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Skoda Superb, wow.

Stevie Dakota

Put aside how it looks for a minute, I couldn't believe the spec on the Elagance, wanting for nothing at under €29K. That's unbelievable, now to find a way...

http://new.skoda-auto.com/IRL/Documents/New_Superb/Superb%20Price%20Spec.pdf

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Matt Simis

flamegrill wrote: »

Can I just clarify something? You would dig into your pocket and extract an extra 10-15k euro just go get the 4 rings on the front? That's what you're saying ... Audi's don't turn heads. They're boring in the lower range. Save the R8 and new A8. And even the new A8 looks like a bigger Audi A4.

I think the Superb is nice (*cough* as an estate), but come on, lets not delude ourselves that the only technical thing separating Audi and Skoda is a badge on the front.
Audi's have better interiors (not just looking, they have more toys and physically) and most importantly (is this a car forum?) better chassis and much better engine choices (and the cream of the VAG crop engines).
Unless you are the "lets buy a FWD A4 customer", I dont subscribe.

The new A8 is a disappointment however. Audi are the purveyors of S and RS cars too. Plus the TT (marmite it or not, its a stylistic car). The rest of the line up could be described as fairly soft (aforementioned plebs choice A4 2.0 FWD) to under stated performance (a decked out A4 3.0TDI Quattro).

I was in an Octavia (2008 model) for the first time 3wks ago. The owners big gripe with it is "every taxi seems to have one". He previously described our daily driver (2000 E39 530i) as a "clapped out banger". After I got into the Octavia that statement became a source of amusment and frustration... its horrendous (not just "feeling", physical construction) inside. Its like what I imagine Chinese cars to look like. I dunno what engine is in it, but it was woefully slow and sounded dire too.

Now I understand the Superb is different, but lets call a spade a spade, Audi/VW are not morons, Skodas are on no level "just as good". You get what you pay for.

colm_mcm

Matt Simis wrote: »

Unless you are the "lets buy a FWD A4 customer", I dont subscribe.

At a guess, 90% of Audi saloons in this country are FWD.

Matt Simis

colm_mcm wrote: »

At a guess, 90% of Audi saloons in this country are FWD.

Absolutely agree but its irrelevant.
I dont hold Audi responsible for the retarded buying choices of our countrymen and neither should anyone else. They make some great cars, most people want cheap cars, but doesnt diminish their ability nor in anyway make competitor BrandX seem better or worse.

colm_mcm

Essentially, Audi is selling out and diluting it's brand in search of volume sales (which is what the Passat and the Superb and are supposed to be for)

Victor_M

Is the Chassis on a superb not just a 1 Gen old VAG chassis? THIS interior is as nice as any Audi and nicer than most Audi's I've ever been in. The few superbs I've seen so far seem to be well decked out, with the owners using the money saved from boggo spec A4's to spec up the interiors nicely.

A 1.4 plastic spec Octavia, is a slightly worse place to sit than a 1.6 plastic spec A4 granted, but the basic trim that the Superb comes with will mean even the cheapest model is streets ahead of the Passats & A4's in terms of spec and interior layout. That's before you get to the way superior legroom.

Matt is it not (on a cheaper level obviously) a similar comparison to the Phaeton you used to own, a stunning beautifully built super saloon with only the VW badge going against it (i mean that from a person buying it new perspective, made for a great 2nd hand buy for you). It was a Bentley continental in a cheaper suit, but still a car that was better than 95% of the cars on the road.

I'm really tempted to go the loaded with toys Superb vs the 05 520d mid spec route as my next sensible baby carrier.

Matt Simis

colm_mcm wrote: »

Essentially, Audi is selling out and diluting it's brand in search of volume sales (which is what the Passat and the Superb and are supposed to be for)

Well thats one way of interpreting the figures (which were a guestimate to begin with). In a business sense, its poor practice to try to "tell" your customer what they want. I see them just doing the business thing for their shareholders, you know, making money. They arent a pop group or a charity, they have to do what it takes.

