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anchoring and using sleepers for a raised patio

DamoKen

Hi, I'm think of building a raised patio at the end of my garden and have been considering materials to use to allow for elevation. Looking at sleepers at the moment for the job so just one or two questions.

Firstly a brief(ish) outline of what I'm thinking of. The dimensions would be as follows (approx):

Length : 420cm
Width : 330cm
Height : 30cm (two sleepers high)

The sleepers forming the sides of the rectangle would be slightly in from the ends due to fencing on either side of the garden with raised concrete around the pillars, so I would think to have each of the outer edges of these 20cm in from the ends.

Using the average dimensions of sleepers length: 2.5 metres, width: 250mm, depth: 150mm, this would mean cutting some of the sleepers to fit. So the lenghtways sides would be composed of (per layer) one full 2.5 metre sleeper plus one 1.7 metre sleeper.

The widthways sides would consist of one full 2.5 metre sleeper and the remaining 80cm sleeper left over after cutting for the above. The layers would be stacked in a crossed pattern, i.e bottom layer for length would be 2.5 plus 1.7 left to right, top 1.7 and 2.5 left to right.

I'd be digging a trench to lay the first layer of sleepers with probably about 5cm above ground, the second layer on top of these would be fully exposed. For bolting the sleepers together I was thinking of using Timberlok fastenings, one at each end of each sleeper and one per centre.

For joining where the sleepers meet perpendicularly I was thinking two timberlok fastenings going from the outer face of the lenghtways sleepers into each end of the widthways. I was also considering right angle steel strips fixed to the inside here with steel screws for added strength.

After fixing all of the sleepers together I'd be filling from ground level to a depth dependent on thickness of tile,cobble etc which I'd like to have just below the lip of the sleeper border. However this would probably be a maximum depth of say 18cm of soil/hardcore/plastic sheet/sand on which to lay the tile, stone or cobble.

Ok, so after all that, the main question is given the shallow depth of this, would it still be necessary to anchor the bottom layer of sleepers in concrete or should the fact they are mainly below ground plus fixed to all the other sleepers to form a rigid box be sufficient?

Another question would be what is the best method of cutting sleepers, would a jigsaw be ok or would you need to go with a chain saw?

Lastly, I've called a few places and been quoted from 25 for new cresote free to 32. 29 for old reclaimed. I've also seen ads for 21 on buy and sell. Are these fairly standard prices or am I just not looking hard enough?

Also, any advice/criticisms on the design I've outlined above would be very welcome, please remember though I'm a newbie to this type of job so be gentle

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baguio

@Damo: Have you gone ahead with your diy project? How did it go?

If not, I can't really help with most of your questions as planning similar but have not followed through with it yet. However, as regards cutting through sleepers, I have been building up my stock of them and have cut a couple to size using an ordinary hand saw - so i'm sure jigsaw will be fine.

the GALL

a jigsaw to cut sleepers?
you mean circular saw.
A jigsaw won't cut sleepers

baguio

the GALL wrote: »

a jigsaw to cut sleepers?
you mean circular saw.
A jigsaw won't cut sleepers

Sorry - of course, yes. I mean't circular.

dardevle

if you have a chainsaw and are comfortable in its use
then i would recommend it, whatever method you do
go for if you are using reclaimed ties watch out for
metal objects,also i find that the handiest way to
anchor/join rr ties is to drill andset them with lenghts
of rebar(to anchor base layer drill a hole and hammer
18inch lenght of rebar thru the tie into the ground)then
the next layer drill 10 inch and pin,never known it to fail.

baguio

dardevle wrote: »

i find that the handiest way to
anchor/join rr ties is to drill andset them with lenghts
of rebar(to anchor base layer drill a hole and hammer
18inch lenght of rebar thru the tie into the ground)then
the next layer drill 10 inch and pin,never known it to fail.

Where do you source a few lengths of rebar?

