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CIÉ / Irish Rail - is the game finally up?

Judgement Day

At last the penny drops - even over at Irish Railway News. This post from today says it all. When railway enthusiasts start asking questions like this you know we're in trouble. Perhaps a section of railway line from Heuston to Inchicore could be kept for RPSI and IRRS specials? :rolleyes:

by Drimnagh Road

Would Anybody Really Notice If Ireland's Railways Were Dug Up In The Morning?
A couple of enthusiasts, a few commuters around the Dublin belt perhaps, a few hen parties who would miss the convenience of been able to drink on the way down to Wexford.
But, this is actually a serious question. From a practical point of view, where do railways fit in in this country? Do they serve any purpose at all anymore other than carrying people who don't drive and don't like sitting on coaches.
I read today that one of the final pieces of the M7 motorway jigsaw is now opened, the Abbeyleix bypass and it will cut journey times to Cork by up to 45 minutes at peak times. That means that Dublin-Cork (M7/, Dublin-Limerick (M9), Dublin-Galway (M4/6), Dublin-Belfast (M1), Dublin-Waterford (M9) will all be much quicker to travel by road than it is by train.
I have to say that if one good thing came out of the boom years in spite of the bankers, greediness, high prices, property chaos, corruption and subsequent downfall, it was the road network. Everybody admits that the road network is now superb, and I don't even drive!
All these motorways would have been developed during the boom years. Railways also got hundred of millions to invest around the same time aswell, and it is only now that it should be obvious that a lot of it was squandered. We do not have a better railway than we did ten years ago. Yes we've shiny units, colour light signalling and replacement CWR track over vast amounts of the network.
Yet journey times are tediously slower. It would be the same as a new motorway opening yet it would be quicker to travel on the old road via every little village you could think of. Something is just not right!
I've been surprised yet hardly surprised at the general lack of interest from local people about the Rosslare-Waterford line. While I agree with and expected eventually that this line would close, I thought that locals would have been at least able to rustle up enough support to cause enough racket to at least implement a delay.
I've always been pro-rail but with our poor country in such a dreadful state can we afford to spend any more money on something that contributes no benefit to us. The 16:00 Cork on Saturday had 68 people out of Dublin, I viewed a 2700 arrive in the Junction with 3 people on-board from Waterford, is this viable?
When railways come to a halt on other countries there does be mass chaos, over here it generally awakens people to better and faster modes of transport (i.e. Malahide Viaduct been tragic for Irish Rail passenger numbers).
I don't necessarilly think that Irelands Railways have any strategic part to play in our country's national infrastructure anymore. We have gotten so little out of ours and the EUs moneys from the investment programme that is it now time to give up now and redirect the money to healthcare etc, where everybody would feel the benefits?
With so many great roads around the country now would anybody really be that inconvenienced if the railways were shut in the morning?

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JHMEG

It's clear CIE don't know how to run a railway as a business.

The question is will they be allowed to slowly kill off the rest of the network, or will some brave Minister push privatisation?

I suspect the former.

(I will be honest and say out loud that I don't like subsidies. I don't like paying other people's way. I would prefer no railway to a badly run, blood sucking leech railway, that's run primarily for the staff)

DWCommuter

I was trundling along the luas green line today, thinking of CIEs act of sabotage on the Harcourt street line, just prior to an expansion of the city along its route. It really sums up the mindset of management in this semi state company. I also wondered, what will be left of the rail network by 2050. Very little I imagine.

The point made above re investment is a valid point. Anyone who takes a look, knows that the railway is only marginally better than it was. Apologists may argue that the Government didn't cough up enough, but there is absolutely no doubt that rail management failed to take advantage of the boom times to deliver a competitive customer focused railway. Yes political interference such as the WRC didn't help, but even without that, there is a clear picture of a rail operator devoid of imagination and too engineering focused to create a 21st century network. Now that the **** has hit the fan, we are starting to see the internal wranglings palyed out in public. Court cases, avoiding oireachtas committees, pay offs and accusations of fraud. Im sure if one was to dig even deeper, much more could be brought to light. The recent arrogance displayed by certain IE/CIE individuals does indeed look like a desperate last ditch attempt to plug many holes. They are a shambles and the entire CIE entity needs to be brought to its knees. No more reports on what they should do. Only actions on finding an alternative. Their history is evidence of disgraceful management and neglect of their core function.

