Longford Cathedral on fire

ballsymchugh wrote: »

every class had a trocaire box, we often went out selling lines around the town. have kids really changed that much?!!

i am afraid they have! Kids are becomin spoilt, extremely spoilt! Mobile phones at 10 or younger, to me thats crazy:eek: What happened to the simple games we played to entertain ourselves.? Mammys and daddys are at work kids in creche or after school care = mammys and daddys trying to buy love. Sorry but thats how i see it

sorry guys, been a bit busy!!:D
Firstly, everyone is entitled to there opinion! It may well be that this whole story has been blown way out of proportion, as stated in some of last replies unless a teacher who was there when the priest or bishop was talking about this donation idea we can only make our own presumptions. It is possible that one kid did come up with this idea and thats how it started but it is also possible that it was put out there for the kids to do. Either way i just think its wrong. Kids need to be guided and thought about life, they are very vunerable, naive, easy lead, etc. Kids usually dont stop to think about money or charity, they usually think of sweets, football, match attack cards or stuff like that!:D The problem with the 'donations' is the fact that it was talked about during confirmation, it wasnt the right place. I dont want to get into a heated argument with anyone, as i said we are all entitled to our opinion no matter how right or wrong.

Arkana wrote: »

Well... AGAIN: You are talking of 'facts' but you are not providing those - from where do you 'know' it? Through your quite dodgy words I have to assume you have your knowledge from hearsay and as such this is worthless because it cannot be considered as a fact. Hearsay, rumors and information without identified sources don't help in ANY kind of discussion. I was not only mentioning different (!) media but also several private reports (from people I know). Your story is so different (and nobody so far could support this from identified sources) - and also the child's psychology usually is not such to think within a charity thing! - that this story is very improbable.
That's why I cannot believe this.

I dont care to be honest if you believe what i say, I know it to be true and thats the end of this discussion.:)

ballsymchugh

Arkana wrote: »

You are still/again not answering precisely to my questions/utterings. I don't know whether this is by purpose or ignorance - and I don't care any longer.
Instead of providing the asked for proof/evidence, you are distracting from the details in popping in rhetoric remarks. This does not help in any kind and does not make your sayings more credible - I am sorry for that.
I have said and read enough.
Dolly, it was a pleasure to discuss with you - but now I am getting bored and withdraw from this (now twisted) discussion. Everything that was important has been said - what could come now would only cause hot blood. I want to avoid this.

Ad finitum.

ask a precise question and i will answer. i merely debated whether children have the ability to suggest in a classroom. i say they do, and you didn't agree. what else are you unhappy with?

ballsymchugh wrote: »

= hearsay??

i'm not as experienced on life as you may be, but you'd be very surprised how much teaching has changed in the past 15 years, never mind 50. it could well have been a teacher that suggested it to a class to talk about and it rolled from there, but unless someone from certain schools starts posting here then how are we to know, apart from rumour and hearsay as you stated above.

You are still/again not answering precisely to my questions/utterings. I don't know whether this is by purpose or ignorance - and I don't care any longer.
Instead of providing the asked for proof/evidence, you are distracting from the details in popping in rhetoric remarks. This does not help in any kind and does not make your sayings more credible - I am sorry for that.
I have said and read enough.
Dolly, it was a pleasure to discuss with you - but now I am getting bored and withdraw from this (now twisted) discussion. Everything that was important has been said - what could come now would only cause hot blood. I want to avoid this.

Ad finitum.

ballsymchugh

Arkana wrote: »

Well... AGAIN: You are talking of 'facts' but you are not providing those - from where do you 'know' it? Through your quite dodgy words I have to assume you have your knowledge from hearsay and as such this is worthless because it cannot be considered as a fact. Hearsay, rumors and information without identified sources don't help in ANY kind of discussion. I was not only mentioning different (!) media but also several private reports (from people I know). Your story is so different (and nobody so far could support this from identified sources) - and also the child's psychology usually is not such to think within a charity thing! - that this story is very improbable.
That's why I cannot believe this.

