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The Sub 3 Support Thread

--amadeus--

Not sure if this is a viable thread or not....

There tends to be a lot of support for newbies and improver's (the two mentored DCM threads, the Tri Novice thread for example) but less of a community vibe as you move up the pace. I know a lot of us read each others logs but I'll read 10 for every one I comment in and I'm sure others are the same.

And I know that there are a few of us aiming at sub 3 this autumn. I'm taking a crack at it in Amsterdam, Village Runner and Peckham in Berlin, SunGod in Dublin. I'm sure SloggerJogger is going to take another pop at it as well having come so close. And of course we have a lot of runners who have already gone sub 3 (and faster). And the Sub 3 thread on RunnersWorld is very busy and popular.

So here we go - if it works it works, if it sinks it sinks!

And to start - I'm a little concerned about my weekly mileage. This week is pretty poor (I'll be lucky to get mid 30s) and I've been doing 40s for the last couple of weeks with the intention of doing 6 - 8 weeks of 50 - 60 mpw as teh basis of my attempt.

Do you think that's enough? What sort of mileage are you all doing and planning?

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MayoRoadRunner

Hi all, could'nt bring myself to even look at this thread the past 11 days. Tore a quad muscle 11 days ago. Spent few hours with physical therapist, few hours in O2 compression chamber, light stretching and iced it every 10 mins during the acute stage of the recovery. Rested it completely save for a light swim and few light spins on turbo trainer. Tried a light run on it last night and could only manage 3 strides when i had to stop because of the pain. My planned race (Rotterdam) is in 10 days so to go from 3 strides to 26.2 miles in 10 days is not looking achieveable. Leg is still very sore so complete rest seems like the only solution. Gutted to say the least as I had put in the hard miles during a terrible winter. Training was going well and had a decent 10km time on paddies day (35.11) so was confident of breaking 2.55. Its not to be. Will wait until I have fully recovered and may aim for a race in late May or else just hold off until DCM in October.
To those of you still lucky to be out on the roads I wish you the best of luck with your sub 3 attempt. Hoping ye all stay fit and healthy. MRR

Krusty_Clown

Sorry to hear that MayoRoadrunner. Hope the recovery is swift. Don't rush it. All those winter miles will still be hiding there someplace, waiting for your next assault. Congrats on a fantastic 10k time.

MayoRoadRunner

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

Sorry to hear that MayoRoadrunner. Hope the recovery is swift. Don't rush it. All those winter miles will still be hiding there someplace, waiting for your next assault. Congrats on a fantastic 10k time.

Thanks Krusty, will keep the faith!

theboyblunder

MayoRoadRunner wrote: »

Hi all, could'nt bring myself to even look at this thread the past 11 days. Tore a quad muscle 11 days ago. Spent few hours with physical therapist, few hours in O2 compression chamber, light stretching and iced it every 10 mins during the acute stage of the recovery. Rested it completely save for a light swim and few light spins on turbo trainer. Tried a light run on it last night and could only manage 3 strides when i had to stop because of the pain. My planned race (Rotterdam) is in 10 days so to go from 3 strides to 26.2 miles in 10 days is not looking achieveable. Leg is still very sore so complete rest seems like the only solution. Gutted to say the least as I had put in the hard miles during a terrible winter. Training was going well and had a decent 10km time on paddies day (35.11) so was confident of breaking 2.55. Its not to be. Will wait until I have fully recovered and may aim for a race in late May or else just hold off until DCM in October.
To those of you still lucky to be out on the roads I wish you the best of luck with your sub 3 attempt. Hoping ye all stay fit and healthy. MRR

ahh jaysus thats awful luck. 35'11 is a fantastic 10k time. you will smash 3 hrs at will when you get back. Plenty of marathons in the early/late summer!

Rest up and get well soon

smmoore79

Thats a kick in the teeth to say the least! With 35 mins in a 10km, Sub 2.50 would have been very achievable on the day. Hopefully you'll find another marathon not too far off.

Sosa

Sorry to hear that MMR,as said above 35:11 is a great 10k time,Sub 2:55 is well within your reach...hope your back soon.

--amadeus--

Gutted for you. Best of luck with the recovery

MayoRoadRunner

theboyblunder wrote: »

ahh jaysus thats awful luck. 35'11 is a fantastic 10k time. you will smash 3 hrs at will when you get back. Plenty of marathons in the early/late summer!

