prostitute ourselves the same way because then we're basicly him with a slightly different theme tune. Give the families at least a few days to bury their dead, and then we'll talk about how we respond to the tragedy and those who're using it like it was some sort of tool. But this Daily Mirror approach to it, sticking cameras in everyones face and competing for the largest amount of media exposure in tomorrow's chip wrappers, that's just obscene, and I don't think we should have any part in it.

WallysWorld

What exactly does he mean by a chip?? If its just to keep track of who owns what then surely that function is already served by the serial number?

Or those he mean something different?

meathstevie

And all this while one David Cameron who happens to be the prime minister of the United Kingdom speaks against an irrational reaction towards gun ownership.

Sparks

Didn't Cameron do some deerstalking? (Rather a lot of it in fact?)

Odysseus

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Er Not really,as athe Germans are doing this with new shooters who are coming into the sport.There has already been uproar about it,as with anything medical professionals differ in their opinion.One lad was classed as borderline nutter by a state appointed shrink for gun saftey.He went away and got himself checked out,and was found by another to be 100% fit mentally.Now he is sueing the State.Look, it is bad enough having to deal with the Gardai/DoJ here about a relatively normal procedure of liscensing a gun without having to add the medical profession to this list of opponents.The thought of having to fight the medical council as well in the court for a mis diagnosis regarding your FAC,should send shivvers down anyones spine who shoots here.:eek:

Your spot on here, I work in a psychological/mental health position. It's too hard to get a consensus on diagnoses. Too be honest I have difficulties with the current procedure with the GP. Though I wonder how often this happens, from speaking to GPs I work with they have been asked occasionally about an application, but it appears it not a frequent thing either. I know my own GP was not asked on my three applications in the past year.

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

Didn't Cameron do some deerstalking? (Rather a lot of it in fact?)

Yeah, I believe due to political pressure he's been keeping away from it for a while, but he's pretty big into his country sports.

Tackleberrywho

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Yeah, I believe due to political pressure he's been keeping away from it for a while, but he's pretty big into his country sports.

As a conservative he should in Theory be ion the side of hunters/shooters. As a PM new in the job, he has to play Polotics so you'd never know what might happen.

juice1304

WallysWorld wrote: »

What exactly does he mean by a chip?? If its just to keep track of who owns what then surely that function is already served by the serial number?

Or those he mean something different?

he means a RFID chip the same chip thats in your passport, or in a car remote, they also use them for pets.

what a stupid idea, lets also chip all of our kitchen knifes and bows while we are at it.

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

Nope, 'fraid not. You can't defame (it's not libel or slander anymore, they've replaced those two with a single new defamation act earlier this year) a large enough group of people. On the other hand, that also means we can't be sued for defamation when people here post that the Gardai are incompetent at firearms licencing or that the government are all crooks, so it's swings and roundabouts in that sense.

HmmmI wonder if our Muslim friends would agree with that Sparks...;):D
They seem to get riled at the slightest thing,and if Mr Fitz or Mrs Wright had said that about them.I would say by sundown tonight ,there would be a Fatwah issued from the Mosques in Ireland,and those two would be taking up residence with Salman Rushdie,wherever he is.:eek::eek::eek:
What I am saying is;if you dont make enough noiuse about somthing anymore,you get no press mediawhore coverage,no politicans say anything,nothing changes.It is unfortuneatly now who shouts first,longer and louder gets what they want these days.

.

Look, people like Fitzgerald are the scum of the earth for doing things like this - the bodies aren't even buried by the families, and he's using their deaths as callously and cynically as he can to further his own personal agenda. I'd just rather we didn't prostitute ourselves the same way because then we're basicly him with a slightly different theme tune. Give the families at least a few days to bury their dead, and then we'll talk about how we respond to the tragedy and those who're using it like it was some sort of tool. But this Daily Mirror approach to it, sticking cameras in everyones face and competing for the largest amount of media exposure in tomorrow's chip wrappers, that's just obscene, and I don't think we should have any part in it.

I agree with you 100% on the moral aspect Sparks,but not on the practical aspect.We will be backfooted again like after Dunblane.:(

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

I wonder if our Muslim friends would agree with that Sparks...;):D

Doesn't matter if they do or not Grizzly, they still can't sue for defamation. Blasphemy, maybe, but that's another show...

a Fatwah issued from the Mosques in Ireland

So your approach to preventing a PR backlash from a tragedy like this is to issue death threats? That's somewhat sub-optimal...

I agree with you 100% on the moral aspect Sparks,but not on the practical aspect.We will be backfooted again like after Dunblane.:(

No, we won't be. We weren't backfooted after Dunblane, the British shooters were, and that happened because there was a general election on at the time; at the moment, their latest election is now done and dusted, and their prime minister has been hunting deer for 20 years and they'd have to take on the farmers to ban the firearms used. It's highly unlikely that Labour could gather sufficient political momentum to get a ban brought in, especially with everyone so focussed on economic matters and trying to save their own jobs.