= hearsay??

Arkana wrote: »

Sorry to contradict this as well - but with my more than 50 years life experience I have NEVER seen a teacher who is easily accepting the suggestion of a kid (whether this is good or bad, doesn't matter!). Even if teachers often are educated pedagogues, most of them still have the 'arrogant' (more or less) attitude of 'adult over kids' mentality. IF - and I say, IF!! - they accept a kid suggestion they never do it as easily as you showed. The mechanism you provided DOES work - but usually if an ADULT does suggest it in the class - hence, the teacher. If it would the other way round it would be like a revolution - and highly improbable. Again, it does not match the children's psychology.

i'm not as experienced on life as you may be, but you'd be very surprised how much teaching has changed in the past 15 years, never mind 50. it could well have been a teacher that suggested it to a class to talk about and it rolled from there, but unless someone from certain schools starts posting here then how are we to know, apart from rumour and hearsay as you stated above.

echoindi wrote: »

sorry dollydimples i was'nt having a go at you, i was replying to our other friend there, sorry about the mix up, i think the reason it was mentioned in church was simply to tell the people of the childrens good will.

Hi there,
you very polite person!
Here is the so-called 'other friend there' speaking.
Your kind of wording seems to me that you are running out of arguments in this discussion and trying to make people non-credible with this little rhetoric trick - but that's a very old one (going back to Pythagoras' times) and the intention is quite clear. Your reaction is quite understandable, because human, but nonetheless not very helpful.
I give you my humble advice (you might accept it or not) to stick to first grade, identifiable information and forget about hearsay, to distinguish between opinion and fact (and address these as such) and to stick to the truth - even if it is sometimes painful. In the end it is to your advantage - people will keep you in higher respect than before.

Another quote - this time from the bible:
Matthew 7:16 reads, "Ye shall know them by their fruits".

And exactly this I have seen in this discussion.
My respect to Dolly.

ballsymchugh wrote: »

it just takes one kid to mention it in a classroom for it to take like wildfire. kid suggests it to teacher, teacher asks the class, class agree, teacher tells another teacher, spreads to another school.
not sure what kinda mentality the kids have these days regarding charity but when i was a young fella back in the early 90s, we often did charity stuff. every class had a trocaire box, we often went out selling lines around the town. have kids really changed that much?!!

Sorry to contradict this as well - but with my more than 50 years life experience I have NEVER seen a teacher who is easily accepting the suggestion of a kid (whether this is good or bad, doesn't matter!). Even if teachers often are educated pedagogues, most of them still have the 'arrogant' (more or less) attitude of 'adult over kids' mentality. IF - and I say, IF!! - they accept a kid suggestion they never do it as easily as you showed. The mechanism you provided DOES work - but usually if an ADULT does suggest it in the class - hence, the teacher. If it would the other way round it would be like a revolution - and highly improbable. Again, it does not match the children's psychology.

echoindi wrote: »

Looks like to me you would believe anything the media prints no matter what, as a matter of FACT i know for a fact the children approached the bishop back in february regarding giving a donation towards the cathederal, and it is only a fiver, maybe thats giving too much especially if your from cavan.

Well... AGAIN: You are talking of 'facts' but you are not providing those - from where do you 'know' it? Through your quite dodgy words I have to assume you have your knowledge from hearsay and as such this is worthless because it cannot be considered as a fact. Hearsay, rumors and information without identified sources don't help in ANY kind of discussion. I was not only mentioning different (!) media but also several private reports (from people I know). Your story is so different (and nobody so far could support this from identified sources) - and also the child's psychology usually is not such to think within a charity thing! - that this story is very improbable.
That's why I cannot believe this.

dollydimples82 wrote: »

touchy! I dont believe everything that the media prints, i just dont agree with the catholic priest or bishops preaching from the alter looking for donations or speaking about money. Thats the bit that really annoys me, if it was talked about in school no need to bring it to the church

sorry dollydimples i was'nt having a go at you, i was replying to our other friend there, sorry about the mix up, i think the reason it was mentioned in church was simply to tell the people of the childrens good will.