Rest up and get well soon

Thanks theboyblunder, won't even look at the calender of races until i am fully recovered as not sure how long it will take. Best of luck in your attempt

smmoore79 wrote: »

Thats a kick in the teeth to say the least! With 35 mins in a 10km, Sub 2.50 would have been very achievable on the day. Hopefully you'll find another marathon not too far off.

Thanks smmoore, sub 2.50 might be a bit ambitious for second attempt at distance but some day maybe! Plenty of time for day dreaming during thsi crappy recovery period! Good luck with the training

Sosa wrote: »

Sorry to hear that MMR,as said above 35:11 is a great 10k time,Sub 2:55 is well within your reach...hope your back soon.

Cheers Sosa, hoping it won't be too long. Will report back here once i'm back on the road

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Gutted for you. Best of luck with the recovery

Thanks amadeus, best of luck with the training and all, next time I post on this thread i'll be fit, abled and hungry to tackle the distance. MRR

Peckham

I think we all feel your pain MayoRoadRunner, as we all live in fear of that happening in the latter stages of training. However, if there is any time of year to pick up the injury then this is it....huge number of marathons locally and around Europe over the next few months and right through to DCM. Hopefully you don't need to wait until October to achieve what your training deserves, and that you'll be on the road again soon.

ecoli

Hey Guys
I have been considering this long and hard and decided now that i finishing up in college i gonna have more free time so now would be the best opprtunity to do this.
Basically i am looking to get into coaching and seeing as there is nearly thirty weeks till Dublin i thought now would be a good time to recruit if people wanted to start a program. I have used myself as a guinea pig since last september with a new training program and have had reasonable success in my goal race.
I dont have any AAI coaching qualifications so it would be at your own peril but i can guarantee to give full commitment to any athlete. Looking for fairly seasoned athletes (a year or 18 months +) possibly someone who is stuck at 3.05-3.10 and is looking to break that barrier though this is not a neccessity main thing is a good work ethos and would be willing to consider any times really.
Ideally would be near the Dublin area so i could manage to not just be a virtual coach and get to some training sessions and an athlete would be having to be able to commit to 50+ miles a week.
Anyone interested in this or wishes to know more or maybe even see possible general training outline or sample weekly schedule PM me

ergo

Originally Posted by tergat
On race day be PATIENT until 18 miles going out at 6.55 pace until then. Make sure to keep the first 4-5 miles at 6.55-7.05 pace and no faster. Then at 18 miles and ONLY then do you pick things up and come home strong.

Peckham wrote: »

I have booked an appointment to get this text tattoo'd along the inside of my arm.

sorry for pushing my way into this thread - I have been a million miles away from A/R/T forum for past 6 months after two sub 3 attempts in 2009 (3:02:57 and 3:01:49)

am sure there are lots of opinions on this thread re pacing but in hindsight I think I would have gone out faster - IIRC I was aiming at 6:50 or 6:52 min miles

even or negative split all well and good but since then I've read of studies which show that everyone slows down in marathon pace towards the end (that's the average among overall runners in the particular studies - reference Lore of Running - Noakes (4th Ed p 636)). Obviously the elite or top level may maintain even or negative split

if and when I go for sub 3 again I think I'll be starting out at a faster pace than those I've already mentioned above - maybe 6:45 or 6:48 if I could manage it

misty floyd

Ergo, I'm going for it myself tomorrow. I've had a lot of good advice from people here saying be careful not to go too slow and that it is very hard to make up the time come 20miles. All good advice but not all advice is right for every individual. Tergats advice above is the rough plan I have in my head. I'll explain why I'm not going to go for 6:50m/m from mile 0-26.2 (thanks for the advice anyway folks

I've blown up twice in the two marathons I've done. This I'm sure was from going out too fast (and low mileage).
My own personal best performances in races are when I went out slightly conservatively and took it home at half way (a half and a 10miler).
I'm right on the edge of sub 3 attempt status so I can't take a big chance. It means it makes sence to be conservative at the start.
Most of my LSR's had PMP miles at the end. My thinking is my body will be used to a steady increase in pace and stress in the second half.
If I blow up with this somewhat conservative approach imagine what would happen if I ran faster at the start.
I'm not obsessed with getting sub 3 (but believe me I'm going for it) and I think you need to be flexible if not everything is going right on the day. Hard to be flexible if you went out too fast.
Pretty much all of my training has been based on advice from Tergat. I have full confidence in my training and in his advice (teachers pet ).
I want to get encouragment from passing people that paced marathons like me in the past. That will give me a lot of confidence to put DCM to bed.
This 'be patient', take it easy at the start approach feels right for me and thats the most important thing.

