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Child Item

The Statistics of Penis Wielding Oppressors

The Corinthian

This article was in the Irish Times today, based upon this CSO report.

What struck me was that issues such men being nearly twice as likely to leave school early as women were barely touched on, and really only to highlight the usual topic of how women earn less than men, even though the report readily admits that "In interpreting [comparative incomes], it should be borne in mind that no account has been taken of the number of hours being worked or of the occupations being performed by men and women".

Indeed, if you actually look at the figures men work on average 23% longer hours than women, and when you look at age as a factor, the hours of both sexes drops after age 40, but this is particularly pronounced in women - 44.8% drop (if single) up to 72.1% drop (if married).

Given pay scales tend to increase with age, had anyone thought of seeing if this might affect the figures somewhat? There's a thought.

Other trends that were completely ignored, such as men being far more likely to be either unemployed or even long term unemployed, were ignored. Or that the overpaid men are presumably the only breadwinners for the 531,800 Irish households where a woman is "looking after home/family", as opposed to the 6,700 where a man is "looking after home/family".

(Here's another fun statistic: Women make up 91.2% of loan parents, by age of the youngest child, yet are also 97.9% of the recipients of one-parent family payments, which seemingly points to men being several times less likely to be recipients of one-parent family payments when they are single parents.)

Is it just me or are other men kind of fed up that these reports are continually being trotted out with simplistic "Women are Paid Less Than Men" mantras, with the assumption that it is down to discrimination or oppression when it would appear that this has not been the case for a very long time? Or for that matter that statistics that point to men being disadvantaged in society are simply ignored or trivialized?

You see these statistics and claims being trotted out by groups every day, but why does no one seem to want to question their validity?

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Nevyn

That always boggles me, women have babies, couples have babies, fathers have babies.
People having babies is something we need to keep happening and we need for smart people to have babies so that the bulk of the next generations are not children who
have the low expectations which taconnol pointed out.

People will have babies and we need to take that into allowances and not be penalising parents and make the 'burden' of having children more equal so that a man going for a job is also looked at as a potential parent, who will be on leave, who will need time off work, who will need time and half days to take care of child care issues, who will maybe take a break in his job/career after the child is born.

Nevyn

CDfm wrote: »

A brave man.

No an old sexist who had a formal complaint lodged again him and then took early retirement.

CDfm wrote: »

I dont disagree on the stereotype but you seem to be taking this one personally. It is a stereoype that the woman stays at home and skills can be acquired.

You have to have the will and the want to acquire those skills and a lot of men don't, they see them as the default for the woman of the house to do,
and a lot of women don't teach thier sons.

CDfm wrote: »

It can be done. Hey I would have stayed home quite happily:D

Again if there is the will to do so.

CDfm wrote: »

You are talking about your own situation.

So are you.

CDfm wrote: »

Personnally speaking I think a lot of the resorses that are budgeted for women in public expenditure should be redirected towards childcare. Other countries do it.

Which ones? for smear test? breast screening? Which resources do you see as being directly budgeted for women only in the public expenditure?
The Maternity hospitals?

CDfm

Thaedydal wrote: »

, esp when it became apparent that there were no services for male rape and sexual assault victims they expanded their remit, resources and services to men rather then taking what some would consider to be the
'real feminist' line and say all men are rapists and we can't have someone with a penis near a rape survivour :rolleyes:
nevermind in the support groups.

I am cynical and think its a fund raising scam.

PopUp wrote: »

Ah this is the whole GP thing again?

Well if we actually have a look at it I don't think this is as big a problem as people think. There are no hard facts that I can find, it's just recently become a talking point and I think it needs some real research. But here are some thoughts that the issue is probably more complicated than just 'women have babies so why bother training them?'.

................................................................................................................

Not to sound jingoistic but if we are worried about not having enough doctors we need to a) pressure the medical board to recommend we take higher numbers of students - every year hundreds of very intelligent people are turned away and remember it's in doctors interests to recommend low numbers of students to keep the profession prestigious, well paid, and in demand. or b) stop medical schools from taking so many foreign students - yes they pay well for the education but then they go home to their own country.

Thats not my point BTW.

Doctors are so expensive to train that they should have some sort of national service for doctors after they qualify to pay the cost.