ballsymchugh

dollydimples82 wrote: »

Not wanting to sound mean, but since when do kids talk about giving to charity? I have and still am in contact with lots of kids and have never once heard kids talking of giving donations to charity! I personally believe the idea was 'planted' in the childrens minds and perhaps one or two kids did ask the bishop about giving to the church but considering the amount of child abuse that the church have been quilty of i do not think that it was right to take from kids. Kids are far too young for anyone to be making suggestions too with regard to money or anythin else.

it just takes one kid to mention it in a classroom for it to take like wildfire. kid suggests it to teacher, teacher asks the class, class agree, teacher tells another teacher, spreads to another school.
not sure what kinda mentality the kids have these days regarding charity but when i was a young fella back in the early 90s, we often did charity stuff. every class had a trocaire box, we often went out selling lines around the town. have kids really changed that much?!!

echoindi wrote: »

Looks like to me you would believe anything the media prints no matter what, as a matter of FACT i know for a fact the children approached the bishop back in february regarding giving a donation towards the cathederal, and it is only a fiver, maybe thats giving too much especially if your from cavan.

touchy! I dont believe everything that the media prints, i just dont agree with the catholic priest or bishops preaching from the alter looking for donations or speaking about money. Thats the bit that really annoys me, if it was talked about in school no need to bring it to the church

Looks like to me you would believe anything the media prints no matter what, as a matter of FACT i know for a fact the children approached the bishop back in february regarding giving a donation towards the cathederal, and it is only a fiver, maybe thats giving too much especially if your from cavan.

baldbear wrote: »

I heard this story aswell. It came up in a school as far as i remember. Kids were discussing if they would give money to charities and some kids said what about giving something to the cathedral funds. Fair play to the kids if you ask me. It was a lovely iconic building and will be hopefully again.

Not wanting to sound mean, but since when do kids talk about giving to charity? I have and still am in contact with lots of kids and have never once heard kids talking of giving donations to charity! I personally believe the idea was 'planted' in the childrens minds and perhaps one or two kids did ask the bishop about giving to the church but considering the amount of child abuse that the church have been quilty of i do not think that it was right to take from kids. Kids are far too young for anyone to be making suggestions too with regard to money or anythin else.

baldbear

echoindi wrote: »

I think people are being very unfair to bishop colm o reilly, lets be very clear about this, it was the children in the parish that came to bishop colm o reilly and said th him that they had an idea that they would like to share with him, and it was the children who suggested that any children making their first holy communion could give a small donation of 5 euro only if they wished to the refurbishment of the cathederal.

I heard this story aswell. It came up in a school as far as i remember. Kids were discussing if they would give money to charities and some kids said what about giving something to the cathedral funds. Fair play to the kids if you ask me. It was a lovely iconic building and will be hopefully again.

echoindi wrote: »

I think people are being very unfair to bishop colm o reilly, lets be very clear about this, it was the children in the parish that came to bishop colm o reilly and said th him that they had an idea that they would like to share with him, and it was the children who suggested that any children making their first holy communion could give a small donation of 5 euro only if they wished to the refurbishment of the cathederal.

Well, fine for you that you want to be 'very clear about this' but you are the first one telling this kind of story. All the press reports and personal experiences are matching mainly the first version. Are you an eye/ear witness? If not, I am forced to acknowledge your OPINION as such, but it won't shatter the FACTS so far...

I think people are being very unfair to bishop colm o reilly, lets be very clear about this, it was the children in the parish that came to bishop colm o reilly and said th him that they had an idea that they would like to share with him, and it was the children who suggested that any children making their first holy communion could give a small donation of 5 euro only if they wished to the refurbishment of the cathederal.

dollydimples82 wrote: »

1) everybody loves money!! but unfortunately it doesnt bring the happiness people think.