I'm making a lot of assumptions I know.

Sorry for just talking about myself but thats the only thing I can go on....I'm not that experienced. I realise if I just fail on the sub 3, it might be down to going out too conservatively and I'll be a little annoyed maybe but I'll have learned a lot. If I blow up completely, then I am not good enough for sub 3 or I'm simply not cut out for marathons.

Can I ask, do you think you failed twice on the sub 3 attempt just due to pacing? Your quote from the report that everyone slows down at the end, is that true because everyone gets to half way a little too fast? or starts a little too fast? Who knows. You gotta do what feels right. Best of luck.

Fantastic thread folks, thanks for all of the advice. Hopefully I'll have a positive report to post in here.

TheRoadRunner

misty floyd wrote: »

Your quote from the report that everyone slows down at the end, is that true because everyone gets to half way a little too fast? or starts a little too fast?

That would be my thinking.

My last few miles are usually my quickest. I think this is a psychological thing though, as I get get closer to the finish I push harder to get the race over and done with.

Krusty_Clown

ergo wrote: »

everyone slows down in marathon pace towards the end

Couldn't disagree with you more and it's definitely not something you should be posting where other budding sub-3 marathoners could interpret it as fact. If a runner is slowing down towards the end, and misses their target by a couple of minutes, I think it's down to insufficient training, poor pacing, or extenuating circumstances (unfavourable weather, ill health on the day, etc)..

If you want to crack sub-3, then train for 2:55 or faster, so that when you head out at 6:38 it feels right. Don't do the same training again, and hope that heading out faster is going to make a difference. You've got to change a different variable.

ergo

ergo wrote: »

even or negative split all well and good but since then I've read of studies which show that everyone slows down in marathon pace towards the end (that's the average among overall runners in the particular studies - reference Lore of Running - Noakes (4th Ed p 636)).

oops!
Apologies for the way I inititally wrote the above quote, in particular for putting "everyone slows down" in bold - not very scientfic and please accept my grovelling apologies

The quote should be taken in the context that that was the outcome of a a study based on what looks like 6 different marathons in Japan in the early 1990's (study by Buoncristiani and Martin 1993)

the graphs of split times to distance illustrated this very clearly to me (they are to be found in "Lore of Running" on the page I mentioned above - unfortunately I can't find an online link). Interestingly this was true for both the best 10% of runners and the worst 10% of runners.

now one study does not make fact etc

and to elaborate further next time I attempt a sub 3 I will go out faster but the reason I didn't make it last year were
1. insufficient training - inititally hindered by injury
2. long slow runs at too slow pace (slightly slower training partner for LSR's)
3. poor prep especially neglecting a proper stretching routine from very early on and subsequent very tight calves hampering later training runs

my second attempt was 5 weeks after the first and I shouldn't have gone for it but felt good on the day and gave it a lash but fell short. It wasn't poor pacing, I just didn't have it in me. Next time I would hope to feel comfortable going out at 6:40 ( :eek: ) and see what happens. But hey, I struggled through a 9 miler this morning on a beautiful sunny day - am a long way from sub 3!

best of luck tomorrow misty - stick with your plan (obviously!)

misty floyd

My third time posting this race report on boards

but feck it. Its a sub 3 support thread and its a sub 3 attempt. This is from my log.

What got me here
I suppose this all started at around mile 19 of DCM 09. I worked my ass off for that race and that sinking body shut down feeling was something I never wanted to feel again. Investing so much into one race for it to fall apart like that was hard for me. I had to fix it.

Training
Hiding at my desk in work the week after DCM, I came across this thread (Improving for next time) and some posts by Tergat. It was time to make things simple and address the endurance problems I had in my two marathons (Belfast 09 3:40:?? and DCM 09 3:25:??). No more weekly racing guys in the club during tempo sessions. I completed two marathon specific runs per week and lots of easy miles in between. I’ve attached my training plan again. I really enjoyed training this time around, no injuries and lots more energy. I also dropped a few more pounds which was a bonus. I ran a 10m race 4 weeks before the marathon in Craughwell (great race) and finished strong with 62min 12s. This, and confidence in my training, confirmed for me what several people had suggested....go for sub3.

