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Trade Unions or Government

[Deleted User]

Which are you angrier at After Hours?

While I'm very pissed at the government, I'm not forgetting that the world is in a recession nd a small open economy with a property bubble is gonna get destroyed. Government didn't create the bubble, neither did banks, we did. I don't blame the banks for the stupid college loans I took out cause I'm fit to admit I was the idiot. If you a sign a mortgage, you're responsible. Stop blaming everyone around you for your selfinflicted negative equity.

The Trade Unions on the other hand should have every one of their offices firebombed and they're leaders hung. How many thousands of the unemployed would happily take a job in the passport office like.. My pay has dropped but I'm not being a bitch about it cause I can see the bigger picture..

Maybe i'm on my own on hating the Unions more?

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DrumSteve

needs more poll...

elgriff

Totally agree in relation to the unions

ibarelycare

Unions. Trade unions should be made obsolete, they're not needed in this day and age and they're trying to hold the country to ransom.

Cookie_Monster

ibarelycare wrote: »

Unions. Trade unions should be made obsolete, they're not needed in this day and age and they're trying to hold the country to ransom.

DrumSteve

i do believe that trade unions are necessary but they need to be reformed so they do not abuse their position. Unions have done a lot of very good work on behalf of workers and there is no reason they can not continue to do so provided the leadership re-evaluate their priorities. I think a lot of people here have short memories.

Fulton Crown

Unions are the same the world over...get real...deal with it.

They will target the most vulnerable - like the Passport Office Gimps or the freekin Aer Lingus counter staff recently (Remember ?).

Or like the overpaid wasters in ESB until some competition was introduced.

The Dell workers paid with their jobs for the incompetence of the regulatory system and the greed of the bankers...why cant the public servants take a little bit of pain ?

As every one knows the public service is RIFE with waste and incompetence not to mention poor work practices and avoidence of responsibility.

yes..... ?

biko

The government.

Poll OP?

alias141282

I see why people are giving out about unions but have people considering the following:

If workers didn't form unions then workers would be seriously exploited.
Society is becoming more and more unequal and people are seeing their standard of living fall.
Despite all the rhetoric from Government their economic strategy is essentially to engage in a race to the bottom. Where does this end? Is it sustainable? Even if we drastically cut wages, social welfare, minimum wage, and employment conditions would this create a significant increase in employment? More likely it will just make people a great deal poorer. People who can find work have to work much harder, for longer (with two people working) to afford the same comforts as their parents, like running a car, owning a home etc.
The money that is being saved from pay cuts and welfare cuts, taxes, etc is just going into a black hole that is anglo Irish bank. Is this fair? Is it even sane policy?
Maybe it makes to try and hold the line against a race to the bottom and work for alternatives?

[Deleted User]

DrumSteve wrote: »

needs more poll...

Edit: Magnus, could you add poll? On my phone here nd it's not gonna work..

biko

Poll added.

[Deleted User]

Im angry at everyone who decides we need another thread about unions/govt and creates yet another such thread! :mad::mad:

markpb

alias141282 wrote: »

[*]Despite all the rhetoric from Government their economic strategy is essentially to engage in a race to the bottom.

Based on what? During a recession, the price of things fall. Wages fall too. That's not a race to the bottom - it's an attempt to recover some form of competitiveness so we can make stuff, sell it abroad and generate money/jobs.

Handsome Bob

The Government, I'm one of the few who thought they were ****ing up this country even before the recession hit.

alias141282

markpb wrote: »

Based on what? During a recession, the price of things fall. Wages fall too. That's not a race to the bottom - it's an attempt to recover some form of competitiveness so we can make stuff, sell it abroad and generate money/jobs.

We have already seen deflation average around 5% in Ireland since the recession hit with inflation in France and Germany running at around 1-2%. That is a significant increase in competitiveness. Has it created a huge amount of jobs? You can cut wages as much as you like - it wouldn't solve our unemployment problem because people who are earning money are saving it. Consumer confidence has collapsed and will not return any time soon. People are immersed in debt and negative equity.

We can't compete with India, China, Eastern Europe to produce and sell things, no matter how much we cut wages there will always be someone willing to work for less. (It makes sense to produce medical devices and software and things like that in Ireland for the Ireland brand and skills but these industries don't employ huge amounts of people). In other words the economic model the Govt. has being pursuing over the past 20 years has failed utterly and will not provide employment for the current young generation. They will have to emigrate. Those who stay will see their taxes go up and their pay and conditions go down if they can find work. The money the Govt takes in from taxes and paycuts will go into Anglo Irish.

Now, the only hope for the country is if for people to get organised and work to create a decent sustainable society. Therefore in blaming unions for our current woes you are way off target. I thought this Fintan O'Toole article summed it up well: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/0323/1224266873401.html

brianthebard

Wow, what a fair and balanced first post there Ads. Course the fact is that the banks and Government (local and national) actually did foster and push a bubble in this country, but don't let that get in the way of your drivel!

alias141282

brianthebard wrote: »

Wow, what a fair and balanced first post there Ads. Course the fact is that the banks and Government (local and national) actually did foster and push a bubble in this country, but don't let that get in the way of your drivel!

+1

The banks, Government, and media blanantly and recklessly fed the bubble.

