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Immigration both nationally and internationally

Darith

I wondering if someone explain the following points in relation to migration, economics and society. I have had the fortune to travel and work in some amazing countries and hence meet some amazing people. I have also enjoyed been to these other countries and wish them the best in the future. I personally think migration is a positive attribute but at the same time I do not want it abused by other interests to the detriment of society or migrants themselves. Whenever the subject of migration or emigration came in some of the conversations, the views I heard were quiet confusing. There seems to be some serious brain washing going on with relation to this whose ultimate purpose I have yet to fathom out but I must admit I not done my research or am no expert in this matter or its underlying causes or symptoms.
1) It seems any person whom wants a civilized and rational debate on this subject is considered a racist. Well with history one would one understand such a view but going from one extreme to another is certainly not the answer.
2) Certain sections of societies in some countries want excessive immigration in order to provide cheap labor for certain business interests. Now this observation must be taken in the context that this is what it seems on the surface but if someone could explain that this is incorrect or to a piece of research which clarifies this point I would be grateful.
3) Some conspiracy theorists point out that migration is a tool to essentially destabilize whole communities. This leads to confrontation within communities instead against those whom are corrupt and milking the system. This in turn makes these communities easier to control; the gradual taking away of power from communities to seemly ever larger centralized entities whether these be federal institutions, certain international financial organizations etc. Whether this is true is unfortunately not black or white and very debatable.
4) Then there is the argument that migration can only fill jobs that the indigenous population are unable to fill or unwilling to do. This seems to be very true that certain professionals or trades will always need a quota of migrants in some economies. As regards other jobs such as catering or security for example; I do not know. Do we start some sort of national service to fill these jobs or simply let market forces dictate supply and demand to these positions? But then you have the knock on effect to tourism and other areas. Again I am naïve to the basic economic principles at work here.
　

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drdoon

Denerick wrote: »

Theres a difference between saying 'from my experience of living in the UK, racial tensions created a situation wherein some black people got involved in organised violent crime' and 'only black people commit violent crime'.

I think the statistics of white working class crime speaks for itself (You have the Dublin scangers and Limerick murderers - all white as far as I'm aware) I doubt you may have damaged your credibility with that howler I've bolded above.

The major difference of course is that those scangers are killing eachother, not random members of the public who happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. And fortunately we can point the finger at those so called scangers are say, yeah they are scangers, we all know it, we all can all say it. But we cannot point the finger at blacks it seems for they are above reproach and any who dare say anything is obviously a racist "of course he's a racist, that's so obvious". Soon Ireland will become the same as the UK where everyone is so pc and anyone who has an opinion that in anyway signals that they have a problem with people flooding into their country, claiming benefits and turning areas that were once know as bad areas into what are referred to now as ghettos. 5,000 people extra per week coming into the UK. Why do you think people travel all the way across Europe, passing through several safe haven countries to try their damdest to illegally get into UK, not cause of the weather I can tell you. It's the welfare state, the freebies. Ireland is next!
There should be a simple rule for anyone who is not an EU national. You come here on working visa, when that is up you leave. That's what I had to do in days gone by when working abroad. What makes these people so bloody special? It's known as open door policy, something the UK suffers from after it's imperial past. Something which we do not have (Imperial past that is) so in a way they deserve it. However we do not deserve to be overrun with people who will have no regard, for our culture, our costumes our way of life. All this liberal nonsense, oh lets all be happy and hold hands doesn't play out in the real world my friend. Not everyone wears glasses with a certain tint like yourself. I hope you relish in watching the country go to the dogs over the coming years, just like our neighbours across the water. Then and only then will your dream of candy floss clouds and people running down hills hand in hand (just like the famous Coca cola advert) be realized! Only thing is they'll be being chased by some young black guy looking to stab or shoot them for a whatever they have in their pockets.

Denerick

You seem to be hung up on the whole 'young black male' issue. More than anyone I've ever encountered. I can't say I've ever lived in London but I have cousins who live in a working class area, and when I was younger I went over there a few times, a lot of their mates were black fella's, they played football together, took the piss out of each other, just like any white person would. You paint the picture of young black men haunting the streets of England, much like vicious werewolves in search of prey. Plenty of scangers assualt and even kill ordinary people, so that simply doesn't wash.

I'm not trying to play the big Liberal PC card here. But I think my initial suspicion of what you were going to say was well justified. Sheer racism rooted in fantasy.

Madd Finn

drdoon wrote: »

Where to start on how I developed my racism...
So many disgusting instances that stick in my head that have moulded my bad attitude.

God what a diatribe!!

I could relate similar instances to many of the "disgusting" things you listed, or at least it might have been a list if you could have learned how to use a carriage return, all of them perpetrated in Ireland by Irish people on their fellow countrymen.

A teenage son of a friend of ours suffered an unprovoked attack on the DART in broad daylight a few weeks ago. Gang of skangers jumped him, beat the crap out of him leaving him concussed. Other passengers rushed to help him, pulled the comm cord and got him to hospital but his perpetrators got away. Or at least, so far they did. They are "known to police". And all 100% guaranteed Irish.

Gruesome murders and rapes? Yup. We can do that too.