Grizzly 45

So your approach to preventing a PR backlash from a tragedy like this is to issue death threats? That's somewhat sub-optimal...

The Sun I see brings out your pendantic streak again..:rolleyes:
I am saying that bis what THAT group would do were they to be called somthing THEY didnt like...Didnt say WE go and do it???:rolleyes::rolleyes:

No, we won't be. We weren't backfooted after Dunblane, the British shooters were,

And of COURSE the Irish Govt will NEVER compare the gun laws or ownership here to the UK to the USA????? "we dont want a US style gun culture here." Could come from Parrot Aherne tomrrow "we dont want a Cumbria style tragedy"Sorry,I remember post Dunblane alot of politicans smugly congrautling themselves that we didnt have handguns here so a Dunblane style massacre would be impossible.I dont buy it Sparks...

,

and their prime minister has been hunting deer for 20 years and they'd have to take on the farmers to ban the firearms used. It's highly unlikely that Labour could gather sufficient political momentum to get a ban brought in, especially with everyone so focussed on economic matters and trying to save their own jobs.

Who happens to be in a close minority colation with the Lib Des who are not exactly gunfriendly ,and could push for "somthing to be done."Going to be tricky,as there predictions this wont last 12 months.
Labour wasted more Commons time discussing the Foxhunting ban than they did on the war in Iraq!!
They ignored the countryside totally in their dictatorship of 15 plus years in the UK.So dont underestimate them either for crackpottedness.
The only advantage is that most politicans who do shoot over there and the Lords are DBBL,gunowner,and are not likely to be willing to give up their H&H or Purdeys to be smelted down.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

The Sun I see brings out your pendantic streak again..:rolleyes:
I am saying that bis what THAT group would do were they to be called somthing THEY didnt like...Didnt say WE go and do it???:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Then why mention it at all?
See how easily a notion like that can get tied up in a few seconds and go from clever and witty across-the-pint conversation to complete public media nightmare?

And of COURSE the Irish Govt will NEVER compare the gun laws or ownership here to the UK to the USA?

Of course they will, but worrying about whether or not they will and how to prevent it is like worrying about whether or not the car that's about to run you down is deisel or petrol.
The reason they make those comparisons is because they support whatever argument they're making at the time - if comparing us to Papua New Guinea was required to support their argument, they'd do that.

What you need to worry about isn't what politicians do, but why they do it - to gain votes. If there are more votes behind a law requiring little girls to be shaved bald than there are against it, Brian Cowen would be walking down O'Connell street wielding a ladyshave right now.

The problem therefore, is one of positive PR - which isn't aided by us going all red-top tabloid in the first few hours over a shooting tragedy in another country.

The only advantage is that most politicans who do shoot over there and the Lords are DBBL,gunowner,and are not likely to be willing to give up their H&H or Purdeys to be smelted down.

And more to the point, the people who pay them feel the same.

Tackleberrywho

juice1304 wrote: »

he means a RFID chip the same chip thats in your passport, or in a car remote, they also use them for pets.

what a stupid idea, lets also chip all of our kitchen knifes and bows while we are at it.

RFID's, who is going to pay for the Technology for antennas all over Ireland, most hunting of deer is done in mountains which are notorious for mobile phone blackspots.
RFID would be the same.

someone should explain To mr Fitz that we have enough passive technology in our lives.
only criminals are tagged in the UK.
He want's law abiding citizens to be tagged here?

tagging of animals indicates ownership, we are not owned as humans. Slavery is not in Ireland!

tag all the people with convictions and watch crime fall!
Not people who HAVE TO HAVE A CLEAN record to get a firearm in the first place!

Sparks

I really doubt that the technical details of RFID tags was in Fitzgerald's mind when writing that letter, or at any time. He could have said "reverse the polarity" instead of "chip" and the content of his letter would have been equally valid technically.

Tackleberrywho

Sparks wrote: »

I really doubt that the technical details of RFID tags was in Fitzgerald's mind when writing that letter, or at any time. He could have said "reverse the polarity" instead of "chip" and the content of his letter would have been equally valid technically.

I hear the same old spcheel every day from know alls.

"My cousin has a gun, so i am an expert"

i'd be more concerned with the amount of crims on the streets than old farmers with and old baikal.

If we reversed yer mans polarity would we reverse his views?
Who appointed him speaker for Joe public?

Don't tell me he used to drive a taxi in ranelagh

I think I know the scobie

Sparks

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

Who appointed him speaker for Joe public?

No-one, he's just yet another caller to Joe Duffy.

Tackleberrywho

Sparks wrote: »

No-one, he's just yet another caller to Joe Duffy.

Deffo knob nation

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

..........We weren't backfooted after Dunblane, the British shooters were,..........

Considering the Gardai used it in pistol cases as a reason to refuse pistol licences that's a bold statement :eek:

Sparks

And that happened in 1997, did it?

bunny shooter

Is that your best comeback :P

We both know it was reported here that Dunblane was cited in recent DC cases regarding the refusals of pistol licences

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=64927546&postcount=17

Surely you won't call Rowa a liar