Martron

the GALL wrote: »

a jigsaw to cut sleepers?
you mean circular saw.
A jigsaw won't cut sleepers

careful when cutting because the fine saw dust with the creosote is an irritant. wear dusk mask and eye protection. i found this out the hard way.

Martron

i would also agree that the chainsaw is far better way to cut sleepers. you only have 1 cut line. with a circular saw you have to come at it from both side and may end up with an uneven cut. also this sleepers as you will find out are old and irregular and if you are joining some end to end you will have to alter the 2 facs so they join snuggly together. chainsaw far better.

the GALL

you'll get rebar from a steel merchant(scrap yard) or you could try a building site and the best way would be to ask the teleporter driver(ahem) if he could source some 18 or 22mm rebarcut into 3' lenghts give him a day ot two to get it together. Id say €20/€25 should do it. you'll have them cut plus the right amount.

Martron

never seen 22mm bar on site. anyway thats irrelevant. they are very big bars and 12mm steel will do perfect for pins. and you really should not just walk on to a building site.

you are right though there is always scrap lying around a building site and i am sure someone will have no problem throwing you a bar or too.

DamoKen

sorry for getting back to you so late lads, thought this thread had died a death so haven't been checking my mail

Some good advice all round there, I'm only actually getting the sleepers delivered this weekend after a number of delays due to work\wedding\holidays etc so will definitely be putting it to good use.

The idea of using rebar is interesting, was thinking of something similar only I wasn't sure what material to use or where to get it. Some building work has started just up the road from me so might pop over tomorrow and see if they've any scrap. Failing that any alternatives you could source from a building providers, steel pinions of some sort?

Got a chainsaw sorted from a mate, cheers for the tips on metal embedded in them and cresote in the sawdust, I'll take the appropriate precautions.

Baguio did you get yours finished? Any pics

baguio

DamoKen wrote: »

Baguio did you get yours finished?

Still work in progress. I have been using the new non-creosoted sleepers. Been treating them with sadolin classic. Have them cut to length. Have holes drilled (to slot in rebar - and sourced some rebar - although needs to be cut.

This is for an initial raised bed. Have another section which I was planning on too - but may hold back and see how well this one weathers and how it looks as between sleepers and preservative, its starts getting expensive! Don't mind spending the cash as long as they're going to last.
Will be lining the inside 'walls' with plastic. Also, think I might try and 'raise' the sleepers ever so slightly so that excess moisture can run off the bottom level.

Should get to finish it off early next week.

baguio

DamoKen wrote: »

Any pics

Managed to get the first one finished. Just a small raised bed. Have another triangular section to do which will be 3/4 times the size of the one shown.

pic 1
pic 2

Doesn't look the finished article yet - with the mess all round it. Won't until thats cleared and its planted up. As you can see from first pic, lined it with heavy grade plastic. Have used the rebar through it to support it - and that seems to have worked out well. On the last layer of sleepers, I made the mistake of drilling all the way through on one of the sleepers - meaning that rebar is showing :rolleyes:
Other bodge I made was in joining the short bits at the front with complete sleeper. Should have done this before moving them into place as ended up not having them flush. Again, once its planted up, it shouldnt be so bad.

Martron

looks good but i have one comment and i hope you dont make me making it. you see on the front you have all the short pieces on one side if you staggered the joints it might look more even.

dardevle

nice job there baguio....for the next planter i would suggest
the same advice as matron and stagger the long/short
pieces, also to overlap the corners every other course,
this will give you a much stronger construction.

baguio

Yes, in hindsight I can see your right!

Martron

dont get me wrong still looks very good

DamoKen

cheers for the pics Bagio, not bad at all

. got most of what I need so I've started on my one. decided in the end due to the size of them that rather than cutting the sleepers to fit I'd stagger them. That is one perpendicular to one border fence, another perpendicular to the opposite fence, and each sitting flush to the other raised on their sides.