2) Even if i had the money in the bank i still need to save to buy it, that way i feel like i earned it, sounds silly i know!!

3) It unfortunate that the church has started asking kids for money. Kids are very easily influenced and dont understand the value of money.

4) i have always said that the church cannot teach the people when they have no life experiences. If the priest or Bishops were allowed get married and have kids would they like to 'Give a donation' to refurbishing a cathedral that was fully insured?

(I inserted the numbers for a better overview)

1) Again, I agree. I would not even say it is 'a necessary EVIL' - it is simply 'necessary'. But with all things necessary, if you get too much of it, it acts like 'poison' - and that is exactly what happens to people who have 'too much' - in money, in food, in properties.
2) No, it is not silly at all. This way you keep a sense for values.
3) I agree as well - that is why parents have to agree to childrens decisions - or keep them from wrong ones.
4) Yep - and the second point is: If they would be married and have a regular sexual life, there would no be any 'emotional pressure' to abuse kids - but this would lead to a different thread.

everybody loves money!! but unfortunately it doesnt bring the happiness people think. I love the saying "less is more". I too came from a poor childhood, did me no harm. But it teaches you to appreciate what you've got and respect money more. I had the hand me down clothes, second hand shoes, books, toys etc. We werent rich but we were happy. I knew how loved i was and now if i want something i know that i have to save for it. Even if i had the money in the bank i still need to save to buy it, that way i feel like i earned it, sounds silly i know!!
It unfortunate that the church has started asking kids for money. Kids are very easily influenced and dont understand the value of money. If the bishop intentions were to involve the children in the refurbishment of the cathedral surely there was another way. Prehaps design an art piece to take pride of place, or draw a picture of what confirmation means to them and get it made into a stained glass window, or something like that. the way he said it was just wrong.
i have always said that the church cannot teach the people when they have no life experiences. If the priest or Bishops were allowed get married and have kids would they like to 'Give a donation' to refurbishing a cathedral that was fully insured?

No, Dolly, I did not misconceive you - and I was certainly not criticizing you. I was criticizing the original event - and with that we obviously mutually agree 100%.
The problem is not the money - money is necessary that the economy is working/functioning fluently - it is about collecting so much you cannot even use in a reasonable time, about capitalism and GREED. As I mentioned several posts before, I have had a very poor childhood - money-wise. My parents lived in loads of hardship and so did I. I got very little toys, and often those I got were damaged or second hand. Thus I learned to 'treat' these things well (and not to damage them - more - to throw them against the wall and so on), to repair and refurbish things. I almost literally learned to make gold from ****. A little bit of this thinking could be 'injected' in modern day kids, and they would master their greed and become more humane again.
There is an old saying: Less is more. Quite true.

And (I think this is from Oscar Wilde, my favorite Irishman - unfortunately already very dead): A cynic is a person who knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Hugh, I have spoken. (Chief Red Cloud)

Arkana wrote: »

I simply don't care how this action of the church/bishop was 'meant to be', but I care strongly how it came across. And it came across seriously WRONG.
It is TIME that the church and the 'christian' clerics REMEMBER THE WORDS AND DEEDS OF JESUS and follow his example.
I think these are strange times that I as a Pagan have to put my finger on this...

Just in case you think i was standing up for the bishop, i wasn't. Just trying to see it from his point of view as well as giving mine!

I do not agree with the kids been 'suggested' to give money to the refurbishment of our cathedral. Its just wrong. When i made my confirmation approx 16 or so years ago, it was not about money but about the real meaning of confirmation. Unfortunately, i always thought that the clergys and the likes were to lead a life of poverty and preach the word of god, now it seems how many holidays and how big of cars they have, without naming names or giving away too much, one priest i know has no conscience and would take money off anyone. As i come from a catholic family i have come across many priests down the years and i know that there is only one priest that i have any respect for. He is humble, loving, kind, caring and isnt bothered by money, he even makes his own cards! money is not everything and thats what the church should know. (sorry for rambling:D)
Communions, confirmations, weddings, etc, has turned into who gives what and how much! Totally wrong. People are spoiling their kids turning them into little brats that appreciate nothing.

