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Irish language?

dr gonzo

(mods please move if this shouldnt be here)

A mate(A boards moderator in fact) and i agree to disagree about the Irish language, he thinks its dead and we should move on which ill admit, irritates me a little because i think its something important to hang on to.

I fully understand that its not widely spoken and therefore all the irish usage in our society is not for better comprehension but merely cultural. On top of that its rich of me to say its important when I dont even speak it but thats why i want to get the general consensus.

Is it worth keeping or should we just be rid of it?

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Wibbs

owenc wrote: »

erm they dont speak scottish in scotland much either but they werent invaded.. they still speak it in some western areas. does that tae mean tay as in tay get?

Well "scottish" is Irish Gaelic brought there by the Irish. Before they would have spoken a variety of pictish languages. It was an invasion by the Irish too, of a cultural and religious type. It kicked off with raiding parties and colonisation. Then came the Irish monks who converted local kings and the language of commerce and learning rapidly became Irish and the old language died out. Sound familiar?....

The very name Scotland has an Irish origin. The Irish were known as Scoti in classical times. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoti

dlofnep

Wibbs wrote: »

And fair play and genuine kudos to you. Too many pay lip service, but youre up against a lot of weak hypocrisy too. Loads claim sure tis only great and part of us and then cant speak a word of it nor attempt to learn. Its a concept to support not an actual language.

Oh I 100% agree with you. There are alot of people paying lip service to the language. It's not a huge chore to learn it. I spend 2 or 3 hours a week, in a pub, drinking a few pints - and taking up the language as I hear it and use it. There's no pressure, and it's fun. It's not that it's hard to learn, it's just that you have to be persistant and stick with it.

I would say those who are involved with the language are extremely passionate and go out of their way to promote it - which is probably the reason why it even exists to this day.

ride-the-spiral

I love my culture and I like my language, I however aren't very good at it and in 5th year am deciding to Ordinary Level Irish as it's not going to count for my points and that's my priority at the moment. However, when I have left school and have more time I will most likely want to learn the language.

I'm all for loving your culture and language, but when you tell people that they have to like our culture and have to learn our language, this is Elitism. If somebody does not like Irish culture that's their choice, I'm not going to force them to learn a language that they have no interest in and one that the culture of it makes them feel like foreigners in their own home.

Course of action I say is to change the way it is taught across the board, and make it optional after the Junior Cert. I can't really see how this isn't a compromise, those who don't want to learn it don't have to and those that want to preserve it can still do so. Your doing no justice by breeding hatred through forcing people.

unreggd

AnonoBoy wrote: »

It's fierce handy for talking about foreigners without them knowing what we're saying.

I use it to talk about Irish people

Irish only has such a bad reputation because of our fxcked up education system

IMO, when you go into secondary you should spend the Junior Cert years reinforcing your basic knowledge of certain subjects, like maths, English [grammar, spelling, reading etc] and spoken Irish

If you don't speak the language, you need to learn it as a foreign language. Its SO obvious, but unfortunately in this country common sense rarely prevails

Also, I HATE when people say "it's shit, its a dead language, useless" then walk around town on Paddys Day sayin how proud they are to be Irish. Bahhh!
[/rant]

Iwasfrozen

unreggd wrote: »

I use it to talk about Irish people

People who do things like that are jerks.

unreggd wrote: »

Irish only has such a bad reputation because of our fxcked up education system

Or, it has a bad reputation because it's useless.

unreggd wrote: »

IMO, when you go into secondary you should spend the Junior Cert years reinforcing your basic knowledge of certain subjects, like maths, English [grammar, spelling, reading etc] and spoken Irish

So are you in the opinion that one should be forced to learn Irish ?

unreggd wrote: »

If you don't speak the language, you need to learn it as a foreign language. Its SO obvious, but unfortunately in this country common sense rarely prevails

Your right common sense doesn't seem to prevail, why do I need to learn Irish again ?

unreggd wrote: »

Also, I HATE when people say "it's shit, its a dead language, useless" then walk around town on Paddys Day sayin how proud they are to be Irish. Bahhh!
[/rant]

Why must one speak the language of people that used to live in a country in order to be proud of their country ?

By your logic patriotic Americans should speak the language of the Native American tribes who where wiped out.

owenc

Wibbs wrote: »

Well "scottish" is Irish Gaelic brought there by the Irish. Before they would have spoken a variety of pictish languages. It was an invasion by the Irish too, of a cultural and religious type. It kicked off with raiding parties and colonisation. Then came the Irish monks who converted local kings and the language of commerce and learning rapidly became Irish and the old language died out. Sound familiar?....

The very name Scotland has an Irish origin. The Irish were known as Scoti in classical times. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoti

yea and the picts were english? the majority of people in scotland would be closer to picts wouldnt they considering its only a small area of scotland.. i knew some thing was irish in scotland..

RayM

Outside of a few tiny Gaeltacht areas, it is effectively a dead language, albeit artificially kept alive via force-feeding. I seriously resent the fact that Irish was compulsory in school - not because I didn't want to learn it, but because (unlike in German or French classes) I was surrounded by others who didn't/couldn't. Kids who actually want to learn Irish (yes, they do exist) would undoubtedly benefit from it being made optional in second level (at least for the Leaving Cert).