The same with two staggered on either side lying parallel to the fences and another 2 staggered perpendicular at the opposite end, about 15.5 sq mts in total. All are lying in trenches I've dug 8cm approx in depth.

Decided on 10" timberlok bolts to fix them to each other, bought a box of 50 so reckon that should be more than enough to hold it together, that and the weight of the things.

What I ordered after seeing the samples the place had in stock is not what was delivered. There was a bit of a mix up so ended up with these massive hardwood yokes over 10ft long!!! Some of them are incredibly thick as well and require 2 people to lift with difficulty.

The guy that delivered them said on no account try and use a chainsaw as they broke the chain on one up at the yard when they tried, in the end they used a hacksaw meant for cutting metal!

So that was one of the deciding factors on not cutting them

, also figured that by staggering them rather than laying them end to end the strength of the frame would be improved.

I''l post up pics when I get a bit further along.

the watchman

Hi all,
It's a bit late since your last postings but I am about to start similar project with sleepers. Any one tell me where I can get 'Timberlok' screws in Ireland.
Any chance you could post pics of projects again as I can't bring them up with existing links.

Thanks for your time.

DamoKen

Hi Watchman, if I remember rightly I couldn't source Timberloks this side of the states or maybe it was any I found were really expensive? Ended up ordering them through Amazon.com. Just looked up my order history and these were the fellas I bought -> http://www.amazon.com/Omg-FMTLOK10-50-50PK-Timberlok-Screw/dp/B0006OEO16/ref=pd_ys_iyr2 .

The delivery date when I went to order was something stupid like two months but think they actually arrived in less than 2 weeks.

Highly recommend them anyway, just make sure you've got or borrow/rent a really powerful drill if you're using old treated sleepers.

Never got around to posting up pics on this thread, forgot to

the watchman

Hi Damoken,
Thanks for replying.
The link might be usefull for the screws. Amazing how these projects develop a life of their own which all you can do is 'go with!'.
I thought , ten sleepers, 50 long wood screws, can of coke

and away you go ,job done,...not so lol. Did a lot of research first and I still yet don't know if it was a good thing or bad thing.
I stumbled across this Timberlok phenomena and thought..gotta have 'em!. (more money), then I find that my domestic power drill or my portable 14.4v won't do either, now have to go and get the variable speed etc etc. Then I think I'll have to cement a support piece into the ground which I didn't bargain for, ..Wheres this all going to end I wonder.lol.

Fortunately the sleepers are just plain old deal ..or is it pine, soft wood anyway (enclosed pic).

I haven't started anything yet by the way,..in no rush to kill myself yet lol.

My next dillema(which I will be putting up on another thread later) is this:-
I have to create a wall with 3 sleepers stacked side on side =24inches high (sleepers are 8ftx8inchx4inch). I have to attatch one end of these to a rendered block wall...(AT AN ANGLE),see pics.
I still have no idea how to do it yet.
When finished there will be nothing on one side of my new wall but limestone chips up to the top on the other side. So has to be strong. The sleeper wall will be 7ft long.
All thoughts on above welcome!

paddy147

Keep it nice and simple lads.

let the sheer weight of the sleepers lock and hold each other into place,use some large wooden fence stakes behind them with the sleepers screwed or naild into the stakes,and also some large stainless steel L shaped brackets to secure the parts of the sleepers to the brick wall.

A few 6mm rawl plugs and screws and it wont move an inch.

Also mix in laods of manure and compost and then place a layer/sheet of weed fabric on top,then 2 inches of chip bark.This keeps the weeds out and also helps to lock in rain and moisture,which is good,especially on a hot muggy day like we had today.Your plants will love you for it.

What we did last year.

From horrible weedy sh!t hole of a back garden to a lovely and relaxing place to sit out with a cuppa tea and enjoy the weather and plants.:)

the watchman

Thanks for those thoughts Paddy, will keep them in mind.