Besides, since when is what they do in Ireland representative of what they do as a global company?

colm_mcm

But what we're talking about is perception of a brand. If you buy a car in Ireland then the only people you have to impress are the Irish. How can a country be in awe of a brand that in this country consists mostly of 100bhp 8 valve 1.6 petrols and smoky 1.9 TDIS (with or without RS4 kits)

If every A4 or A6 out there is shoite spec, then that reflects on the one you drive be it top spec or entry level.

flamegrill

Victor_M wrote: »

Is the Chassis on a superb not just a 1 Gen old VAG chassis? THIS interior is as nice as any Audi and nicer than most Audi's I've ever been in. The few superbs I've seen so far seem to be well decked out, with the owners using the money saved from boggo spec A4's to spec up the interiors nicely.

A 1.4 plastic spec Octavia, is a slightly worse place to sit than a 1.6 plastic spec A4 granted, but the basic trim that the Superb comes with will mean even the cheapest model is streets ahead of the Passats & A4's in terms of spec and interior layout. That's before you get to the way superior legroom.

Matt is it not (on a cheaper level obviously) a similar comparison to the Phaeton you used to own, a stunning beautifully built super saloon with only the VW badge going against it (i mean that from a person buying it new perspective, made for a great 2nd hand buy for you). It was a Bentley continental in a cheaper suit, but still a car that was better than 95% of the cars on the road.

I'm really tempted to go the loaded with toys Superb vs the 05 520d mid spec route as my next sensible baby carrier.

The superb sits ontop of a stretched out Passat B5 (1 gen old as you said) chassis!

it's extremely well kitted out, far better than any Audi I've been in. Either test drove or on the forecourt!

Paul

Matt Simis

Victor_M wrote: »

Is the Chassis on a superb not just a 1 Gen old VAG chassis? THIS interior is as nice as any Audi and nicer than most Audi's I've ever been in.

That is very nice indeed, are they like that in reality? I wouldnt say better than a mid-range Audi, but absolutely no worse.

Matt is it not (on a cheaper level obviously) a similar comparison to the Phaeton you used to own, a stunning beautifully built super saloon with only the VW badge going against it

I'm really tempted to go the loaded with toys Superb vs the 05 520d mid spec route as my next sensible baby carrier.

Lol, the amount of times thats thrown back at me! Yes, the concept is similar. The difference however is the Phaeton was the platform and chassis (and the factory and the assembly workers) the Flying Spur was based on. The Superb is presumably, as you stated, some obsolete repurposed VAG chassis. To get the "best" one you need to buy something else from VAG. There is also the matter that the Phaeton was VWs flagship and had its own world leading engines, the Superb is VWs attempt to upmarket Skoda and increase their ASP.

I would love however to pick up a 3.6 AWD estate Superb for a song in a few years, it will be very hard to compete with pricewise 2nd hand. With the glass roof of course!

colm_mcm wrote: »

But what we're talking about is perception of a brand. If you buy a car in Ireland then the only people you have to impress are the Irish. How can a country be in awe of a brand that in this country consists mostly of 100bhp 8 valve 1.6 petrols and smoky 1.9 TDIS (with or without RS4 kits)
If every A4 or A6 out there is shoite spec, then that reflects on the one you drive be it top spec or entry level.

Im not talking about perception at all. I could care less. What Im disputing is the suggestion that Audi VW and Skoda cars are poured from the same jug. They are not built the same, from the same parts or with the same portfolio of parts. This is a fact that people are glossing over due to their resentment of other VAG products and the champion the little guy mentality.
Also "every A4/A6" being bottom spec is grossly inaccurate. With the new Tax system Ive seen plenty of 3.0TDIs and well spec'ed models, plus A8s and TTs which dont really have crap specs. Regardless, I dont get your point, we should dislike Audi as there is a perception people buy the cheapest models here? I just dont get it, I like some of them for technical merit. If Mary and Tom down the road buy a boggo spec, it doesnt undermine my (hypothetical car, dont have an Audi) cars technical excellence. It would seem you are more affected by perception and badge "awareness" than most.

flamegrill wrote: »

The superb sits ontop of a stretched out Passat B5 (1 gen old as you said) chassis!
it's extremely well kitted out, far better than any Audi I've been in. Either test drove or on the forecourt!
Paul

Um... I had a B5 Chassis Vag (Audi S4) car, it was made in 1998...
Current platform is B8.