Welfare sponging? Didn't we invent that?

So what does your stream of semi consciousness amount to? A load of unpunctuated revenge fantasies trying to soothe your general unhappiness at your lot in life with the creation of a handy scapegoat.

Get this: you don't HAVE to LIKE anybody. There is no requirement on you to LIKE blacks, Filipinos, Romanies, pavees or Corkmen. I personally don't like hod carriers. I worked on the sites in London for a time and I found the brickies' labourers to be generally ignorant, loutish, stupid, full of themselves, smelly, unwashed and unable to use carriage returns. And a lot of them were from Cork.

Just my experience and my preferences. Which are fine in themselves.

Where it becomes a problem is when you try to parlay these preferences into a critique of what is wrong with the world and how we can solve our problems. "Some immigrants are ciminals (fact) and I don't like them anyway (also a fact, clearly) so therefore the answer to all our ills is to turn away from our borders anybody with a black or brown face or heavily accented English. Except Corkmen."

One thing you just have to accept is that migration is as old and as natural as the human race. I've done it. You've done it. Complaining about it is like whinging about the weather. You have to come to terms with the things you don't like and seek an accomodation with them.

If a black man mugs you or attacks your daughter then he should go to jail. Because he's a mugger, not because he's black. When you try to equate immigrants or minorities with a pattern of crime you only make things worse. You excuse the cirminals in your "own" community because you are too busy looking for the bad guys in another community, and that very unfairness causes the "other" community to sympathise with their own bad guys because they know they are being treated unfairly to begin with.

Keep your preferences by all means. But for God's sake, man. Get some principles.

scallioneater

Madd Finn wrote: »

God what a diatribe!!

I could relate similar instances to many of the "disgusting" things you listed, or at least it might have been a list if you could have learned how to use a carriage return, all of them perpetrated in Ireland by Irish people on their fellow countrymen.

A teenage son of a friend of ours suffered an unprovoked attack on the DART in broad daylight a few weeks ago. Gang of skangers jumped him, beat the crap out of him leaving him concussed. Other passengers rushed to help him, pulled the comm cord and got him to hospital but his perpetrators got away. Or at least, so far they did. They are "known to police". And all 100% guaranteed Irish.

Gruesome murders and rapes? Yup. We can do that too.

Welfare sponging? Didn't we invent that?

So what does your stream of semi consciousness amount to? A load of unpunctuated revenge fantasies trying to soothe your general unhappiness at your lot in life with the creation of a handy scapegoat.

Get this: you don't HAVE to LIKE anybody. There is no requirement on you to LIKE blacks, Filipinos, Romanies, pavees or Corkmen. I personally don't like hod carriers. I worked on the sites in London for a time and I found the brickies' labourers to be generally ignorant, loutish, stupid, full of themselves, smelly, unwashed and unable to use carriage returns. And a lot of them were from Cork.

Just my experience and my preferences. Which are fine in themselves.

Where it becomes a problem is when you try to parlay these preferences into a critique of what is wrong with the world and how we can solve our problems. "Some immigrants are ciminals (fact) and I don't like them anyway (also a fact, clearly) so therefore the answer to all our ills is to turn away from our borders anybody with a black or brown face or heavily accented English. Except Corkmen."

One thing you just have to accept is that migration is as old and as natural as the human race. I've done it. You've done it. Complaining about it is like whinging about the weather. You have to come to terms with the things you don't like and seek an accomodation with them.

If a black man mugs you or attacks your daughter then he should go to jail. Because he's a mugger, not because he's black. When you try to equate immigrants or minorities with a pattern of crime you only make things worse. You excuse the cirminals in your "own" community because you are too busy looking for the bad guys in another community, and that very unfairness causes the "other" community to sympathise with their own bad guys because they know they are being treated unfairly to begin with.

Keep your preferences by all means. But for God's sake, man. Get some principles.

So, how about we try to steer this into a less personal and more abstract arena? The issue raised seems to me that some immigrants are breaking the law and getting away with it. I'm an Irish immigrant living in the U.S. and the system here is that if you are convicted of two minor crimes or one major crime, then you are deported. Would having a system like this in Ireland help to calm xenophobic feelings?

Nodin

drdoon wrote: »

Denerick!
Oh well then, if I must. I suppose(......) then it will be too late anyways. PEACE

Paragraphs don't kill.

I read your long, boring and nauseatingly cliched anecdote nonetheless. I was unimpressed.

drdoon wrote: »

You are obviously either black yourself or just a very simple person who hasn't lived outside of his little village.

A devastating refutation of criticism there.

Madd Finn

scallioneater wrote: »

I'm an Irish immigrant living in the U.S. and the system here is that if you are convicted of two minor crimes or one major crime, then you are deported. Would having a system like this in Ireland help to calm xenophobic feelings?

I think introducing xenophobic feelings into the issue of dealing with crime distracts from sensible discussion on both immigration and crime, which are actually two separate subjects although the more rabid among us can't seem to see that.

If you have become an American citizen, regardless of where you were born and/or raised, and you transgress America's laws on whatever (drink driving, tax evasion, spousal abuse) then you should be treated just like any other American.