Its easy to make excuses for them and find technical explanations or even political explanations. But just research the history of the company, the many reports and the actions of the company over the last 60 odd years. Compare it to other semi states like the ESB or BnM. My criticism of CIE isn't done on a whim or lightly. I don't do it for kicks. Its based on a detailed knowledge of how the company has operated since inception. Anyone can attain the information and once you are prepared to look at it with an open unbiased mind, its easy to see the utter failure of this dinosaur.

icdg

[QUOTE=Judgement Day;66087153

Would Anybody Really Notice If Ireland's Railways Were Dug Up In The Morning?With so many great roads around the country now would anybody really be that inconvenienced if the railways were shut in the morning?
[/QUOTE]

I suspect a huge amount of people would notice if the DART and the Maynooth line were closed in the morning. Dublin Bus and the roads in the areas affected would be likely to be swamped.

I personally can't see mass closure of the railways, while the Greens are in power at least. Yes CIÉ is looking for a closure order for Waterford-Rosslare. Lets face it, this line doesn't exactly go through a densly populated area and has be living on borrowed time for years. But elsewhere they are investing in new rolling stock, something I don't think they'd be doing if they were planning on closing the system down in the morning. The Interconnector will revolutionise Dublin transport (if its' ever built). The Dublin Metro (which isn't CIÉ, but Metro North at least is nearly a railway) will also help. I'm unconvinced of the merits of the WRC but its open now and it least the open section connects two cities.

Business travellers would likely be annoyed/inconvienced if Dublin - Belfast and Dublin - Cork at least were not kept open. You can work on a train, you can't if your driving. Yes beyond those two lines InterCity starts to make less sense but I can't see a mass closure of the network happening anytime soon, it would be political sucide in any case.

Victor

icdg wrote: »

But elsewhere they are investing in new rolling stock, something I don't think they'd be doing if they were planning on closing the system down in the morning.

Spending money on a mass of rolling stock, when you have existing rolling stock that still has 10+ years life left in it, is a waste of money if you don't actually have a customer focused operation. The last week has had lots of delays and a few breakdowns and the rate is probably as bas as when they were using 20-30 year old stock.

If you bought a new car in tomorrow, would it actually get you to work any faster than the one that got you there today? If the road and traffic is the same, that is unlikely.

Cookie_Monster

icdg wrote: »

I suspect a huge amount of people would notice if the DART and the Maynooth line were closed in the morning. Dublin Bus and the roads in the areas affected would be likely to be swamped.

That pretty much. IC could be run down pretty much without issue, leaving on commuter routes. IE DART, Northern, Maynooth and Cobh lines pretty much.

JHMEG

Outside the commuter services I wouldn't say that the rest of the network has a bright future. And should it? If someone can get a bus to Galway for half the price and a shorter journey time then what purpose does the railway serve?

popebenny16

well, the M7/8 isnt open till tomorrow but let me give a concrete example of how it affects me. firstly, i can drive from north tipperary to dublin city centre in usually one hour twenty mins, and this will be further cut by the new motorway section.

secondly, the last train back to my station is still 6.35 pm. this means that i can only really work within say an hours distance at rush hour from heuston. i remember one evening waiting tensely on the 92 over st stephens green as two failed to turn up and the clock running out.

thirdly - its €44 euro for a return ticket and €2 for carparking. if i drive its twenty euro and usually €7 for parking.

at the end of the day Irish Rail have to wake up to the fact that there is genuine compitition out there in many peoples driveways in many of the provincial anc commuter belt towns. If anything the recession has actually worked against the rail company in a way they may never have thought - the roads are a lot freeer in the morning than they otherwise were, making the motorway trip even more attractive.

I am not going to bother listing the many things which IE can do to improve matters their end - even speaking to them in person is akin to interrogating a member of the provisonal IRA, they never have, presently do not and never will actually listen to any cricisim or any point of view apart form their own.

In any sane and rational company they would wonder just why they are compelled to close lines, but not the myopic and dysfunctional entity that lurks in Heuston and Connolly. Has it ever occoured to them that these are testiments to their failure as managment and as an entity? The fact that it does not condemns them.

doncarlos

JHMEG wrote: »

It's clear CIE don't know how to run a railway as a business.

€23 single ticket to Dundalk vs €7 on the bus that takes the same lenght of time plus free wifi. I'll never travel by train again

Run_to_da_hills

Accomodate more space on intercity trains for cycles and goods, re introduce Fastrack and allow cycles free to encourage more tourist traffic to use the train

popebenny16

there is another thing here - is there a railway culture in this country, like there is in the UK and other countries? by this i mean that when people set off for long journeys do they consider the train as the first means of transport? Same for commuting. If they do not - why not?

The classic image is of dirty, old, clapped out, malfunctioning stock. It is of late arrivals, strikes, cancellations. It is of trains that do not run at the time that they are needed to run, and seem to run according to a timetable set out over 100 years ago.