Victor_M

THIS is taken from the Skoda Ireland website, and the LCD screen comes standard on the elegance model so it is a standard high spec interior, not just some press shot of a car with 30K worth of extras.

It's not like any of the current range of VAG products other that the Flagships, GTI's, S/RS, 3.0TDi's etc are the last word in driving dynamics (same goes for BMW and MERC too), and I haven't driven a superb yet, but for all intents and purposes, with the exception of the tax band (as they are older VAG engines they miss out slightly on the €156 PA tax bracket and fall into the €300 odd tax band) I doubt the subtle differences in handling, chassis stiffness and weight distribution will be appreciated by the average Irish driver.

colm_mcm

Matt Simis wrote: »

Im not talking about perception at all. I could care less. What Im disputing is the suggestion that Audi VW and Skoda cars are poured from the same jug.

Also "every A4/A6" being bottom spec is grossly inaccurate. With the new Tax system Ive seen plenty of 3.0TDIs and well spec'ed models, plus A8s and TTs which dont really have crap specs.

I wouldn't entertain the idea that Skodas and Audis are the same either, I simply think that a basic Audi isn't superior to a top spec Skoda just because that basic Audi is available with proper spec and engines.

Also re tax system, 08 and 09 cars only count for a small percentage of cars in Ireland, and for every person that bought a bigger engined Audi, 10 more got themselves a basic diesel one from the UK.

Most people in Ireland buy an Audi because of brand awareness and marketing.

flamegrill

The passat B5 is the prior chassi for the VW Passat than what I drive today which is the B6. The B6 chassis is what any passat upto today is on.

So the superb is 1Gen older than the Current. I drove a B5 passat for 3 years, it was a great car.

The interior in the new Superb is a mix of Vag parts. The glasses holder/lighting rig in the roof is taken directly from the new Passat. To say they don't share a parts bin is complete nonesense.

The Superb's engine is the same common rail 170PS engine you can get in any VAG. Again shared amoung them.

Paul

Kafer

Superb is based on the VAG PQ46 chassis which is also shared with the current Passat. Chassis design is modular that allows the Superb to have an extended wheelbase over the current Passat.

flamegrill

Kafer. I stand corrected.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group_A_platform has the full list of details. So it's one of the latest and greatest VAG chassis.

Matt Simis

flamegrill wrote: »

The passat B5 is the prior chassi for the VW Passat than what I drive today which is the B6. The B6 chassis is what any passat upto today is on.

So the superb is 1Gen older than the Current. I drove a B5 passat for 3 years, it was a great car.

The interior in the new Superb is a mix of Vag parts. The glasses holder/lighting rig in the roof is taken directly from the new Passat. To say they don't share a parts bin is complete nonesense.

The Superb's engine is the same common rail 170PS engine you can get in any VAG. Again shared amoung them.

Paul

Lets not confuse things. I like the Superb, I dont have an issue with brand perception. I liketo see people buying new cars.
But what I don't like is hyperbole and general inaccuracies purposely used to prove a point.

Parts
I never said they didnt share any parts, I said they dont share all parts nor even the best parts. There is a oversimplication that cars are like lego and your just follow a guide, one is an A4 and the other a Seat Leon. That is naive at best.

Chassis
I think you are massaging the figures here.
The current Passat is using the B6 PQ46 platform, which is to say its a long wheelbase Golf platform.
Audis use(d, its 2 gens obsolete) the B6 PL46 platform, which is what the B5 evolved to (the PQ46 is a different platform).