If you are a visitor or a temporary resident, then there might be a case for the host country saying "this is not the sort of person we want here". But the flawed logic that "I seen a lot of **** driving big cars and I wonder how they got them. Don't let them in here or they'll burgle your house and rape your daughter" is just hokum.

Like I said. Mankind is a migratory species. It's perfectly natural for many of us to move around. Live with it.

scallioneater

Madd Finn wrote: »

I think introducing xenophobic feelings into the issue of dealing with crime distracts from sensible discussion on both immigration and crime, which are actually two separate subjects although the more rabid among us can't seem to see that.

If you have become an American citizen, regardless of where you were born and/or raised, and you transgress America's laws on whatever (drink driving, tax evasion, spousal abuse) then you should be treated just like any other American.

If you are a visitor or a temporary resident, then there might be a case for the host country saying "this is not the sort of person we want here". But the flawed logic that "I seen a lot of **** driving big cars and I wonder how they got them. Don't let them in here or they'll burgle your house and rape your daughter" is just hokum.

Like I said. Mankind is a migratory species. It's perfectly natural for many of us to move around. Live with it.

Ok, so you think there should be no linkage between crime and immigration. As you mention that "Mankind is a migratory species", do you then believe that we should have an open borders policy for every nation? If so, do you see any problems with this? If not, what policies would you like to see implemented to regulate immigration in Ireland?

sirromo

Madd Finn wrote:

Like I said. Mankind is a migratory species. It's perfectly natural for many of us to move around. Live with it.

You would also have to admit that humans are a tribal and xenophobic species who seem to prefer the company of their own kind. Speaking for myself, I would rather live in a country that was populated by people who are predominantly of the same ethnic and racial background as myself.

drdoon

It seems to me that no matter what facts are put in front of you it is taken as an attack on black people, young black males to be more specific. I didn't single out young black males, they did that themselves. If I had seen with my own eyes or read about a disproportionate amount of any race doing these kind of things then we would be discussing them. But it's this whole notion that it's an attack on black people specifically. So when I am venting my anger based on real experiences, real statistics which plainly show that young black males are involved in far more serious crime than any other race...ITS RACIST? I mean Jesus Christ almighty, but what are you people on?
This whole attitude of sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting I can hear you,,nah nah nah doesn't cut it. Please take a minute to read through a small selection short paragraphs. There are many more online for you to view

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/the-truth-about-black-on-black-crime-444774.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2007/apr/12/ukcrime.race
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/gang-rape-is-it-a-race-issue-1711381.html

This is the kind of attitude I saw replicated time and time again. You can say what you like about how other races carry on with the same stuff, I don't doubt it. Fact is Blacks do it more than any other ethnic group. Just look at the crime statistics for the UK. This whole no matter what you say I'm sticking to my guns attitude is nonsense.
Here's a taste of Dublin in the not too distant future...White girl walking by doesn't want anything to do with some black youths..
http://www.fdesouche.com/117533-tas-pas-un-06. They believe they are untouchable, say anything your a racist!

As a side note I was back in London two weeks ago. Met up with a buddy from University ( Roehampton University in case you want to know). All was well with him. Discussed Uni as he went back after a year of office work. He said to me the place had gone down hill big time. At least two fist fights in class during a lectures. Guys hanging out in the halls and if eye contact is made with some of them it was "what you lookin at?" People laughing at other people while they are giving their presentations. Mimicking a gun with their hand, that they would get shot for asking people to leave the lecture!!! Now this isn't the ghetto in LA or NY or Chicago. This is a reputed, highly respected, third level place of learning and this kind of thing is happening there. And yes you guessed it, they were young black youths. I'm actually getting sick of talking about it now. Because I will get a reply saying ...blady blah this is going on everywhere...this is progress..your being racist. All I can say is you haven't got a clue. If it is racist then so be it. I whole heartedly accept that title if it will make you happy. I hate nothing more than when people simply brush off every argument and carry on without anything to back up that argument but words.
I have things to do besides sitting here replying to people who know nothing about this subject, have not experienced it, have no interest in finding out anything and yet are so assured in their beliefs that any amount of blatant thuggery and disgusting depraved behaviour is just par for the course. I have to go now, carry on with my racists lifestyle walking my dogs, saying hello to people on the street and babysitting my niece and nephew. Have to make hay while the sun shines. Bye

scallioneater

Hi Dr Doom,

I believe you are pointing out that you believe there is a link between immigrants and crime. If so, do you think deportation of criminal immigrants would solve the problems you identify? If not, what policy changes would you implement to solve to the problems you have outlined?

Nodin

drdoon wrote: »

It seems to me (.....)shines. Bye

Amazing. I'd no idea that so much violence was caused young black males. Its a good thing theres so few of them here. That way no one is going to get raped, shot, or involved in drug wars. I'll go back to my Irelands Own now.

Pittens

Its a good thing theres so few of them here. That way no one is going to get raped, shot, or involved in drug wars.

A devastating refutation of his argument there.

Pittens

Gang of skangers jumped him, beat the crap out of him leaving him concussed. Other passengers rushed to help him, pulled the comm cord and got him to hospital but his perpetrators got away. Or at least, so far they did. They are "known to police". And all 100% guaranteed Irish.

