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This discussion was created from comments split from: Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen.

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Downtime

shaunhulme wrote: »

Is the ball out of the scrum once the scrum-half places his hands on the ball or is it when he plays the ball. Can he put his hands on and wait until he is ready to pass?

He must be in control of it and it must be past the hind most foot of the scrum. Having hands on it doesn't mean that it is out. He can put his hands on it but should be told to play it.

shaunhulme

In a game tonight at the scrum the opposing fly half fed from the right then moved around the no8 away from me to play the ball. I couldnt follow as i would have to pass the hind most foot and go offside. I think this is an illegal move? Is it?

Downtime

shaunhulme wrote: »

In a game tonight at the scrum the opposing fly half fed from the right then moved around the no8 away from me to play the ball. I couldnt follow as i would have to pass the hind most foot and go offside. I think this is an illegal move? Is it?

For you to go past the ball yes. He was Ok.

shaunhulme

I take it for me to go past the ball is a no go but for him its fine.... How do i counter this problem?

daveharnett

shaunhulme wrote: »

I take it for me to go past the ball is a no go but for him its fine.... How do i counter this problem?

You can't. if they have good control at the scrum, and the no8 keeps his shape, there's not a lot you can do to upset the scrumhalf.
If you like, you can go around to the open side to help your backline defend, but you must go around the long way (ie stay behind the ball), and you must stay behind the back foot (ie your number 8) when you're on the 'wrong' side.

daveharnett

shaunhulme wrote: »

I take it for me to go past the ball is a no go but for him its fine.... How do i counter this problem?

He can't go past the ball either - he must stay on 'his' side of it

Tim Robbins

shaunhulme wrote: »

I take it for me to go past the ball is a no go but for him its fine.... How do i counter this problem?

You have to keep both feet behind the ball. Put you don't have to keep your arms behind the ball.

Watch Stringer for tips on what to do.

castie

Defending Blue Scrum 5m out.
Blue Scrum Half passing to OH who is behind the try line.
kick gets charged down by Red and ball goes dead from the Red charge down.

Whats the decision here?

Blue 22? Red scrum 5?

Saw this today and Red was awarded a scrum 5. i was pretty baffled myself.

GSOIRL

If the kicker takes longer than 60seconds to take a penatly kick and the Ref blows for it what happens? Scrum, Penalty, Free Kick????

I'd like to state that this has nothing to do with Ireland game.

07734

castie wrote: »

Defending Blue Scrum 5m out.
Blue Scrum Half passing to OH who is behind the try line.
kick gets charged down by Red and ball goes dead from the Red charge down.

Whats the decision here?

Blue 22? Red scrum 5?

Saw this today and Red was awarded a scrum 5. i was pretty baffled myself.

Yep, red scrum 5 is the right decision. It was carried over the try line by blue, and went dead. How or why it went dead doesn't really matter in this case.

daveharnett

castie wrote: »

Defending Blue Scrum 5m out.
Blue Scrum Half passing to OH who is behind the try line.
kick gets charged down by Red and ball goes dead from the Red charge down.

Whats the decision here?

Blue 22? Red scrum 5?

Saw this today and Red was awarded a scrum 5. i was pretty baffled myself.

^^^what he said

daveharnett

GSOIRL wrote: »

If the kicker takes longer than 60seconds to take a penatly kick and the Ref blows for it what happens? Scrum, Penalty, Free Kick????

I'd like to state that this has nothing to do with Ireland game.

Scrum to the non-kicking team.

GSOIRL

Cheers

Gargled

07734 wrote: »

Yep, red scrum 5 is the right decision. It was carried over the try line by blue, and went dead. How or why it went dead doesn't really matter in this case.

Depends on where it was charged down.

If the charger was in goal- scrum 5

If outside- 22 drop out

crisco10

Happened today in the Connacht game. Scrum to Leinster, 15 men on the pitch for both sides. Johnny O'Conner didn't pack down in the scrum at all, he just joined the backline. Thus leaving Connacht with only a 7 man scrum and a 8 man backline. Legal/Ilegal?

Risteard

crisco10 wrote: »

Happened today in the Connacht game. Scrum to Leinster, 15 men on the pitch for both sides. Johnny O'Conner didn't pack down in the scrum at all, he just joined the backline. Thus leaving Connacht with only a 7 man scrum and a 8 man backline. Legal/Ilegal?

Illegal. But I've never seen a team not have 8 when they're not a man down and even if they are a man down they'll normally stick a back in. I suppose it was missed because it rarely, if ever happens.

Dave_The_Sheep

Two similar scenarios.

1. Say a ruck forms, outside the 22. Obviously the ball can't be kicked out on the full. So the number 7 picks and goes, but gets driven back into his own 22, and another ruck forms. From this ruck, can the ball be kicked out on the full?

2. Say a ruck forms, outside the 22. Obviously the ball can't be kicked out on the full. So the scrum half passes it back to his number 10, who gives it to the 12, who is tackled inside his own 22. A ruck forms, the side inside their own 22 retain possession. Can this ball be kicked out on the full?

Downtime

1. If he is driven back into the 22 and a ruck forms as the result of this the ball cannot be kicked out as it is part of the same movement that brought the ball into the 22

2. Yes

davidpfitz

crisco10 wrote: »

Happened today in the Connacht game. Scrum to Leinster, 15 men on the pitch for both sides. Johnny O'Conner didn't pack down in the scrum at all, he just joined the backline. Thus leaving Connacht with only a 7 man scrum and a 8 man backline. Legal/Ilegal?