I am being straight -there is an economic cost if you train someone and they dont do that profession. A woman may not just take 6 years off but will work part time and not make house calls etc. So at one level your return on your training dollar is more from men then from women.

Now its fine for a country like Ireland to have those ideals but if its competitor nations for jobs and industry dont bear the same costs then we as an economy are at a disadvantage.

I dont know how it could be achieved but the current system does seem to make things very convenient.

Nevyn

CDfm wrote: »

I am cynical and think its a fund raising scam.

You think opening up the only dedicated rape crises centers we have in the country (There is more then just the Dublin one) to men who have suffered sexual assault and rape is a scam?

That is a very sick and sad way of thinking tbh.

Do you think men would be better off with their own rape crises centers?

CDfm

Thaedydal wrote: »

No an old sexist who had a formal complaint lodged again him and then took early retirement.

he still was brave with you in the class

You have to have the will and the want to acquire those skills and a lot of men don't, they see them as the default for the woman of the house to do,and a lot of women don't teach thier sons.

and a lot of women dont want their partners doing so either.

Which ones? for smear test? breast screening? Which resources do you see as being directly budgeted for women only in the public expenditure?
The Maternity hospitals?

Tut tut.this is the Gentlemans Club and should I suppose reflect a male point of you. Do you have a suggestion to improve mens rights??

Nevyn

So what about a man who choose to become a dr at the age of 40 and starts the process and training, should be told no, sorry you won't do enough 'time' so you can't be a dr?

So the tax money that a female dr earns and pays which would be the higher rate of tax doesn't count as a contribution? or the jobs and tax payed by the people her or her collective practice hires?

CDfm

Thaedydal wrote: »

You think opening up the only dedicated rape crises centers we have in the country (There is more then just the Dublin one) to men who have suffered sexual assault and rape is a scam?

That is a very sick and sad way of thinking tbh.

Do you think men would be better off with their own rape crises centers?

I think the money is far better spent on Mens Groups and that it is taking funding away from such groups and spending it on a group that in the past was openly hostile to men and was known to be so. So yes I do believe that a less gender based organisation would be better for guys.

Nevyn

CDfm wrote: »

he still was brave with you in the class

Yes it was just wonderful for him to say that to me in front of my class who were all male in first year at the start of the first term.

CDfm wrote: »

and a lot of women dont want their partners doing so either.

Why?
Because it's non traditional? Surely if their partners had and showed the level of compentacy required then him staying at home become more of a 'real' choice.

CDfm wrote: »

Tut tut.this is the Gentlemans Club and should I suppose reflect a male point of you. Do you have a suggestion to improve mens rights??

Avoidance, you stated that more of the public expenditure which is spent on women should go into childcare to give fathers/parent more options.
Please state which moneys you consider that to be.

Nevyn

CDfm wrote: »

I think the money is far better spent on Mens Groups and that it is taking funding away from such groups and spending it on a group that in the past was openly hostile to men and was known to be so. So yes I do believe that a less gender based organisation would be better for guys.

You really think that the money spent on the care and treatment of all rape victims regardless of gender should be split to provide a gendered service with while be lesser and have less resources?

The rape crises center has been hostile against rapists and rape culture and rightly so and more men should also be that way.

PopUp

Thaedydal wrote: »

People having babies is something we need to keep happening and we need for smart people to have babies so that the bulk of the next generations are not children who
have the low expectations which taconnol pointed out.

People will have babies and we need to take that into allowances and not be penalising parents and make the 'burden' of having children more equal so that a man going for a job is also looked at as a potential parent, who will be on leave, who will need time off work, who will need time and half days to take care of child care issues, who will maybe take a break in his job/career after the child is born.

Yep exactly and women doctors having babies is to be honest well needed. I don't want to sound all Daily Mail and social engineering but to be honest at the moment the better educated and wealthier you are (male and female) the less kids you have. Now that's not what we want as a society right? Not that the children of school leavers aren't very important and of course just as capable of great things. But it is a problem when a teenager who drops out of school is raising more children than a doctor.

When you look at improvements in health care - we are all living longer but it costs money to sustain us in old age. Our birth rate in Ireland has always been high but it is below replacement level now which is setting us up for major demographic problems. Now happily our birth and marriage rates are rising (and recent evidence suggests that when developed societies get really rich the birth rate - which declines when countries get more educated and industrialised - goes back up slightly link is subscription only but highly worth reading if you're into this sort of thing). But still it is in the best interests of society and the economy for us to have more babies than we are having.