The long-term future of the language would be better served by having a smaller number of people speaking it fluently, as opposed to a majority who can literally only speak "an cúpla focal".

Míshásta

Constantly discussing the Irish language through the medium of English is "useless and nothing more then a vestigial throwback to times we've evolved past"

BORING!

agus sin a bhfuil de.

Iwasfrozen

Míshásta wrote: »

Constantly discussing the Irish language through the medium of English is "useless and nothing more then a vestigial throwback to times we've evolved past"

BORING!

agus sin a bhfuil de.

We have a place for people like you.

Greyfox

Míshásta wrote: »

Constantly discussing the Irish language through the medium of English is "useless and nothing more then a vestigial throwback to times we've evolved past"

How is it useless when only a small percentage of the Irish population can speak Irish fluently? The fact of the matter is learning Irish has been a waste of time for the majority of people in this country, an this is all down to the fact that it has been badly taught in most schools!

I think Irish should be optional at leaving cert, but we should also make Irish an easy subject so that a lot more students will want to do it

SandStone

Dionysus wrote: »

Having Irish on all the signs is one of the most refreshing and nicest things about living in modern Ireland.

Or one of the most irritating things. It's as if we need to pretend, either to ourselves or to foreigners, that Irish is our de facto first language. I've got no problem with people being enthusiastic about the Irish language, but its official use as if it's a necessity for communication infuriates me.

SandStone

owenc wrote: »

well people should learn it if they want to but they shouldnt be going around and putting irish on all the signs and everything as i dont have half a clue what its saying and the majority of other people dont i know only a few people which can speak it. it could be kept for like a culture thing to know but to be honest its not really usefull i mean this is the only place were its spoken... and even here rarely anyone knows it.

I'd recommend devoting as much time as possible to brushing up your English in your case anyway.

unreggd

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I am full of shit

Agree 100%

I never said you have to be forced to learn it.

Its compulsory now, so I was merely suggesting ways to make people enjoy it more, before we just get rid of it all together
Most people don't want/need secondary-level maths, but good look gettin rid of that

And my comment about using Irish to talk about Irish people was clearly sarcasm.

Get a grip

m@cc@

Millie Whispering Huntsman wrote: »

i might be wrong, but i've never heard of any other case where a country was invaded and the national language wiped out of almost the entire population....

Close your eyes and put your finger on anywhere in the Americas. And then to a lesser extent in Africa.

grenache

Our government should definitely take a leaf out of the Welsh approach to promoting their language. Instead of forcing it on people and putting emphasis on written grammar, place importance on the spoken word and create more bi-lingual schools. Currently 25% of Welsh people can speak their language fluently. If they can do it there, we can do it here too with Irish.

MIN2511

As a foreigner living in Ireland; i wish more people speak Irish. The only language i speak is English, if i have a child in Ireland he/she will definitely study at an all Irish school.

johngalway

When a foreigner comes to you and tells you things about your own country that you don't know, things that you should know, then the people saying it's a dead language will understand how important it is. It's part of who we are.

arse..biscuits

I've spent the last few years learning Irish, I can speak it with ease now but I still struggle at writing it. I have my first child arriving in the next week or so and I will be speaking only Irish to him/her.

moonpurple

if you think it is dead then why are schools full of youngsters called dara rory fionn oisin fiona niamh fiachara sean ciaran liam etc etc agus etc

bain teatneamh as Baby

you may have met an irish language teacher who was dead...sin sceal eile

neil_hosey

grenache wrote: »

Our government should definitely take a leaf out of the Welsh approach to promoting their language. Instead of forcing it on people and putting emphasis on written grammar, place importance on the spoken word and create more bi-lingual schools. Currently 25% of Welsh people can speak their language fluently. If they can do it there, we can do it here too with Irish.

the difference with welsh was that it never really receeded into small pockets of native speakers like ireland. There was always a strong backbone of speakers.

But yes, more focus should be on spoken irish, day to day communication, to bring it into every day life

Krusader

In English speaking national schools, we need to teach at least 2 more subjects through Irish, like PE, drama, history, geography

bonerm

The Irish language is like knowing the directions to Temple Bar, i.e. you're never going to use it but it's nice to know at the same time in case a foriegner asks.

neil_hosey

bonerm wrote: »

The Irish language is like knowing the directions to Temple Bar, i.e. you're never going to use it but it's nice to know at the same time in case a foriegner asks.

what a load of crap..

ye thats a great attitude..:rolleyes:

kumate_champ07

Millie Whispering Huntsman wrote: »

i might be wrong, but i've never heard of any other case where a country was invaded and the national language wiped out of almost the entire population....

USA*, Canada*, Australia*, Jamaica, Hawaii, Haiti, Brazil
to name a few!

*increased population of non natives but native language is spoken less by newest generations of original inhabitants

Scotland also has a language thats very like Irish, I can understand it a bit

Dont be at yourself

I really, really wish I spoke Irish. Unfortunately, apathy as a kid combined with a poor curriculum and disinterested teachers made me detest the language right the way through school.