You did a nice job there yourself. The genuine old sleepers, full of character. I have a few in back garden but only laid in straight line/ single layer, nothing fancy.

I'm still a little bit daunted by this latest project and think that the easiest thing to do would be just to forget about it and come round to your place and enjoy the tea and sunshine there :Dlol

Thanks again Paddy

paddy147

the watchman wrote: »

Thanks for those thoughts Paddy, will keep them in mind.

You did a nice job there yourself. The genuine old sleepers, full of character. I have a few in back garden but only laid in straight line/ single layer, nothing fancy.

I'm still a little bit daunted by this latest project and think that the easiest thing to do would be just to forget about it and come round to your place and enjoy the tea and sunshine there :Dlol

Thanks again Paddy

No problem.

Im no gardener or garden designer,believe you me.Sure I cant even tell a flower from a weed,if the truth be known.

Its my girlfriend who has the degree in horticulture.

the watchman

Hi all,
Thanks for all the suggestions. Have talked to a good few people.
Final decision is to go with two small posts in cement. I''ve done cement posts before and a nieghbour whos good at mixing owes me a favour:D. also saves me destroying that wall with my bad builiding skills lol.

For those interested heres a few pics of how its going.

From that 24inch sleeper wall I hope to step down a couple of times to the front of the garden.

So this is phase one. After many sleepless nights I came up with a basic design. Pain of an area, all sloping and angles:(.
So Anyway..............

the watchman

And for Paddy and all those interested in sleeper projects go to....

http://www.railwaysleeper.com/Customers%20ideas,%20photos%20and%20projects.htm

Its amazing!

the watchman

I am determine to get some Timberlok screws but they are hard to find in Ireland. Just found out that 4 Home Builders in Middleton Co Cork do them..(Crystal swing country lol). I asked on phone for a quote for a pack of 50, they didn't have a price there and then for me, it was very late in the day but said that they only do them in 'boxes'. Sounds too many and probably expensive. I don't know how many are in a box, perhaps someone might like to share a box with me !!!:).

Will let you know how I get on .

dardevle

.....

this may be an option for ya..

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/40-200mm-TIMBERFIX-HEX-HEAD-SLEEPER-SCREW-TIMBERLOK-/190382644922?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_DIY_Material_Nails_Fixing_MJ&hash=item2c53b09eba

many different sizes and quantities available.

....

dunsandin

Good Lord, a whole load of waffle and plans about a 1 hour job. Less faffing went into building the eiffel tower. Get the bloomin sleepers laid and stop making a mountain out of your molehill. In fairness...

the watchman

dunsandin wrote: »

Good Lord, a whole load of waffle and plans about a 1 hour job. Less faffing went into building the eiffel tower. Get the bloomin sleepers laid and stop making a mountain out of your molehill. In fairness...

Briliant Dunsandin, THANKS A MILLION. 'Twas the inspiration I've been looking for all this time. Now then the only question is how high will I build this tower and how sharp will the point be!. I know, I'll get you to test the point...........

If I find it's going to take me more than an hour I'll throw you €100 and you can finish it off. Good money for an hours work these days I think.

Thanks again, us amateurs really need professionals like you around the site.

dunsandin

Its a few sleepers with some soil in. If it was the finishing touch on a job, I would send 2 lads and allow for a mornings doddeling. You can see these posts all the time- 3 months of discussion and hand wringing, and the job will probably never be done, due to overthinking. Buy a few sleepers, level up where theyre going with a spade,plump them down, drill some holes and bang in a bit of rebar, overlap the corner joints to give some strength, fill with soil and nice plants, jobs oxo. As the Americans say, geddit done. I know im not exactly massaging your ego with my words, and I would love to be the type to make you a nice cup of tea and we could have a long moist conversation about the "Project", but in fairness, its a flowerbed. How hard do you think it could be? God, im getting sucked into the drama vaccuum.