The only dent in that image is the new rolling stock - and as we who have an interest in the railways know - the new Rotem Stock is failing in an alarming fashion for something so new.

As for timetables - forget it. The attitude of this company to timetables and the public was summed up on the opening day of the WRC and on the day of the Charity Tour of the Mark3 on it.

It is also a prime reason why the Rosslare/Waterford branch is going and why Ballybrophy/Limerick will be next. I have posted before about the theory that, seeing the figures year on year and hearing from people like DWCommuter and myself to their faces that the timetable and publicity is the key, they insist on changing nothing.... so is it the strategy to purposefully allow these branch lines to wither and die? To sacrifice them to the Department of Finance in a vain hope that this will allow the saving of the other lines? If so, it is an admission of failure from a bunch of failures. The existance of a railway line is something that any town should be able to use to attract Foreign Direct Investment, and likewise a region. However, not in Ireland. The railway is so irrelivent is is not even mentioned. Motorways are.

The only safe branch line in the country is, of course, the WRC. This is only because the Goverment which brought it in most certanly will not remove it. The money for it has been found, tough titty on those in the south east, they are paying for it. Again, its deckchairs on the titanic stuff.

68 people on a train between the two main cities says it all. If they cant do better then that its not only sad but pathetic.

robd

Intercity trains are affectively dead. The new motorways are faster and allow competition which the trains never will. Ireland is a small country and it's easily possible to travel by car from one end to the other in a matter of hours. Dublin being the biggest city is the hub; from where you can now get to most of the rest of the country (bar Donegal) in under 4 hours by road. Galway is a mere 2 hours away.

Only future I see is in the commuter services, dart, dart underground and metro as they offer a service by beating congestion. For the sake of the consumer the running of these services should be put out to tender much like the luas. Yes Veolia have there much documented issues, but they're still way ahead of Irish Rail. Multiple operators awarded 5 year contracts with genuine service level agreements should do wonders for the commuter.

Cookie_Monster

Agree with you apart from this:

robd wrote: »

Multiple operators awarded 5 year contracts with genuine service level agreements should do wonders for the commuter.

Proven in the UK that you need much longer term contracts before operators will take serious interest and place investment.

JHMEG

popebenny16 wrote: »

It is of strikes,

Thankfully not so much since this individual moved on. Still causing trouble elsewhere tho.

DWCommuter

popebenny16 wrote: »

It is also a prime reason why the Rosslare/Waterford branch is going and why Ballybrophy/Limerick will be next. I have posted before about the theory that, seeing the figures year on year and hearing from people like DWCommuter and myself to their faces that the timetable and publicity is the key, they insist on changing nothing.... so is it the strategy to purposefully allow these branch lines to wither and die? To sacrifice them to the Department of Finance in a vain hope that this will allow the saving of the other lines? If so, it is an admission of failure from a bunch of failures. The existance of a railway line is something that any town should be able to use to attract Foreign Direct Investment, and likewise a region. However, not in Ireland. The railway is so irrelivent is is not even mentioned. Motorways are.

The only safe branch line in the country is, of course, the WRC. This is only because the Goverment which brought it in most certanly will not remove it. The money for it has been found, tough titty on those in the south east, they are paying for it. Again, its deckchairs on the titanic stuff.

68 people on a train between the two main cities says it all. If they cant do better then that its not only sad but pathetic.

When on track 2000 was launched certain branch lines were not included. One of these lines is about to close. The other two will follow. It is a definitive example of how IE never had any interest in them even when there was unprecedented investment available. Somewhere in the bowls of this apparent ineptitude is a scheme to rationalise further the network and all because the company is incapable of managing it effectively. There is absolutely no defense for this company and I find the public displays of arrogance from both John Lynch and Barry Kenny offensive. Hopefully they will be shouted down in the media more regularly as neither of them has ever had anything constructive to say about the fate of the network, in good times or bad. Promises, promises when there was money and now in recession they're like narky little two year olds who didn't get enough sleep.

Hungerford

DWCommuter wrote: »

Somewhere in the bowls of this apparent ineptitude is a scheme to rationalise further the network and all because the company is incapable of managing it effectively.

You forgot to add that they attempted to shut the lines in 2002, while the cash was still poring in, but were beaten back by Seamus Brennan, who subsequently pushed for the break-up for CIE.