Race Plan
I made up my mind to go for a negative split. I always perform better when I do that and I thought it a safer approach plus I felt confident about that. Starting off with ~ 7:00 m/m for the first couple, reach half way at around 1:31:00 and take it home at 18m. I was confident of this, why not.

Race Day
I woke up and felt no butterflies, no worries. It was like any morning getting up for work. I just got it done. I went for breakfast and scoffed strange tasting muesli and 3 slices of bread. I said goodbye to my girlfriend and got into the D pen pretty early. It was windy, which I wasn’t worried about but it did make things colder having to wait around. It was nearly time and we were treated to “You’ll never walk alone”. “Boom”, the canons went off and it was time to go....finally.

The Race
I punched the watch at the mat and started the weaving. Despite being at the top of the D pen, there were lots of slower runners. I missed the first km so I didn’t get to check my pace band but my watch did beep at the first mile: 7:18. That’s ok; I expected that, so I continued at a similar effort. Still avoiding people, I missed the 2km mark.

You know when you are driving your car over the speed limit (e.g. the roads on the way to Heuston?) and out of nowhere, a transit van is parked on the side of the road or a garda with a speed gun? ..............“Beep”, mile 2: 6:07:eek: Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck! I hit the brakes. Ok man you’re an idiot but you’re in control here. I didn’t panic, it’s a long race. I thought about it for a bit and thought that the plan of ~6:50 – 6:55m/m would be important now. I couldn’t take the chance of eating into those vital glycogen reserves especially now that I had made a withdrawal so early.

I followed that up with a 6:59. Miles 3-18 were like an LSR for me. Not in terms of effort but the way they past uneventful like, lost in my thoughts, thinking about how I felt and what my pace was like. I wasn’t thinking about anything else. I did start talking to a guy that I had spotted at our hotel. “Are you Irish?” I asked. A Kilkenny man, going for the 3. He asked me if I was on for it and I said “about a minute behind....that’s alright”. I was surprised with myself that I talked to anybody but I also noticed how easy it was to talk. How easy 6:50m/m was compared to the PMP miles in training. For these 15 or so miles it was just a case of getting the job done. The wind at points was tough and trying to shelter, I found myself running a little slower than I wanted. So I took wind quite a bit. Again, no panic, this is part of the race. I got a shout at around miles 12&13 from my GF and a mate from the club. I smiled and thanked them, that was great. I was enjoying it.

Splits mile 4 - 18:
6:54/6:52/6:47/6:52/6:50/6:57/6:51/6:40/6:53/6:52/6:58/6:51/6:39/6:48

During lots of these miles, any km marker I saw, I would check my stopwatch and check my pace band. The font was too small and it was pissing me off. It was a total distraction. When I did read things correctly, I seemed to be 60 – 70 seconds behind sub 3 up to mile 18. My half marathon time was 1:31:04, just 4 seconds outside where I wanted to be.

Like most of my LSR’s that ended with PMP miles, I went into mile 18 not knowing how it would feel. It felt ok.

18: 6:41 / 19: 6:39 / 20: 6:39 / 21: 6:44

So 20 came and went and I didn’t feel it, not that I feared it. I started to see people walking and I was overtaking lots and lots of people. I felt great doing this. Mile 22: 6:34 and it was starting to hurt. Not a shutdown, more of an all body ache. I saw two people puking sub 3 on the side of the road and tons of dutch people shouting encouragement. I didn’t need any. In the past I needed it but I was in the zone....kind of loving it in a weird way.
I got so fed up looking at the watch and trying to work out what I was behind sub 3 that I just dropped that plan and decided to run to the end as fast as I could...what more could I do. This was the case from mile 18 really.

Mile 23: 6:47 and mile 24: 6:46.

I knew I was close but serious work to do and I remembered what Tunguska told me to read 2 minutes before I left the house the day before the race. He told me to read a piece from Jack Daniels book. If you are struggling, increase the pace. I wanted to see how that felt. I put the foot down. Within 300m I came across a sponge stop, grabbed one and some water went down my nose. Increasing the pace like that felt horrible and I think the water gave me an excuse to drop that faster than fast pace. I just couldn’t do it, my body was screaming at me.