The fact you are hyping a platform introduced originally in 1996 as a "1 Gen old" is a bit of a stretch, thankfully for you the Superb is based on the LWB Golf platform.

Engines
Here are the line up of engines in the SuperbII (Wikipedia)

Petrol engines:
1.4 L I4 TSI (yes, 1.4 like a Polo, I $hit you not)
1.8 L I4 TSI
3.6 L VR6 FSI 4motion
Diesel engines:
1.9 L I4 TDI PD Greenline
2.0 L I4 TDI PD
2.0 L I4 TDI CR

Where is the 3.0TDI?! 1.4, 1.8 and 1.9TDI engines have no business in the SuperbII. If its an upmarket car, it needs an upmarket engine. The 3.6 petrol 4motion car sounds excellent (even if that engine is dropped from rest of VAG). But clearly the Superb has a poor engine range choice, the same car from Audi has newer engines and more options. All Im saying if its not a rebadged Audi X, its a Skoda thats aimed at improving their brand image and increasing ASP. Thats not a bad thing, thats just what it is.

colm_mcm

The A3 also uses the 1.4 TSI engine as does the Passat.

So it's not ok for Skoda to have a 122hp petrol engine in the Superb but the 100hp 1.6 8 valve in the A4 (a car which lets remember is supposed to be related to the R8 and TT) was good enough for the A4 until recently?

As you pointed out about Audi earlier, Skoda is also sold in other more important markets than here, there is obviously demand for small engines in other (closer to home) markets

Tea 1000

Lawson Rapping Chipmunk wrote: »

Cause you dont have to remove it all the time to stop it getting robbed, its neater, better looking, bigger screen usually, interrupts the radio and phone with instructions, Also an iphone is more flexible if that what your after.....

You don't have to remove it because you can't. They're pointless in this country, I've used my Garmin around 4 times in the last 3 years in this country, but I'd be lost without it every time I go abroad, it's invaluable. F**k all good your fancy looking Skoda one is when you're in Italy and the Superb is in the long term! I have an iPhone too, and that wouldn't replcae the Garmin either, don't like the Navigon system or the poor reception of the GPS when it's not using the network to assist it.
As I said, if the car has it then good, it's a nice to have. But you'd want the noggin examined to pay extra to have it. I think Audi were charging over €1500 to add one to an A4 a couple of years ago. What moran would pay that?
That's the problem with Irish buyers. Everyone wants buttons and "features". I'd happily pay extra for an engine and/or drivetrain upgrade over a few extra buttons, but the majority of Irish judge a car by two things - size and number of buttons. (that's after badge of course!

)

Victor_M

What could the 170 Bhp diesel engine be remapped to? Any idea how much the leather is as an extra, no mention on the website.

the 170 DSG elegance with leather and sunroof would be a very nice place to sit.

R.O.R

colm_mcm wrote: »

The A3 also uses the 1.4 TSI engine as does the Passat.

So it's not ok for Skoda to have a 122hp petrol engine in the Superb but the 100hp 1.6 8 valve in the A4 (a car which lets remember is supposed to be related to the R8 and TT) was good enough for the A4 until recently?

As you pointed out about Audi earlier, Skoda is also sold in other more important markets than here, there is obviously demand for small engines in other (closer to home) markets

Don't forget colm, Audi now offer the A4 with a 1.8T engine producing 120bhp (so less than the 1.4 in the Superb).

How they've managed to produce a 1.8 engine, with a turbo, and keep it down to 120bhp, is beyond me.

mike65

Did anyone mention its got a big boot?

R.O.R

Victor_M wrote: »

What could the 170 Bhp diesel engine be remapped to? Any idea how much the leather is as an extra, no mention on the website.

the 170 DSG elegance with leather and sunroof would be a very nice place to sit.

Don't know about remapping, but I'd say 200-210 (same engine gets those results in the Octy RS).