Some work cultures consider the ideal employee to be a healthy 25 year old single man with no health problems, family, hobbies, or social life. But nobody is really like that. 25 year old men aren't like that! But we put people in the rat race and they go along with it.

Things are changing though. Career breaks and going travelling and family-friendly hours are becoming more and more common. But who knows what impact the recession will have on such things.

This discussion has really made me realise how much class and wealth are tied up with the gender thing as well. Very different expectations - you can't really untangle them.

Back to doctors:

Doctors are so expensive to train that they should have some sort of national service for doctors after they qualify to pay the cost.

Hmm I could get on board with that.

The present argument of course is that they do pay back the cost of their training and then some very quickly through taxes.

I could also get on board with taxes being higher for these high earners.

I just think it's pointless to focus on a couple of maternity leaves and ignore all the people who leave - sometimes immediately after receiving their free education - to go abroad.

So anyway I went looking for some of those facts - in the US women doctors work 20% fewer hours. But there are aspects to balance this out:

On the plus side, women are willing to take on lower-paying specialties that male doctors are moving away from, such as primary care, pediatrics, and obstetrics. Since 1996 there has been a 40% jump in the number of women choosing primary care, offsetting the 16% decline in men entering the field.
A lighter workload also has its advantages. "Lots of studies show that doctors who work fewer hours have less burnout," says Dr. Joseph Flaherty, dean of University of Illinois College of Medicine. "There is a strong association between long hours and medical errors."
The issue of shorter work weeks may in fact be as much generational as gender-based. Newly minted male doctors are also rejecting the heroic 80-hour weeks put in by physicians of yesteryear. Ultimately, medicine will have to accommodate the lifestyle demands of a younger generation if it is to address the physician shortage, says Dr. Nancy Oriol, dean of students for Harvard Medical School. "If there is a problem with retention, it might serve us well to investigate details of the career paths themselves."

And consider this quote from a top female doctor in the UK:

A top female doctor has warned the medical profession's influence could be damaged by the number of women choosing to be medics. Professor Carol Black, president of the Royal College of Physicians, said that feminising medicine would cause the profession to lose its prestige and 'power'.
She said she believed female-dominated professions such as teaching no longer saw themselves as "powerful".
She added: "We are feminising medicine. It has been a profession dominated by white males. What are we going to have to do to ensure it retains its influence?
"Years ago, teaching was a male-dominated profession - and look what happened to teaching. I don't think they feel they are a powerful profession any more. Look at nursing, too."

I think what's interesting here isn't that she's a woman but that's she's a top doctor. Like I was saying, they aren't interested in what's best for society but in keeping their profession prestigious and in demand and well paid.

Personally I don't want to go into A&E and be seen by a doctor who has spent 36 hours on call and hasn't slept in two days and has twice as many cases as he should have. That's not in anyone's best interest - except the consultants who have less people competing for the top jobs and the overtime salaries which are much higher. Also the consultants feel 'well, I had to go through all this - I got put through the wringer - so why should I make it easier on people coming through now?'

Interestingly since last year junior doctors are not working those 2/3 day shifts any more. The HSE has had to massively curtail overtime. So they are on call much less frequently - only about half as much I think. So I feel better about going in to A&E because there is much less chance the doctor is half-crazy from lack of sleep - but only a little bit - because while they are working less they haven't hired more people to pick up the slack so services are reduced and they have many more cases to deal with in less time.

Train more doctors says I. Let the prestige go down a bit. Let the salaries go down a bit.

Dr Galen

is this turning into another Man Vs Woman thread?

Seriously, there have been enough of them around here recently. Debate your points, debate them well. Please don't start building strawmen or posting to deliberately rile others up.

This IS the Gentlemans Club, and yes it's function is to see things from the modern mans POV, but, thats not to the detriment of opposing voices or to allow for ranting. That said, please bear in mind that as much as the the Ladies Lounge is the safe place for women here on boards.ie (and rightly so

), this forum serves a similar purpose for blokes. So civility and seeing the other sides views, without putting them down is also required.

I suppose what I'm saying is:

Gents..........act like Gents
Ladies.........act like Ladies

CDfm

Thaedydal wrote: »

You really think that the money spent on the care and treatment of all rape victims regardless of gender should be split to provide a gendered service with while be lesser and have less resources?