My left quad started to tighten and I feared it could pull me to the side of the road if I wasn’t careful. I could only manage Mile 25 at: 6:51. That tightness kind of went by kicking my ass with my heel (if you get me). Mile 26: 6:40 and with teeth grinding and arms pumping the last half mile (26.5 on garmin) was at a pace of 6:06 m/m.

I think I knew at mile 24 that the sub 3 was gone but it wasn’t really until 200m to go that I looked at the watch and knew it wasn’t there. “Go Andy”, I heard my GF say. I crossed the line completely overjoyed. I ran a damn solid race.

3:00:30

Afterthoughts:
I’d be lying if I said I didn’t have a bit of regret about the 31 seconds. The second mile? The wind? Should I have worked harder on earlier miles to go slightly under 6:50m/m? Should I have taken the 4/5 people advice on this log to run even splits? It’s funny when you get a time like that. Everyone’s reaction is like the reaction people have when watching you’ve been framed type clips of people falling. I feel like I have to say, “Relax, it’s ok I’m delighted”. That’s my time and nobody can take it from me. Nite nite DCM.

Sorry for the ramblings. Its good getting this out of the head and I’d recommend posting a race report regardless of a good or bad experience. Thanks to everyone for posting on A/R/T especially in the logs. They are a huge benefit to read through, and figure out what might work for you. The good wishes and advice are also priceless. It was also great to put some faces to names in the Irish bar that night and great to hear of so many great performances.

Almost Everything in its right PACE

misty floyd

ergo wrote: »

best of luck tomorrow misty - stick with your plan (obviously!)

Thanks ergo. Just so you know, I wouldn't change much about how I ran the race except mile 2. It bagged me a lot of time but so early wasn't good. I still reached half way on target but I don't know and will never know how that 6:07m/m effected my sub 3 attempt. Next marathon I do, I will pace it for a negative split.

Gringo78

Some sobering stats from the London marathon:

969 runners ran first half between 1:28:00 and 1:32:00 - only 122 or 12.6% ended up sub 3

133 runners ran 'even' splits (1:29:45 to 1:30:15) - only 10 or 7.5% ended up sub 3

250 runners ran 1:30:00 to 1:31:00 - 19 ended up sub 3 (7.6%)
204 runners ran 1:31:00 to 1:32:00 - of these 2 went on to finish sub 3

No one ran the first half slower than 1:32 and went to finsih sub 3.

239 runners ran 1:29:00 to 1:30:00 - 29 (12%) went on to finish sub 3
276 runners ran 1:28:00 to 1:29:00 - 72 (26%) went on to finish sub 3

188 runners ran 1:27 to 1:28 - 75 (40%) went on to finish sub 3
165 runners ran 1:26 to 1:27 - 99 (60%) went on to finish sub 3

Lies, damned lies & statistics.....probably statistical analysis of marathon results are useless for working out the best tactic for running sub 3 because its a target for too many people and thus many throw caution to the wind and go for it when they're not ready??

To test this theory, I also checked sub 2:48, a less 'magic' figure (but no less magic) - 195 runners ran 1:22 to 1:24 but only 39 or 15% finished sub 2:48. 267 runners ran 1:24 to 1:26 but only 1 went on to finish sub 2:48. Of the 67 runners who ran 1:23:45 to 1:24:15, only 2 went on to break 2:48.

Sosa

Gringo78 wrote: »

Some sobering stats from the London marathon:

969 runners ran first half between 1:28:00 and 1:32:00 - only 122 or 12.6% ended up sub 3

133 runners ran 'even' splits (1:29:45 to 1:30:15) - only 10 or 7.5% ended up sub 3

250 runners ran 1:30:00 to 1:31:00 - 19 ended up sub 3 (7.6%)
204 runners ran 1:31:00 to 1:32:00 - of these 2 went on to finish sub 3

No one ran the first half slower than 1:32 and went to finsih sub 3.