As for Lynch and Kenny, I would suspect they are cranky due to the amount of sleepless nights they've been having recently. I am concerned that their symptoms may worsen once the DDDA audit gets into full swing. Remember where the DDDA got a lot of its land from... :pac:

Victor

Hungerford wrote: »

I am concerned that their symptoms may worsen once the DDDA audit gets into full swing. Remember where the DDDA got a lot of its land from... :pac:

I'm not sure if the DDDA have any former CIÉ land.

purplepanda

Long distance & Inter CIty railways in Ireland need to increase journey speeds & train frequencies to compete with the new road system or go the way of the Dodo, millions have been spent on new tracks, signaling & trains yet the timetables are as slow as ever & never seem to be updated & / or improved to reflect passenger needs & attract new customers.:mad: And to further insult the public who paid for all these so called improvements a fleet of rolling stock which had decades of potential use in service lies rusting away!!!!!:eek:

:mad::mad:

As for the Rosslare Waterford line closing, one train a day, each way with no connection to the rest of the network, despite many calling for a Cross Country style service to connect up with the rest of the country, no daily return trains from Waterford to Wexford, little service connections for the ferry arrivals. Is it any wonder when the line was managed like this for decades???

And the Rosslare Connelly line runs at speeds that are the same as in the days of steam trains, with frequent bus transfers due to line closures, how long before this line is cut back with services terminating at Wexford Town or Gorey? After the Waterford - Limerick Nenagh services are terminated beforehand:(

wellbutty

I think trains only have a purpose in and around Dublin. The motorways will revolutionise how we travel and the non-Dublin public transport budget would be better spent on putting on a bus service that maximises this new road network.

It's plain stupid to continue pouring money into railways that have a handful of passengers who will inevitably be late after being bumped for 4 hours on a 100 year old line.

Dum_Dum

If Dublin Airport was served by rail with through services to the major towns and cities and combined rail-air ticketing then I think rail has some kind of future outside Dublin. But some obvious things also need to apply: it has to reliable and comfortable and undercut airport car parking charges. Fat chance!

DWCommuter

Hungerford wrote: »

You forgot to add that they attempted to shut the lines in 2002, while the cash was still poring in, but were beaten back by Seamus Brennan, who subsequently pushed for the break-up for CIE.

As for Lynch and Kenny, I would suspect they are cranky due to the amount of sleepless nights they've been having recently. I am concerned that their symptoms may worsen once the DDDA audit gets into full swing. Remember where the DDDA got a lot of its land from... :pac:

Oh Ive mentioned it too many times before. It was incredible to see their attitude when they were awash with money and growing passenger numbers.

As for the break up of CIE, well the unions cut that idea off and we all know why.

Spencer Dock is another shambles made up by a cosy arrangement between CIE and Treasury Holdings under the guise of the SDDC, but I'm not sure if CIE gave any land to the DDDA.

DWCommuter

Lets not forget that this company also introduced pay parking in their stations. Yet another brilliant own goal.

Terrontress

robd wrote: »

Only future I see is in the commuter services, dart, dart underground and metro as they offer a service by beating congestion.

Don't forget that the railway is congested! Commuter trains crawl behind DARTs at single digit speeds and then wait outside Connolly for a platform to become free.

Hungerford

DWCommuter wrote: »

Spencer Dock is another shambles made up by a cosy arrangement between CIE and Treasury Holdings under the guise of the SDDC, but I'm not sure if CIE gave any land to the DDDA.

CIE and the DDDA are linked in several respects:
1. The DDDA granted all the SDDC's planning permissions.
2. The SDDC came about as a result of pressure from the DDDA, which wanted to government to give the land to it so that it could give it to developers.

The driving force behind the DDDA's acquisition strategy at that time was its chairman Lar Bradshaw, a former director of Anglo, so it is likely that the whole Spencer Dock affair will be examined in detail (if only for political reasons) by the Auditor-General.

Stonewolf

"The jigs up, see" - Sorry been wanting to post that since the thread started.

You can totally do Donegal in less than 4 hours.

The problem with breaking up/replacing CIE is the hows, whys, whens and whats. Due to the nature of government in Ireland you would almost need to do all their work for them and draft a comprehensive document telling them exactly what they needed to do signed by X, Y and Z (experts in their field/expensive consultants) otherwise CIE will limp on. I see a lot of complaints flying around on this board but no solutions so lets have a big transport solution throwdown. Are you tired of CIE? sick of IE? Then stop giving out and tell the world what you think should be done about it.