Gruesome murders and rapes? Yup. We can do that too.

Welfare sponging? Didn't we invent that?

No? I presume you have statistics to prove that we did? Or is that a racist comment.

On the side note about "skangers" - we need to get as PC about skangerism as we do about racism. Are there no middle class criminals.

Classists.

Nodin

Pittens wrote: »

A devastating refutation of his argument there.

...the use of sarcasm to highlight our native criminals? Why yes....yes it was.

drdoon

scallioneater wrote: »

Hi Dr Doom,

I believe you are pointing out that you believe there is a link between immigrants and crime. If so, do you think deportation of criminal immigrants would solve the problems you identify? If not, what policy changes would you implement to solve to the problems you have outlined?

Look I know that immigration is inevitable whether it's black, asian, Eastern European or whomever. We did it for so long, now other people are doing it. But whats hopefully not inevitable is the whole you can't say that attitude which has engulfed most parts of Europe and the western world in general. It's now become unfashionable to open your mouth when you see ignorance, arrogance and a very threat to our way of life being perpretrated. No matter what colour, what race or religion. If those people are doing wrong then it is your democratic right to be able to stand up and say. We're not putting up with this in our country, our society. You are here at our descretion, so don't feel you can run amuck and there is nothing we can say or do about it before its too late.
When it comes to dealing with such problems. Why are we not as strict as Canada, Australia, New Zealand. If you are bringing something to the country we require, then by all means come in, be productive. Adhere to our customs, don't take the piss and live within the law. Why can't we do that? Well thats all down to the European union. Thanks to that sham, we now have no control over who comes or goes. We can have hardened criminals coming in and settling down and we have no clue. Whatever happened to working visas? Thats what we did when we went to Europe, USA or Oz? Now all of a sudden, it's no we don't do it that way anymore. Now everyone has the freedom to go wherever they like regardless of the damage to the economy or society of that country. UK has 1.6 million eastern Europeans added to its population since the open door policy was introduced. Thats not counting the thousands of illegal immigrants and asylum (real or bogus) 5000 extra per week. Don't ask me what the numbers are for Ireland. But you can be assured that's whatever happens in UK, eventually happens here. Is it so wrong to say, look lets get control of our borders. Give people who want to work and live here visas to do so. If they no longer have work and the visa expires. Then you go back to your country of origin. I mean, I had to do that and so did millions more. But now it's. No more work, settle down and take from the state.
Now back to the whole racism thing... Can someone tell me how so many thousands of Africans came to live in Ireland? In practical terms, are they not, or were they not on working visas. As far as I am aware if you are from outside the EU, you cannot simply come to any country and just settle down. Forget my so called racist leanings? I really want to know how ANYONE from outside the EU have gotten the go ahead to stay here indefinitely? Please anyone? Do we still not have work visas for people outside the EU, no matter where they are from, ANYONE?
1: Anyone who is not in the country legally criminal or not should be deported immediately. No matter where they are from! Why should we be made to carry the can.
2: Bring back in working visas for anyone, including EU nationals who want to work here. Once a person has been here for a certain number of years, then they can apply to live here.
3: Don't be afraid to question the horrendous way our country is being run into the ground. When you see people behaving in ways that go against the values with which you have been raised, say no way, not in my country. If this is progress I want nothing to do with it.

scallioneater

I really want to know how ANYONE from outside the EU have gotten the go ahead to stay here indefinitely? Please anyone? Do we still not have work visas for people outside the EU, no matter where they are from, ANYONE?
1: Anyone who is not in the country legally criminal or not should be deported immediately. No matter where they are from! Why should we be made to carry the can.
2: Bring back in working visas for anyone, including EU nationals who want to work here. Once a person has been here for a certain number of years, then they can apply to live here.
3: Don't be afraid to question the horrendous way our country is being run into the ground. When you see people behaving in ways that go against the values with which you have been raised, say no way, not in my country. If this is progress I want nothing to do with it.[/QUOTE]

I don't know for sure, but I think the majority of African immigrants are on refugee status. Do you think we should stop allowing refugee applications?

As to your 3 points

1. You do want criminal deportation.

2. If we require visas for foreigners and Britain is so overrun with foreigners, then should we impose visa restrictions between ourselves and Britain? Wouldn't this be counter productive? Should we impose visa restrictions between ourselves and Northern Ireland?

3. Our democratic society requires that people point out problems, but it also requires that we go beyond complaint and come up with solutions to our problems. I like that you are now proposing some solutions that you think would work. I recognise that you see this immigration as a problem and you feel that immigration threatens local cultural practices. But, don't you think the majority of people who are running Ireland into the ground were born here?

drdoon

scallioneater wrote: »

I really want to know how ANYONE from outside the EU have gotten the go ahead to stay here indefinitely? Please anyone? Do we still not have work visas for people outside the EU, no matter where they are from, ANYONE?
1: Anyone who is not in the country legally criminal or not should be deported immediately. No matter where they are from! Why should we be made to carry the can.
2: Bring back in working visas for anyone, including EU nationals who want to work here. Once a person has been here for a certain number of years, then they can apply to live here.
3: Don't be afraid to question the horrendous way our country is being run into the ground. When you see people behaving in ways that go against the values with which you have been raised, say no way, not in my country. If this is progress I want nothing to do with it.