239 runners ran 1:29:00 to 1:30:00 - 29 (12%) went on to finish sub 3
276 runners ran 1:28:00 to 1:29:00 - 72 (26%) went on to finish sub 3

188 runners ran 1:27 to 1:28 - 75 (40%) went on to finish sub 3
165 runners ran 1:26 to 1:27 - 99 (60%) went on to finish sub 3

Lies, damned lies & statistics.....probably statistical analysis of marathon results are useless for working out the best tactic for running sub 3 because its a target for too many people and thus many throw caution to the wind and go for it when they're not ready??

To test this theory, I also checked sub 2:48, a less 'magic' figure (but no less magic) - 195 runners ran 1:22 to 1:24 but only 39 or 15% finished sub 2:48. 267 runners ran 1:24 to 1:26 but only 1 went on to finish sub 2:48. Of the 67 runners who ran 1:23:45 to 1:24:15, only 2 went on to break 2:48.

your some man for the figures,Gringo...
This sub 3 seems like a near impossible task judging by those numbers.
Just shows how hard it is.
As you said,it shows no indication of the best way to approach it.

Krusty_Clown

Interesting reading, but here's a thought: anybody who is trying to achieve a sub3 and runs 1:29:45 to 1:30:15 is either extremely lucky, or misguided. To aim to get within 15 seconds of your goal pace after 13.1 miles, you are either extremely lucky, extremely good, or trying to force the issue by running entirely based on what your watch is telling you, and not how you feel.

Now coming from me (Garmin nerd and negative split junky advocate), that may sound like the greatest ever hypocrisy, but I also feel that if you are letting your watch entirely dictate your pace, such that you arrive at the half way point within 15 seconds of your target, then it is likely that you will have (at some point) had to run too fast, or too slow in order to hit the specific target (more or less than your body was prepared to give at a particular point in time). The goal of racing a marathon is not to run evenly throughout, but to run to the best of your ability. At times in the race you will need to run to your strength (when you feel good) and give in slightly to your weakness (when you feel tired, to rest). I still maintain that the best way to run sub3, is to train for 2:55 or better and let that be your goal.

How many runners finished 3:00 to 3:01, because they cut the margins too tight?

Gringo78

Sosa wrote: »

This sub 3 seems like a near impossible task judging by those numbers.
Just shows how hard it is.
As you said,it shows no indication of the best way to approach it.

Yeah, I've given up any wild thoughts I had of of going 2:55 or the like...2:59:59 is all I want and it'll be tough to get.

Gringo78

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I still maintain that the best way to run sub3, is to train for 2:55 or better and let that be your goal.

How many runners finished 3:00 to 3:01, because they cut the margins too tight?

493 runners ran 1:29 to 1:31 - 48 went on to run sub 3 while only 13 missed it by up to a minute, 18 by 1-2min, 65 by 2-5min & 152 by 5-10min. So it would seem its not poor timekeeping or cutting it too fine.

I would agree that to be capable of 2:55 is going to make sub 3 easier, and thats probably back to my original point....if you train and think on the day 3:01 is possible if all goes right, well then you're going to aim for sub 3 aren't you, and things will not turn out good. Whereas if you believe you are capable of 2:55 and run by feel looking for sub 3 , well then, high chance of success probably.

tisnotover

interesting reading Gringo, I wonder how stats for Cork compare, think only 20/30 people went sub-3 last year in the heat?

Krusty_Clown

Gringo78 wrote: »

493 runners ran 1:29 to 1:31 - 48 went on to run sub 3 while only 13 missed it by up to a minute, 18 by 1-2min, 65 by 2-5min & 152 by 5-10min. So it would seem its not poor timekeeping or cutting it too fine.

What I'm actually suggesting is that 493 runners had a target to hit sub-3, and many of those 445 people didn't hit their target as they worked too hard to get to their 1/2 marathon target, rather than cutting it fine or bad time-keeping. Maybe I'm just completely wrong. But one thing I am sure of, the more you build it up to be a difficult task, the more difficult a task it will become. I think if you ask Misty Floyd now, he'll tell you that it is very achievable.

Sosa

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

I still maintain that the best way to run sub3, is to train for 2:55 or better and let that be your goal.

I wont know for another 6 weeks if you are right Krusty,but thats the way i'm thinking of it aswell.
All my pmp miles are around 6:35 pace,i have not done any over 6:40 yet,and hopefully that makes running at 6:52 easier for the last 6.2m.
You would simply be cutting it to fine of you did pmp miles at 6:50.