This thread has heavily concentrated on the problems with IE, but the problem isn't just IE, it's transport as a whole. I think the solution is to create a number of comprehensive transport units with different areas of competency. For instance:
* Dublin Transit with all busses, trams, metro and DART (inner commuter if you will) which is dedicated to moving people around Dublin on all the modes available and being one single company would be able to concentrate its efforts not on competing bus and train or bus and tram routes but on a proper integrated approach. You would also have a similar company for each of the other larger urban areas in the country (Galway, Cork, Limerick etc...). These companies would be train owners and operators with the infrastructure handled by another company.
* Local Transit running local busses in rural areas and larger towns and outer commuter routes (both bus and train) for urban areas. Again train services would be based on the owner operator model with infrastructure owned by someone else. This company would coordinate with city transport and TransNational to operate feeds relevant to those two companies.
* TransNational would be a company that ran express services along routes describing a network of long distance connections between large towns and major urban centres. This would take over Intercity train services and long distance Bus Eireann busses (the split would mean these busses could operate much more as expresses with fewer stops as LT would take over feeder services).
* National Rail Freight who would operate freight trains either on a structured basis or by commission.

The big question then becomes who owns the heavy rail infrastructure. Obviously TN and NRF would own and operate their own trains but would either own the infrastructure too? Should infrastructure be owned by a separate company (as in the UK)? In any case, whoever owns the infrastructure must allow others to operate on it (and not just those companies stated above). Also to what degree would privatisation be performed either by sale or franchise?

BluntGuy

I agree CIE and IE have outlived their usefulness. It's time for them to go.

Not that I'm a fan of the RPA either - just an IE spin-off that specialises in using crayons to draw pretty maps of pointless tramlines.

We need a Dublin Transport Authority, a real one. Not the NTA quango rubbish, not the DTA leaflet distribution rubbish, a real authority that can make real, sensible decisions, give the transport network an overall direction and goal and most importantly, tender out operation of services.

As for Intercity rail, IE had more than enough money to make railway competitive. The motorways didn't exactly come out of no-where, in fact they were four years late giving them plenty of time to sort out the situation.

popebenny16

wellbutty wrote: »

I think trains only have a purpose in and around Dublin. The motorways will revolutionise how we travel and the non-Dublin public transport budget would be better spent on putting on a bus service that maximises this new road network.

It's plain stupid to continue pouring money into railways that have a handful of passengers who will inevitably be late after being bumped for 4 hours on a 100 year old line.

the irony of course being that in every way imaginable, but most nakedly with the new fleet of intercity railcars, IE actually agree with you. they can basically point with pride to their ineptitude and say how we really only need commuter trains and not an intercity service as for some reason it is impossible to run one here.

Hint = they are the reason

shamwari

Well, as someone who used to use the Northern Calcutta Line express (that's unfair to anyone in Calcutta having their quality service compared to our woeful one) the collapse of the Malahide viaduct was a real eye opener for me and many of my neighbours. It proved to me that a properly run bus service can compete with, and often beat the train. The 33X has been a Godsend, and if I don't use the bus, I drive instead. The train is just not worth the aggravation at all.

And as many have said here, the bus and the car, and in some cases air, are destroying the train hands down. When assesed by the usual key performance indicators (comfort, costs, journey times, punctuality, availability) the train is just not competitive. Forget the WRC, lightly used lines or whatever else we have concerns over, but the question that now has to be asked is why is rail now so uncompetitive, especially following billions of Euro's being invested in it? This waste is nothing short of gratuitous.

And I am actually finding myself agreeing with some of the cynics here in that the future of the CEO is not looking particularly bright.

DWCommuter

FINALLY......some are starting to get it.:D

See sig below and follow.;)

Alternatives only come after a big number are assembled. The answers are out there.;) It doesn't have to be CIE/IE anymore. As I said before, I don't criticise CIE/IE lightly. The micky mouse facebook page is leading somewhere, but only if you really believe!

Solair

Their engineering decisions are a bit questionable too. For example : they purchased a new fleet for the Cork-Dublin line without improving speed of service. Tilting trains, standard in most of Europe, would have potentially improved journey times. Instead, we basically have a newer version of the existing trains and absolutely no change to the speed.

The intercity DMUs on other lines are also hampered by a very low top speed and because they're non-tilting.

There was enough money & off-the-shelf systems available to provide much faster service but CIE managed to invest in rolling stock that seems to have been specified in the 1970s

200km/h service between Dublin & Cork and at least 160 km/h service to all other destinations should be possible. However, CIE managed to screw up the upgrades and we've now got a network that will never compete with road on speed and journey times.

We didn't need TGVs or ICEs, just a fleet of flexible tilting DMUs as used all over the UK, Spain, Denmark etc etc They are standard kit!

parsi

Thank the Lord they didn't get swallowed by the tilt fad.

It's to be expected that the Italians would have difficulties but when you see the DB just not succeeding in making tilt work in a totally reliable fashion then you become thankful for the small mercy that we don't have to listen to "this train is delayed because it can't get back upright after that last bend".