I don't know for sure, but I think the majority of African immigrants are on refugee status. Do you think we should stop allowing refugee applications?

As to your 3 points

1. You do want criminal deportation.

2. If we require visas for foreigners and Britain is so overrun with foreigners, then should we impose visa restrictions between ourselves and Britain? Wouldn't this be counter productive? Should we impose visa restrictions between ourselves and Northern Ireland?

3. Our democratic society requires that people point out problems, but it also requires that we go beyond complaint and come up with solutions to our problems. I like that you are now proposing some solutions that you think would work. I recognise that you see this immigration as a problem and you feel that immigration threatens local cultural practices. But, don't you think the majority of people who are running Ireland into the ground were born here?[/QUOTE]

I'm really not familiar with refugee status, is it the same as asylum seeker? I have no idea. The one thing I will say is why now, why thousands upon thousands. There have always been refugees, there have always been wars. Is it that there are now more wars now than ever before, hence the reason for this mass influx? You can go to into any estate in any town and find more black people than white. I personally live in Clare and there are a couple of estates which are now almost totally black. In many cases the rest are eastern european with the odd Irish person. I know now there ar parts of Dublin which are becoming known as black areas. Look I don't have many issues with reasonable immigration as long as people work hard, pay their way and respect our culture and values. Hopeully many of these new people will bring good aspects of their culture here, including far more tasty food than ours. But what I don't want to see is pure unadulterated masses flooding our towns and cities and I hate being labelled a racist for standing up and saying that. Yes it's true I do focus on blacks alot more than any other race. This is simply because of what I have seen happen in the UK during the eleven years I lived there. London is now a complete kip outside of the city centre. Apart from a few really nice parts, it's generally a dump. People of third world origin have brought third world culture into a western society. So now here is excessive unproportionate murders, gang rapes and general ignorance and arrogance. They are all not like that, but it's a FACT and statistics back this up. That people of african and afro carribean descent are committing far more crime than any other race. Now that there are so many here it's only a matter of time before their culture begins to overwhelm the areas where they live.

1: We should not stop allowing refugees, but I feel our laws have become far too relaxed and the system is broken. Where a few years ago their might be a couple of hundred applicants, now there are thousands. As a side note, why for instance can't people from one country seek refugee status in a neighbouring country. Why do they have to fly halfway across the globe to Ireland?

2: Ireland has an agreement with the UK since the North. That we have freedom of movement between the two countries. As full citizens of Ireland and the UK. Only full citizens should be allowed that kind of freedom. Visas should still apply to anyone who falls outside of these restrictions.

3: I do think that the people running Ireland into the ground were born here, absolutely. We have some of the dumbest, most ignorant people of our own. So do we really need more to worry and spend our time thinking about. There will be he new generation of Irish, who parents came here during the Celtic tiger. Some for valid reasons, some for the wrong reasons. They won't have any loyalties to our flag, our culture or way of life. This can be seen now in cities all across the UK. Cities which are no go areas for indigenous British. Taxis thats do not go to these areas for fear of being attacked because they are white, no other reason. Thats whats down the road for us. It's happened in the UK. It's going to happen here. We need to keep a tight reign on who enters and leaves this nation and get our own house in order. Is that too much to ask?

Denerick

Dr. Doon,

Nobody denies that black people as an ethnic group in the UK commit more crimes than other groups... Because statistics verify it. What I question is the old saying 'lies, damn lies and statistics'. One thing we know for certain about crime is that overwhelmingly, people in the lowest income bracket commit the most crimes. Other factors increase the crimes rates significantly - ie, if you hail from a single parent household, if you hail from a drug addict family, if you hail from a family which has a 'lax' attitude to breaking the law etc. etc.

The problem with the black community in britain is that it is predominantly inner city, it has some of the poorest Britons in society (And poverty breeds further social problems such as drug abuse, etc. etc.) There is very little social mobility as well - so a black child born into a single parent drug abusing family will undoubtedly grow up to father/mother a single parent drug abusing family. And the generational tyranny will go on and on and on.

The fact of the matter is that these traits are clearly present in non black societies too. But the issue is more prevalent within the black community in the UK, as that community is disproportionately poor and hailing from the inner city.

Ethnic crime statistics are useless without a deeper contextual understanding of income brackets and the causes of crime in the first place - social breakdown.

drdoon

thanks for your post denerick.

drdoon

I have been busy yet thinking about following up on your post ...

Denerick wrote: »

Nobody denies that black people as an ethnic group in the UK commit more crimes than other groups... Because statistics verify it.

You are of course correct and I take the other points you have made onboard! But I have to say this. That Black people do not have exclusivity on poverty. There have always been and continue to be indigenous britons living in inner city poor areas. Alongside blacks, Asians, as well as many others. But the fact still remains that black people are committing a disproportionate amount of crime. The fact that they are a different skin colour doesn't automatically mean they have it worse off than their white or Asian neighbours. So why should they commit far more crimes than them. All of the reasons you have given for why this happens are valid. But as I said, inner city life is not a black thing. It's inner city life no matter what colour you are. So I yet have to find a valid reason for the extremes they go to day after day after day. Why does Tridant exist? Why did that guy get the back of his head blown off for telling lads to stop sitting his car. Why did a black gang rob a whole train carriage? There are no excuses.