Fuhrer

Dont European Labour laws make Unions mostly obsolete anyway.

In terms of stopping workers from being exploited I mean.

aoboa

Fuhrer wrote: »

Dont European Labour laws make Unions mostly obsolete anyway.

In terms of stopping workers from being exploited I mean.

Labour Court rulings aren't binding, so no.

dvpower

alias141282 wrote: »

I see why people are giving out about unions but have people considering the following:

If workers didn't form unions then workers would be seriously exploited.
I'm sure there are bad employers out there who would exploit workers, but its the exception, not the rule. Most workers these days are able to look out for their own interests (and have chosen not to join unions).
Society is becoming more and more unequal and people are seeing their standard of living fall.
Unions aren't interested in equality. They're primarily interested in the pay and conditions of their own members. This is often (as we can see in the passports office) at the expense of ordinary people.
Despite all the rhetoric from Government their economic strategy is essentially to engage in a race to the bottom. Where does this end? Is it sustainable? Even if we drastically cut wages, social welfare, minimum wage, and employment conditions would this create a significant increase in employment? More likely it will just make people a great deal poorer. People who can find work have to work much harder, for longer (with two people working) to afford the same comforts as their parents, like running a car, owning a home etc.
We operate in a small, open economy. If an Irish widget company is less competitive than a Latvian widget company, it will eventually go out of business. That's reality, not a race to the botton. Unions don't do reality - they operate in the the short term interests of their members
The money that is being saved from pay cuts and welfare cuts, taxes, etc is just going into a black hole that is anglo Irish bank. Is this fair? Is it even sane policy?
Nothing to do with unions
Maybe it makes to try and hold the line against a race to the bottom and work for alternatives?
Maybe we should embrace reality. If we want to maintain our standards, we need to be more competitive. For the PS unions, the offer of no further cuts for cooperation on PS transformation is on the agenda. That's the alternative; so far they've chosen not to work for alternatives.

[Deleted User]

brianthebard wrote: »

Wow, what a fair and balanced first post there Ads. Course the fact is that the banks and Government (local and national) actually did foster and push a bubble in this country, but don't let that get in the way of your drivel!

Reread the opening post, did I say I like the government? No.
I said I hate trade unions more.
And alias, I never said trade unions got us into this mess, I just said I hate them.

Jesus fuking Christ.

brianthebard

Deleted User wrote: »

Reread the opening post, did I say I like the government? No.

You also absolved them of any blame for the present economic crisis, while calling for the death of all trade unionists, for which no reason was given. So you think that was fair and balanced do you?

speedboatchase

brianthebard wrote: »

Wow, what a fair and balanced first post there Ads. Course the fact is that the banks and Government (local and national) actually did foster and push a bubble in this country, but don't let that get in the way of your drivel!

You're a moderator?

biko

Deleted User wrote: »

The Trade Unions on the other hand should have every one of their offices firebombed and they're leaders hung.

Please do not encourage violence against anyone. It's not nice.

[Deleted User]

brianthebard wrote: »

You also absolved them of any blame for the present economic crisis, while calling for the death of all trade unionists, for which no reason was given. So you think that was fair and balanced do you?

I'm refusing to get drawn into this. I hate both, I just thing the unions are the scummier of the two.

brianthebard

speedboatchase wrote: »

You're a moderator?

So?

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm refusing to get drawn into this. I hate both, I just thing the unions are the scummier of the two.

Drawn into this? You started this!

Mal-Adjusted

change the record, OP. last I heard, there's a thread for ranting

[Deleted User]

brianthebard wrote: »

So?

Drawn into this? You started this!

I meant I refuse to get drawn into a bitch fight.

alias141282

dvpower wrote: »

I'm sure there are bad employers out there who would exploit workers, but its the exception, not the rule. Most workers these days are able to look out for their own interests (and have chosen not to join unions).

People have won a fair bit of protection from exploitation through activism but under the a free market system those who can get the most out of their workers for the least amount of money are going to win out. Thats why people have to join together - to protect some decent standard of living for themselves.

dvpower wrote: »

Unions aren't interested in equality. They're primarily interested in the pay and conditions of their own members. This is often (as we can see in the passports office) at the expense of ordinary people. ).

Of course they are interested in pay and conditions for their own members. Thats what they do. And by negotiating decent pay and conditions they are holding the line against a blatant race to the bottom for everyone, for those in a union and those who are not. Is that not a decent and honourable thing to do?

dvpower wrote: »

Maybe we should embrace reality. If we want to maintain our standards, we need to be more competitive. For the PS unions, the offer of no further cuts for cooperation on PS transformation is on the agenda. That's the alternative; so far they've chosen not to work for alternatives.

Your reality is that there is no society and that we are all for sale and should just take what we can get. If that means someone with a degree working in call centre for €3 euro an hour so be it. Thats all they are worth. The private market has totally failed and the state is bailing it out massively. And here you are still preaching about the iron laws of the free market and accepting "reality" which just means misery and hardship for almost everyone.

BongoJuice

six of one half a dozen of the other etc etc

brianthebard

Deleted User wrote: »

I meant I refuse to get drawn into a bitch fight.

Did you make this thread and refer to trade unionists as scum for some alternative reason to a bitch fight?