Gringo78

Sosa wrote: »

I wont know for another 6 weeks if you are right Krusty,but thats the way i'm thinking of it aswell.
All my pmp miles are around 6:35 pace,i have not done any over 6:40 yet,and hopefully that makes running at 6:52 easier for the last 6.2m.
You would simply be cutting it to fine of you did pmp miles at 6:50.

Maybe Krusty can correct me, but I think what krusty is advocating is different than what you're planning Sosa....you plan to be in 2:50-2:55 shape come marathon day but you'll run 6:50 miles...Krusty is I think suggesting you run by feel on the day, hitting 6:35 miles if it feels right and easing off at other points if you suffering a bit, basically still aiming for 2:55 on the day??? but with a comfort zone of a few minutes.

mithril

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

The goal of racing a marathon is not to run evenly throughout, but to run to the best of your ability.
How many runners finished 3:00 to 3:01, because they cut the margins too tight?

Constant, evenly paced effort works well for me. Effort will be the same as pace on an even course and adjust as appropriate for the elevation otherwise.
My understanding is that you want to avoid spikes where you are running faster than your sustainable level since this causes the lactate in your blood to rise at a much faster rate.

By the way, 1:30:02 split for me in Berlin.

Salty Dog

Gringo78 wrote: »

Some sobering stats from the London marathon:

969 runners ran first half between 1:28:00 and 1:32:00 - only 122 or 12.6% ended up sub 3

133 runners ran 'even' splits (1:29:45 to 1:30:15) - only 10 or 7.5% ended up sub 3

250 runners ran 1:30:00 to 1:31:00 - 19 ended up sub 3 (7.6%)
204 runners ran 1:31:00 to 1:32:00 - of these 2 went on to finish sub 3

No one ran the first half slower than 1:32 and went to finsih sub 3.

239 runners ran 1:29:00 to 1:30:00 - 29 (12%) went on to finish sub 3
276 runners ran 1:28:00 to 1:29:00 - 72 (26%) went on to finish sub 3

188 runners ran 1:27 to 1:28 - 75 (40%) went on to finish sub 3
165 runners ran 1:26 to 1:27 - 99 (60%) went on to finish sub 3

Lies, damned lies & statistics.....probably statistical analysis of marathon results are useless for working out the best tactic for running sub 3 because its a target for too many people and thus many throw caution to the wind and go for it when they're not ready??

To test this theory, I also checked sub 2:48, a less 'magic' figure (but no less magic) - 195 runners ran 1:22 to 1:24 but only 39 or 15% finished sub 2:48. 267 runners ran 1:24 to 1:26 but only 1 went on to finish sub 2:48. Of the 67 runners who ran 1:23:45 to 1:24:15, only 2 went on to break 2:48.

Interesting reading. I thought I heard Foster or Cram say on a few occasions that the second half of the London course is slower than the first. Wonder is that reflected in the figures a little.

Krusty_Clown

mithril wrote: »

Constant, evenly paced effort works well for me. Effort will be the same as pace on an even course and adjust as appropriate for the elevation otherwise.
My understanding is that you want to avoid spikes where you are running faster than your sustainable level since this causes the lactate in your blood to rise at a much faster rate.

By the way, 1:30:02 split for me in Berlin.

Exactly. Even effort. But sometimes even effort means you will be running slightly faster, and sometimes it means you will be running slightly slower than your goal pace. What were your mile splits for the first 13 miles? In my first 13 miles in Berlin, I had miles ranging from from 6:41 - 7:00 (not counting the slow first mile). In Barcelona, it was 6:16 to 6:49, which is a pretty wild swing. Like I said, I may be full of crap, but what works for me is not binding myself to a specific pace, instead running comfortably and trying to achieve the overall goal rather than hitting the right number on every mile.

Peckham

A few points based on my experience yesterday that may put a bit of perspective on those stats.....

1) The second half of the race was a lot warmer than the first half
2) The second half of the course is a lot tougher than the first half (twists and turns around Isle of Dogs/Canary Wharf, Blackfriars tunnel, couple of small uphills)
3) Miles 23 to 25 are into a headwind as you come up along the river. It wasn't severe, but was noticeable.

....that said, it's comforting to know that I'm in the majority, and now that I think of it I don't remember anyone coming steaming past me as I slowed down in the latter miles, but did ssee a lot of casualties stumbling along the side of the road.