Denerick

drdoon wrote: »

I have been busy yet thinking about following up on your post ... You are of course correct and I take the other points you have made onboard! But I have to say this. That Black people do not have exclusivity on poverty. There have always been and continue to be indigenous britons living in inner city poor areas. Alongside blacks, Asians, as well as many others. But the fact still remains that black people are committing a disproportionate amount of crime. The fact that they are a different skin colour doesn't automatically mean they have it worse off than their white or Asian neighbours. So why should they commit far more crimes than them. All of the reasons you have given for why this happens are valid. But as I said, inner city life is not a black thing. It's inner city life no matter what colour you are. So I yet have to find a valid reason for the extremes they go to day after day after day. Why does Tridant exist? Why did that guy get the back of his head blown off for telling lads to stop sitting his car. Why did a black gang rob a whole train carriage? There are no excuses.

Nobody excuses crime, instead they try to understand why it happens in the first place. Does anyone have any official statistics for crime breakdowns by income groups across a wide spectrum of European countries? That would make interesting reading.

drdoon

I'm sure it would..you have a good Summer now Denerick & enjoy the World cup. I'm putting this sucker to bed. Thanks for the insightful banter. Later

CCCP

scallioneater wrote: »

I really want to know how ANYONE from outside the EU have gotten the go ahead to stay here indefinitely?

1- Marriage to an Irish person
2-Marriage to an EU national working/living here
3-Asylum
4-skilled in specialist area and working/living here for 5 years , naturalized immigrants (Example : Doctor)

I'm curious, I'm Irish and been looking for work for 6 months, my local shop has about 11 staff, all Brazilian, recently hired a new guy also Brazilian. I check everywhere for job listings and never saw the job advertised, not in shop either.

They are all lovely blokes, some are my friends, but still its strange that this shop has had several people come and go , and Ive only ever seen one non Brazilian, she was Czech. Where are all these jobs being advertised and in what language? I'm Irish and also want one of these jobs that "the Irish don't want to do"!

Are there channels open for non EU immigrants to get jobs here that are unavailable to the Irish? or am I just being paranoid?

shinfujiwara

CCCP wrote: »

1- Marriage to an Irish person
2-Marriage to an EU national working/living here
3-Asylum
4-skilled in specialist area and working/living here for 5 years , naturalized immigrants (Example : Doctor)

I'm curious, I'm Irish and been looking for work for 6 months, my local shop has about 11 staff, all Brazilian, recently hired a new guy also Brazilian. I check everywhere for job listings and never saw the job advertised, not in shop either.

They are all lovely blokes, some are my friends, but still its strange that this shop has had several people come and go , and Ive only ever seen one non Brazilian, she was Czech. Where are all these jobs being advertised and in what language? I'm Irish and also want one of these jobs that "the Irish don't want to do"!

Are there channels open for non EU immigrants to get jobs here that are unavailable to the Irish? or am I just being paranoid?

I can't speak for all immigrants, but as a brazilian i can say that brazilians stick only with brazilians most of the time. There are lots and lots of brazilian websites that help you get a job, showing job ads or brazilian digital communities in which they talk and help themselves about all sorts of matters all the time. The most famous social website for them is Orkut, a Google franchise.

My wife and I are brazilians and we will probably go to Ireland next year because of her italian citizenship. The reasons of "why ireland?" are quite a few. English language, small country, culture, people, costs of living, we really "fancy" your country, it's almost perfectly the opposite of our own... and we hate it. I didn't read all the posts but i could see that you guys want to know how on earth that amount of non-eu immigrants/unqualified could enter your country, I'll try to explain from what I've learned.

Almost all brazilians currently on Ireland are in there as english students, and these students are sometimes no students AT ALL! I've seen people staying more than 5 years saying that they are "still learning". You can depart from here with a course paid and you will get almost all rights as a normal resident, just because you are a english student. You can work 20 hours/week legally and 40 hours/week when you are on vacation, and i've heard of a lot of them working illegally for additional hours when they are in the study period. Frankly? As i said before, i can't talk for all nationalities/immigrants, but if you only could understand portuguese and join one of those brazilian communities on Orkut... boy, you'd be pissed!

Why? I've seen lots, looots of posts in there of things that make me more sad than i already am of being a brazilian. Many people being outlaws and also saying things as that they don't like you (irish), that they don't like your cities, your culture, and even that you wouldn't be able to have a good economy without them. How proud would you be seeing those kind of things coming from your own people?

Now, if you are wondering "why the hell are they in here, then?", that's easy. They want to be in a 1st world country, take advantage of it, enjoy it, maybe come back with a good amount of money, and sometimes they don't even plan to come back as long as your government continue to let them staying in there for 10 years renewing, renewing and renewing again their student visa.