Usually not legal. Was O'Conner in the back line when one of the backs was off the pitch? If so, then it would be legal. See below:

Law 20.1

Number of players: eight. A scrum must have eight players from each team. All eight players must stay bound to the scrum until it ends. Each front row must have three players in it, no more and no less. Two locks must form the second row.
Penalty: Penalty Kick

Exception: When a team is reduced to fewer than fifteen for any reason, then the number of players of each team in the scrum may be similarly reduced. Where a permitted reduction is made by one team, there is no requirement for the other team to make a similar reduction. However, a team must not have fewer than five players in the scrum.
Penalty: Penalty Kick

irishbucsfan

I'm starting to think I'm going mad so I think I'll post this up and see what you all say...

What's the official ruling on playing the ball in a ruck with your feet when you're onside, through the gate, on your feet?

daveharnett

irishbucsfan wrote: »

What's the official ruling on playing the ball in a ruck with your feet when you're onside, through the gate, on your feet?

That is almost word for word the definition of a ruck. Couldn't be more legal.

Law 16 Ruck : Definitions
Players are rucking when they are in a ruck and using their feet to try to win or
keep possession of the ball, without being guilty of foul play.

daveharnett

Law 19.8 (j) Player between touch and 5 metres.
The team not throwing in must have a player standing between the touchline and the 5-metre line on that team’s side of the line of touch when the lineout is formed. That player must stand 2 metres from the line of touch and 2 metres from the 5-metre line. Sanction: Free Kick on the 15-metre line

For those of you who don't speak IRB, that means the defending team at the lineout must put a player in the 5m channel. This is usually the defender's hooker or scrum half.

It's useful to have a player there to defend a peel/short throw in, but I don't see any reason to require a player to be there. Does anybody know why this law exists?

crisco10

davidpfitz wrote: »

Usually not legal. Was O'Conner in the back line when one of the backs was off the pitch? If so, then it would be legal. See below:

Law 20.1

Number of players: eight. A scrum must have eight players from each team. All eight players must stay bound to the scrum until it ends. Each front row must have three players in it, no more and no less. Two locks must form the second row.
Penalty: Penalty Kick

Exception: When a team is reduced to fewer than fifteen for any reason, then the number of players of each team in the scrum may be similarly reduced. Where a permitted reduction is made by one team, there is no requirement for the other team to make a similar reduction. However, a team must not have fewer than five players in the scrum.
Penalty: Penalty Kick

Thanks for that. In answer to your question, Connacht had 15 players on the pitch at the time. But in JOC's defence, Duffy was in the sin bin and had come back on about 2 mins before hand so I suspect he didn't know that Duffy was back on.

irishbucsfan

daveharnett wrote: »

That is almost word for word the definition of a ruck. Couldn't be more legal.

Yeah exactly what I thought. I was pulled up for kicking the ball out of the ruck (penalty offense supposedly), and I asked the referee what the infringement was and he couldn't answer. Happened twice in quick succession as well.

Maybe I'm not going mad then.

irishbucsfan

daveharnett wrote: »

For those of you who don't speak IRB, that means the defending team at the lineout must put a player in the 5m channel. This is usually the defender's hooker or scrum half.

It's useful to have a player there to defend a peel/short throw in, but I don't see any reason to require a player to be there. Does anybody know why this law exists?

I think it's a balancing thing. The team with possession have to have a player throwing the ball in so making the defensive team keep a player in the channel evens up the numbers in the defensive line, making more space.

Don't see any other reason the law would be there.

davidpfitz

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yeah exactly what I thought. I was pulled up for kicking the ball out of the ruck (penalty offense supposedly), and I asked the referee what the infringement was and he couldn't answer. Happened twice in quick succession as well.

Maybe I'm not going mad then.

DEFINITION
A ruck is a phase of play where one or more players from each team, who are on their feet, in physical contact, close around the ball on the ground. Open play has ended.

Rucking. Players are rucking when they are in a ruck and using their feet to try to win or keep possession of the ball, without being guilty of foul play.

16.1(b)
How can a ruck form.
Players are on their feet. At least one player must be in physical contact with an opponent. The ball is on the ground.

16.2(b) A player joining a ruck must bind onto the ruck with at least one arm around the body of a team-mate, using the whole arm.

My Guess?
There's nothing wrong with kicking the ball out of a ruck as long as you are legally bound to the ruck. So, is it possible you were pinged for not being correctly bound to the ruck? Basically, if you are standing around near the ruck, and put boot to ball it's a penalty.

It's mighty hard to kick the ball out of a ruck legally given the amount of bodies obstructing your swinging leg and also the ball's exit path, but it can be done.

dub_skav

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Yeah exactly what I thought. I was pulled up for kicking the ball out of the ruck (penalty offense supposedly), and I asked the referee what the infringement was and he couldn't answer. Happened twice in quick succession as well.

Maybe I'm not going mad then.

i've been penalised for the same thing. By the looks of the law written here the problem is that you were not trying to keep or win possession, you were trying to kick the ball away

tolosenc

After a line out, refs raise an arm. What's that about, I've never quite got it, and once or twice thought we had a penalty coming...

Gargled

Toulousain wrote: »

After a line out, refs raise an arm. What's that about, I've never quite got it, and once or twice thought we had a penalty coming...

The ref keeps his arm up as long as the lineout is still "on" ie not over. The backs must stay the 10m back. Usually when a maul forms from the lineout.

It's over when it moves out of the 15, in the 5 or when the hindmost foot crosses the line of touch

daveharnett

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I think it's a balancing thing. The team with possession have to have a player throwing the ball in so making the defensive team keep a player in the channel evens up the numbers in the defensive line, making more space.

Don't see any other reason the law would be there.

Other refs i've put this to have had the same thought. Do you actually think that teams would move that man if they were allowed to? It would make the 5m channel awfully tempting to attackers.

I think most teams would still prefer to drop a backrow from the tail of the lineout into 9/10 or 10/12 channel.