Well, yes - we have to distinguish two very different things that just by accident come together:
1) The confirmation itself, so just the religious ceremony and the meaning behind it (which, when I hear the youngsters talk about it, in their heads is not longer very important to them - or the most of them) and
2) The perverted effect (like Xmas) of this event having become a mass-gift-massacre. The relative are outbidding themselves who is 'giving' the most (mostly money, nothing really useful else) to the youngsters.
Despite the fact that I think here is still a 'too much' at play, amounts of money those kids have never seen before - and events like this is 'educating' those kids in the wrong way - bluntly said, is putting the 'germ' into them to start being little 'capitalists'. Clearly wrong. And it has nothing to do with religion at all.
As I mentioned above: It has become a bad custom to give too much material things to those events at all. Instead of 'giving love' what it was about in past times. Playing with the kids, talking to them, doing things with them, being a real family! You cannot buy those things - but you can spoil your kids. And that is actually what is happening.
Yes, and I have to agree, kids are (mentally and emotionally) vulnerable. They should NOT (in NO form, not even as a 'suggestion') being tempted to give something that is their own - as long as they don't understand it and do it because of their own free will AND with the consent of the parents.
I simply don't care how this action of the church/bishop was 'meant to be', but I care strongly how it came across. And it came across seriously WRONG.
It is TIME that the church and the 'christian' clerics REMEMBER THE WORDS AND DEEDS OF JESUS and follow his example.
I think these are strange times that I as a Pagan have to put my finger on this...

i read this article in todays irish independent and also heard the bishop speak on shannonside, i could be mistaken but i think the reason behind the asking for money was not meant as it has come across. The bishop spoke about famine times and how people that gave donations have their names in a statue or something like that and as some of the kids were asking about giving money the bishop thought doing the same thing as famine times and if donations were received that they would be acknowledged.
Now before anyone has a go at me, I dont think it was right and i think kids are very vunerable at this age, the cathedral was insured and no fundraising is needed. The same applies to the recent family fun day that was held in flancare "donations" were welcome if you felt like giving, confirmation is not about making money or spending money and this was no talk to be having as kids were receiving the light of confirmation. If anything the bishop should encourage kids to remember why they are making their confirmation

kerash

Children asked to donate confirmation money to St Mel's Cathedral

Children have been asked to contribute their confirmation money towards the restoration of a Longford Cathedral gutted by fire.

Bishop Colm O'Reilly used weekend ceremonies in the diocease of Ardagh and Clonmacnoise to ask youngsters to donate a proportion of their money for a new statue in St Mel's .

Its understood some mass goers were shocked by the plea and felt the church was putting pressure on children to contribute financially. However a diocesean spokesperson says the idea came from children who wanted to help.

More than 2 million Euro worth of damage was caused to St Mel's in the blaze last Christmas Day.

http://www.midlandsradio.fm/news_detail.aspx?footer=1&news_id=11061

Considering the wealth of the Catholic Church I think they have some neck tbh.

I am happy that I had the opportunity to 'make your day'.
Let me give you a compliment (at least it is meant as one) too:
You would make a good pagan. It is not about the name of the god's/esses, it is about the way of thinking...;)
Let me utter this too: I am not a contrahent of christian beliefs - but I am an enemy of any kind of aggressive and suppressive christian fundamentalism. My general opinion is similar to those of the muslimic Sufis: 'Our way is the right one - but it would be wrong to force or even urge someone to follow our way! Eventually s/he will find her/his own way by her/his own...':)

Arkana wrote: »