I guess that some of you can see these kind of unpleasant behavior down the street or in a pub, and don't like the fact that your country became full of people like that, but i also don't believe you can run from it. Look at the United States, do you think it was full of scumbags in the 1920's? As your country becomes better/richer/healthier it's normal that it will attract a huge number of immigrants. The roar of your Celtic Tiger can be heard beyond your Emerald Island.

Speaking from myself, i don't pretend to fly to Europe to be no one. If you want to have a "good" education here you need to pay as high as 200 minimum wages during the extension of 4/6 years of non-stop daily study. Sometimes even higher than that. And if you want to have an "excellent" education, you know what you do? You get on a plane to Europe/North America/Asia/Oceania. There are no multiple options, only those two. Let me say that i'm really not willing to invade your country to destroy it, but to escape from my reality, to live in a fairer place. The majority of people in the world right now, by my understanding, are leaving under 2 american dollars per day and having an amazing ridiculous life. Don't you think it's obvious that if people can, they will go to a better place? For better understanding, a person could live better having a minimum wage in Ireland, than being a skilled bachelor in Brazil. And Brazil is no Burkina Faso, if you get my point.

Of course your government can adopt a more severe posture against immigrants as UK is starting to do, for example. I think it would help but of course wouldn't stop it. I've been searching informations about Ireland about many different matters since we decided to live there, and since the beginning i found very strange your immigration policy. I think if Ireland continues to welcome every kind of immigrant, by 2030 at least Dublin will be worst than today’s London indeed.

About the difficulty to find jobs recently in Ireland for an irish citizen, i really wanted to know from you guys, if it's THAT hard as i often hear! Because even here on boards.ie you can find people angrily complaining that immigrants are stealing your jobs. Are we, really? If you get out now and keep on searching for some Burger King position, you won't find things like that? I find it hard to believe. I think people one day were skilled architects and in the other day, after losing their jobs because of the recession, just didn't want to get a menial job.

I could be wrong, though. Really curious about that if someone can help me to understand the actual situation.

jamimon

IrishManSaipan wrote: »

Prove it.

Then look at the economic activity of immigrants. The CSO said the non-nationals were 19.4% of the live register and that figure was rising month on month, but is somewhat stagnant during the previous quarter. This is despite figures suggesting that immigrants are 12-15% of the workforce, but then also factor in those that cannot make a claim because of the 2 year habitual residence rule. This suggests to me that circa 20%+ of immigrants in the labour force who could potentially make a claim are doing so compared to an overall 12% unemployment rate. Then add in child allowance, rent supplements, medical cards, fuel allowance, the whole shebang.

Also, the immigrants will eventually need pensions too.

You know that some of the non eu immigranst do not have the luxury to claim any benefits? So most of what we paid in PRSI or PAYE we don't get it back. Plus college is not free. 1000+ something for first timer for irish, 3000+ for non irish, 11000+ for non eu. On top of that we cannot claim scholarship, or any other benefits. I do agree we use the public services that are financed by the government, but seriously, have you been to the immigration? We definately do not avail of pension that I can guarantee.

I'm curious, I'm Irish and been looking for work for 6 months, my local shop has about 11 staff, all Brazilian, recently hired a new guy also Brazilian. I check everywhere for job listings and never saw the job advertised, not in shop either. They are all lovely blokes, some are my friends, but still its strange that this shop has had several people come and go , and Ive only ever seen one non Brazilian, she was Czech. Where are all these jobs being advertised and in what language? I'm Irish and also want one of these jobs that "the Irish don't want to do"! Are there channels open for non EU immigrants to get jobs here that are unavailable to the Irish? or am I just being paranoid?

Do you really know how hard we try? But most of the time, we stick together. Natural instinct. If you were to work in Japan, you wouldn't be surprise to find a shop with many irish people working would you? If there are 2 shops, one with many irish people and one without, which one would you think you will have the higher chances? Seriously put yourself in our shoes. When you go oversea next time in non english speaking and non eu country, atleast 12 hours flight away from your home, bring just enough for 1 month, print out several CVs and try to look for a job. Work under their currency and live their life. Tell me when you successfully survive one year.

Now, if you are wondering "why the hell are they in here, then?", that's easy. They want to be in a 1st world country, take advantage of it, enjoy it, maybe come back with a good amount of money, and sometimes they don't even plan to come back as long as your government continue to let them staying in there for 10 years renewing, renewing and renewing again their student visa.

I wouldn't say 1st, but better economy. Its natural. Did the irish not do that around 20 years ago when they all went to america? I heard some are getting deported from america a year ago maybe, I don't follow news.

If you have problems please to let your voice be heard. Posting on websites, chit chating and such will only generate hatred which leads to crime. I do get a lot of them not just in ireland. I do ignore them. You don't know when your children will work in China or India or Brazil in the future. It would be fun to watch then.

shinfujiwara

jamimon wrote: »

I wouldn't say 1st, but better economy. Its natural. Did the irish not do that around 20 years ago when they all went to america? I heard some are getting deported from america a year ago maybe, I don't follow news.

If you have problems please to let your voice be heard. Posting on websites, chit chating and such will only generate hatred which leads to crime. I do get a lot of them not just in ireland. I do ignore them. You don't know when your children will work in China or India or Brazil in the future. It would be fun to watch then.