The rape crises center has been hostile against rapists and rape culture and rightly so and more men should also be that way.

I do really believe that and while I dont think its ideal I feel that men or boys would find it difficult to come forward to a womens group.I have real problems with it -especially if the perpetrator is a woman. You are asking an orgabisation and individuals working there to change their fundamental values and beliefs. I dont think they can.

PopUp

Sorry Mystik - yikes, four big posts in a row! I am getting very ranty.

Sorry if I have contributed to taking discussion away from gent's issues at all.

Nevyn

CDfm wrote: »

I do really believe that and while I dont think its ideal I feel that men or boys would find it difficult to come forward to a womens group.I have real problems with it -especially if the perpetrator is a woman. You are asking an orgabisation and individuals working there to change their fundamental values and beliefs. I dont think they can.

It that is your perception, opinion and prejudice then so be it,
it hasn't been my experience or that of any male which I know who availed of the services there.
So I have no idea what you seem to think "their fundamental values and beliefs" are.

CDfm

Thaedydal wrote: »

It that is your perception, opinion and prejudice then so be it,
it hasn't been my experience or that of any male which I know who availed of the services there.
So I have no idea what you seem to think "their fundamental values and beliefs" are.

Lets leave that one for another day

Nevyn

Oh I am quiet happy to leave the entire thread for another day if not decade,
I was pleased to read it and see the discussions unflold until it went down the route of
if any feminists were invovled then it's antiman and evil.

CDfm

Ah go-ahead. That bit is just my opinion.;)

I would like to see what you have to say.

its a way of topic.

Nevyn

The same way it is not right for women to blame men for all the ills and inequality in society it is not right for men to try and blame their ills and inequalities on 'Feminists'.

As Crinnie pointed out early why aren't men campaigning on their issues?
For me as a person who believes in empowerment I can't do that for men, I will support them doing for themselves and be grateful for the changes which will occur which will benefit me and my children both my son and my daughter, but it is not for me to do it for them.

There was a paternity leave action group set up in parenting, it died, there wasn't the will and the want to make it happen. Is it lack of awareness? As many Father's to be only find out when the baby is on it's way that they have no legal statuary paternity leave. Ironically enough they have the right to 2 days paid leave for prenatal class.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/birth-family-relationships/before-your-baby-is-born/antenatal_classes
But where are the lobby groups? Where are the petitions? Where are the men hassling thier T.D.s to make this on the governments agenda?

metrovelvet

cdfm, it would be a breath of fresh air if you changed the record. There are two doctors in my local health center,a man and a woman. You know who is always absent? The man. His wife is dying. Honestly, I think you dont like women and you use amen and the like to posture some civic mindedness.

CDfm

All I am saying is that there are a lot of Womens groups that are very anti-men. Pick up any domestic violence leaflet and you see it.

I just happen to believe the gender discrimination promoted by these groups especially in areas such as abuse is wrong. They come across in the same way Sinn Fein does. Support them if you want too.

That doesnt make me anti-woman.

I also think such groups do a disservice to society.

As someone who is qualified and has worked as an economist I will have some views which have an economic rationale and that other small open economies like ours use to be more economically competitive.

Just because I dont agree with a particular view of the world does not make me anti women etc

I think a misogynist is something a real feminist would be if she were a man

And I have a guy sense of humour about the whole thing too.

Nevyn

CDfm wrote: »

I think a misogynist is something a real feminist would be if she were a man

I find that pretty insulting tbh, Again your prejudices are showing.
/waits for the 'joke' about her not having a sense of humour :rolleyes:

Is it lack of awareness that has men not looking to correct the injustices and imbalances? Why is it that so few of them are willing to educate (starting with themselves), inform, agitate and advocate on such issues?

trout

I'm temp-locking this thread until I can read over it and form an opinion.

First glance: this thread appears to have gone off topic, and down a familiar rabbit hole.

Once I've read the posts, I'll consult with the other mods and post back with an update. This might take a while.

In the meantime, let's all calm down and play nice.

trout

Update.

Consensus view of the mods is to leave this thread locked.

This is a shame, it started out as an interesting thread until it was derailed.

The charter will be updated in the coming days to cover soapboxing / staying on topic. From this point forward, there will be no tolerance for soapboxing.