It is part of the (neo-)Pagan thinking, that you cannot handle out your responsibility at the confession and get responses like :"Say three OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN... here you have a cookie, good guy/girl, continue..." :eek:
We are and we stay responsible for what we are doing, saying and even thinking. Yes, thoughts are free - but with that freedom comes responsibility. And giving up this responsibility just by showing some remorse (whether you really feel it or not - just by SHOWING) and being given the opportunity to continue your previous evil - that is hypocritical for me! :mad:
I am glad that you obviously not a good catholic but a better human being.
If I may be so bold: Feel hugged.;)

haha you make me laugh!! Firstly havent been to confessions in years! I know what i have done wrong (nothing major) but i am most certainly not going to go to confessions and asking a priest for forgiveness. Some of them are worse than we are but of course your not supposed to say that!!:D
I attend mass when its an anniversary mass for members of my deceased family and prehaps i too would be following the 'doctrine' as you describe had i not have experienced a loss that i still cannot understand. I disagree with a lot of the catholic teachings but usually no one wants to hear me! :mad: In this country you are still frowned upon but "turning your back on god" as its often said to me. no one bothers to ask me why., no just judge, i know where and what to do if i need gods help! them i'm a hopocrite!!:( you just cant win!
Finally thank you for the hug:) dont get them too often and you've made my day!!:)

Well - I am not a friend of generalizations (though there are many people who contradict me - but those are simply not reading/hearing my elaborates properly) - but at least you restricted your own generalization with your attached note in brackets.;)
To my experience, many (more two thirds of those I know to my perception - but I am not doing personal statistics) people who call themselves 'catholic' (and not only in this country - but in this country very expressively) follow more or less the main stream of the doctrines.:( (and I don't mean only 'little' things like the 'condom issue' or similar).
I quote you "...obviously I am a catholic (not a good one)..." - well, if thinking for yourself is making you a 'bad' or 'not so good' catholic, then, gladly, welcome to my realm! It does make you a better human being at least. It is part of the (neo-)Pagan thinking, that you cannot handle out your responsibility at the confession and get responses like :"Say three OUR FATHER IN HEAVEN... here you have a cookie, good guy/girl, continue..." :eek:
We are and we stay responsible for what we are doing, saying and even thinking. Yes, thoughts are free - but with that freedom comes responsibility. And giving up this responsibility just by showing some remorse (whether you really feel it or not - just by SHOWING) and being given the opportunity to continue your previous evil - that is hypocritical for me! :mad:
I am glad that you obviously not a good catholic but a better human being.
If I may be so bold: Feel hugged.;)

haha, arkana, us catholics (well this one at least), are more than capable of thinking for ourselves!! I have very strong views on what i believe in. i am at present very angry with the whole god/jesus thing and about 8/9 years ago, i turned my back slightly from the whole lot. (personal reasons), having said that i didnt realise how the cathedral burning down would have impact on it, it didnt change my mind or anythin crazy like that but i felt such a loss on christmas morning, it almost made me cry. i personally would like to think that if another church or temple was destroyed that in perhaps a different way, that i too would feel the loss of the buildings. I am sometimes refered to as a pagan and prehaps in ways i am, i still pray when i need to and i always knew that when i decided that i wanted to attend mass that the cathedral doors were always open, i guess it was like getting a kick up the back side when the fire occured. you see you dont have to be a good catholic to suffer the loss of such a fine historic building

Well, my objective was not to be pleased

but to check whether in this brainwashed catholic country are at least SOME people who can think for themselves - without the all-present catholic doctrine.
I answer with a quote from the bible (the story from Sodom and Gomhorra): "Show me one good man (=human being) in this city and I will not destroy it nor the land around it..."
Obviously you 'qualified' - so, yes, in a certain way I am satisfied (takes a bit more to 'please' me!) and signalize my sympathy to you. Whilst I am not in the position to 'destroy this city' and never have/had the slightest idea to do so (in fact, Jahwe in that particular story in the bible is in my humble opinion the first peoples murderer in human history - not very godly though!), this was simply - for me personally - to make up my mind about the people here.
You give me some hope, dear!;)