In what part of my post did I said it wasn't natural? I totally agree with you on that. Of course it would be the same if Brazil was the Tiger, and Ireland a place to **** underage 7 years old little girls, pimped by their own mothers, for a real bargain.

And as I said, I don't speak for every immigrant, but most brazilians go there BECAUSE it is a 1st world country. It's more a matter of "status" than economic advantage. You need to remember that these people that depart from here have enough money to do so. They don't always live an amazing life, but it's good enough. A single airline ticket to Ireland would cost you something like 4 minimum wages. Most 20 years old employees earn much less than the minimum wage. Which means that even if someone is paying everything that they need to live, they still need 8/10 months of work only to buy this 1 single ticket. Excluding all the rest of costs they would have to make this "adventure" happen.

They just want to tell others that they were living in such a place, and of course, come back with as much money as they can. If you understand portuguese you can see that this behavior corresponds to more than 90% of the brazilians currently in Ireland. Unfortunately I'm not lying nor being biased, it is the truth.

In any case... people won't stop immigration to Ireland, of course not. If someone is letting them, why would them? It's the same for me, i'm running away from here like irishmen did to America in the past. And the irish are welcoming us like America did. Who would stop me if not the irish government?

But again, something that you guys should pay attention is the fact the many of the immigrants in Ireland right now, are in there because of Student VISA's. Anyone who wants to live for a indeterminate period of time in Ireland can do this "trick". You guys asked "how" they're doing it, and I just said the way that I know.

jamimon

I do agree about the "status", excluding the lifestyle, no offence but maybe its just me. And I'm also curiousl how they couldn't get a job. In mid level engineering job I've been in here, not a single soul from my continent.

Your hardship to get in Ireland and to live here is pretty much your story to tell. Unless they experience it, they'll never know. Why bother?

I think there's a stop in the student visa scheme. I don't read the news that much but it also does not affect me that much.

There will be discrimination nonetheless. But you also must put yourself in their (Irish) shoes as well. Its the status they want to protect, its their culture they want to preserve.

Nevertheless it is what it is, depends where you are born. Life just suck as it is, we can solve everything by drinking beer, the only thing I've learnt here. What a rap!

shinfujiwara

jamimon wrote: »

I do agree about the "status", excluding the lifestyle, no offence but maybe its just me. And I'm also curiousl how they couldn't get a job. In mid level engineering job I've been in here, not a single soul from my continent.

Your hardship to get in Ireland and to live here is pretty much your story to tell. Unless they experience it, they'll never know. Why bother?

I think there's a stop in the student visa scheme. I don't read the news that much but it also does not affect me that much.

There will be discrimination nonetheless. But you also must put yourself in their (Irish) shoes as well. Its the status they want to protect, its their culture they want to preserve.

Nevertheless it is what it is, depends where you are born. Life just suck as it is, we can solve everything by drinking beer, the only thing I've learnt here. What a rap!

People tend to forget important things by drinking or doing any other meaningless activity, indeed. Couldn't agree more.

But tell me, where you come from? When did you go to Ireland? And what's about the student visa? You heard something about changing it?

And yes, i'm still curious as you are about the jobs issue to irish citizens. I hope someone read this topic and clarify for me how it is in the reality. It's one of the things that I really wanted to know.

jamimon

I heard you can only have up to a limited time when you apply for level 7 or english course. You can't renew you visa anymore longer than that. Unless you do the IT or Uni course which costs 12000 upward a year for level 8. Looking at that figure, I don't think anyone would stay. Eitherway I'm not trying to stay here for the minimum wages or doing any tricks. Its not worth my time. Life is too short.

I'm from south east asia. There is no equality in my country, there is no real "home" on earth for me. My story is not important even for me as its not worth looking into the past. It is not your burden to bare.

In Ireland for 5 years. I was doing the thing you mentioned. But like I said, its not worth it. You have a considerable amount of money but then after a while you have nothing left. Why waste years of suffering just for that brief moment? Many may not see this, but who am I to judge.

People do things for selfish reasons, and its totally predictable, atleast for me. The only thing is that you don't want to be the victim. Whatever the figure what ever the percentage, I don't care. Half of my leg is already inside the coffin as I write this post.

ron2010

Denerick wrote: »

Immigration is good for our country and sooner or later Europe will have to face up to the reality that it needs migrants. What bothers me is that the US attracts some of the most skilled migrants in the world, while Europeans attract unskilled workers to do menial jobs. This is insane. We need highly skilled Africans and Asians to work in our economy, the Asians in particular played a very important role in Silicon Valley in America, they helped launch the new economy.

Europe is getting older, with a massive retiree population. Someone will have to pay the taxes to sustain this elderly population. An influx of black and brown people is necessary, whether people are willing to face that or not.

You see that is the whole problem. The People who are in favour of immigration into Ireland are usually foreign people who's ancestors didn't work hard or even die to make our country today.

Personally I dont consider foreign people with Irish Citizenship Irish.

They have their opinion that immigration is good because they abandoned their homelands for work abroad and it makes them feel better about themselves if everyone else does the same.

A lot of Irish People emigrated but ' A Lot Didn't' they stuck it out in their homelands for better or worse.