However, when you travel do different countries and meet people with their own language, tied so much to their culture, it makes you feel a little incomplete. A mate of mine from Wales speaks Welsh as his mother tongue, and I think that's fantastic.

People say that Irish has no relevance on modern Irish culture. That's bollocks. The Irish language has had a huge impact on how we relate to each other. It's a colourful language, full of metaphor and turns of phrase - and that's carried on down to the way we interact today. We have "the gift of the gab". Look at the disproportionate amount of poets and writers we have produced. Hiberno-English, influenced hugely by Irish is far removed from British English. We might be using the same words, but we communicate and express ourselves in a markedly different way - and that's down to Irish.

I hope the language not only survives, but thrives in the future. I hope I'll have the opportunity to send my kids to a gaelscoil, and hope they take pride in what is still a huge part of our national identity.

syklops

Millie Whispering Huntsman wrote: »

i think it should be kept and the government should fund more programmes that would encourage people to speak it more often.

The government already spends vast sums of money trying to get people to speak it and have been doing so for many years now. It hasn't worked yet. You think throwing more money at the problem will solve it. Do you work for the HSE?

Millie Whispering Huntsman wrote: »

i might be wrong, but i've never heard of any other case where a country was invaded and the national language wiped out of almost the entire population....

You have never heard of that? Do you live under a rock? Can you explain to me why they speak french in Haiti? Why do they speak English in Australia?

[Deleted User]

Crosáidí wrote: »

In English speaking national schools, we need to teach at least 2 more subjects through Irish, like PE, drama, history, geography

That would be a good step in the right direction, as in giving the language a purpose. Without such a reason, it just becomes a pointless* school subject.

*as it has no point outside that classroom.

Wibbs

moonpurple wrote:

if you think it is dead then why are schools full of youngsters called dara rory fionn oisin fiona niamh fiachara sean ciaran liam etc etc agus etc

Middle class lip service for the most part.

johngalway wrote: »

When a foreigner comes to you and tells you things about your own country that you don't know, things that you should know, then the people saying it's a dead language will understand how important it is. It's part of who we are.

Eh sounds grand and emotive but actually means little enough. There are a lot of things that have changed over time in any culture. The bits that survive have a use and reason to survive. If a language is one of those things then great, but its not as tied into a feeling of belonging as many seem to think. Certainly not in a case like Irish. If it was we wouldnt be having this conversation on a regular basis.

NekkidBibleMan wrote: »

People say that Irish has no relevance on modern Irish culture. That's bollocks. The Irish language has had a huge impact on how we relate to each other. It's a colourful language, full of metaphor and turns of phrase - and that's carried on down to the way we interact today. We have "the gift of the gab". Look at the disproportionate amount of poets and writers we have produced. Hiberno-English, influenced hugely by Irish is far removed from British English. We might be using the same words, but we communicate and express ourselves in a markedly different way - and that's down to Irish.

I would agree, but look at any language and you will find influences from earlier or co existing languages. French, Spanish, Italian and yes Irish too(and English) were massively influenced by Latin or sprung from it directly. That's great and it is interesting to trace where such influences lie, but its more academic than useful. Look at the vast majority of the internationally known Irish writers in english. Who were Irish speakers as well? Very very very few. Actually I can't think of one that was. It didnt seem to hinder them.

neil_hosey

Wibbs wrote: »

Middle class lip service for the most part.
Eh sounds grand and emotive but actually means little enough. There are a lot of things that have changed over time in any culture. The bits that survive have a use and reason to survive. If a language is one of those things then great, but its not as tied into a feeling of belonging as many seem to think. Certainly not in a case like Irish. If it was we wouldnt be having this conversation on a regular basis.

I would agree, but look at any language and you will find influences from earlier or co existing languages. French, Spanish, Italian and yes Irish too(and English) were massively influenced by Latin or sprung from it directly. That's great and it is interesting to trace where such influences lie, but its more academic than useful. Look at the vast majority of the internationally known Irish writers in english. Who were Irish speakers as well? Very very very few. Actually I can't think of one that was. It didnt seem to hinder them.

Middle class lip service?? no i think you will find that there are loads of gaelscoilleanna around the country, and loads in dublin, in many working class AND middle class areas..

Places like clondalkin, finglas, ballyfermot all have gaelscoileanna.

Theres about 50000 students in ireland right now in around 400 all irish speaking schools..

lip service???? :rolleyes:

Irish didnt spring from latin btw.. there are words in every language that can be found in many other languages including irish.

Krusader

neil_hosey wrote: »

Middle class lip service?? no i think you will find that there are loads of gaelscoilleanna around the country, and loads in dublin, in many working class AND middle class areas..

Places like clondalkin, finglas, ballyfermot all have gaelscoileanna.

Theres about 50000 students in ireland right now in around 400 all irish speaking schools..

lip service???? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Irish didnt spring from latin btw.. there are words in every language that can be found in many other languages including irish.

Don't forget Ballymun, Cabra, Blanch

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