Leather is standard on the Elegance, €1,764 + €450 for heated seats on the Ambition (1.9), but isn't listed for the Comfort or Greenline.

Could have it retro fitted for less than €2,000 - which is what we did for an Ambition model last year.

Tea 1000

Matt Simis wrote: »

Where is the 3.0TDI?!

Not there and not likely to be due to the transverse layout in the Superb, and in-line in the Audi's.

Victor_M wrote:

Any idea how much the leather is as an extra, no mention on the website.

It must be standard, apparently it has better spec than the Insignia Elite, which does have leather as standard, so I'd assume the Superb Elegance must.

Matt Simis

colm_mcm wrote: »

The A3 also uses the 1.4 TSI engine as does the Passat.
So it's not ok for Skoda to have a 122hp petrol engine in the Superb but the 100hp 1.6 8 valve in the A4 (a car which lets remember is supposed to be related to the R8 and TT) was good enough for the A4 until recently?
As you pointed out about Audi earlier, Skoda is also sold in other more important markets than here, there is obviously demand for small engines in other (closer to home) markets

The A3 is a small hatch back. I wouldnt be extolling its virtues, certainly not an over-priced under-spec'ed 1.4 model. However the A3, run of the mill, bottom of line up vs the pinnacle of Skoda's line up (and part of their new image) and they share the same weak and cheap engine? Its not ok to put it in a Passat either. Its even more "not ok" to put in a Superb, but goes to show a somewhat convolted view of the product within VAG.
You seem to be proving my point!?

How is the A4 related (technically meaningful way) to the TT and how are they both related to the R8? Ive never even alluded to something so absurd. 1.6 in an A4.. also rubbish (and IRC years ago), dont care though, nothing to do with my point.
Making a case that some other car has a crap engine so its ok that a top of the line cruiser has it too.. is weak. Its crap, the Superb isnt meant to be a crappy poverty spec car, therefore it weakens its image to range it. So does the 1.9TDI variant (its as old as the hills).

I dont even know what the argument is about, your case seems to be trying to undermine Audi at every possible venture, mine is that Skoda are not simply rebadged Audis but have their own merits.
Your argument seems to be portable and you could go on this crusade on any vaguely VAG related thread, nice for you and all, but why? What is your end point here? We get it, you dont like Audi's. I dont like most of them either. That doesnt raise Skoda to some higher level though.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Tea 1000 wrote: »

You don't have to remove it because you can't. They're pointless in this country,

Exactly cant be stolen unless they want the entire car:rolleyes: I use mine a lot on trips or finding addresses, businesses, hotels, petrol stations etc. I usually just rent a sat nav if I am on holidays from the rental car people, also http://iphone.tomtom.com/ is excellent and much cheaper than a dedicated unit. I agree engine before gadgets, however I would go for integrated sat nav any day over a aftermarket one. And they are becoming fairly standard equipment just like integrated phone kits rather than aftermarket ones.

Tea 1000

Lawson Rapping Chipmunk wrote: »

Exactly cant be stolen unless they want the entire car:rolleyes:

It's hardly a chore to hide your portable one!

colm_mcm

Matt Simis wrote: »

The A3 is a small hatch back. I wouldnt be extolling its virtues, certainly not an over-priced under-spec'ed 1.4 model. However the A3, run of the mill, bottom of line up vs the pinnacle of Skoda's line up (and part of their new image) and they share the same weak and cheap engine? Its not ok to put it in a Passat either. Its even more "not ok" to put in a Superb, but goes to show a somewhat convolted view of the product within VAG.
You seem to be proving my point!?

I think it's bizzare that big cars have this turbocharged small when a normally aspirated slightly bigger engine could do the same job. You made the point earlier that the 1.6 or 1.9 versions of the A4 aren't representitive of the car.
I think it's a shocking engine, I drove a Passat Comfortline with one and couldn't figure out who it would appeal to. Skoda have an extremely small product range and the Superb is only the "pinnacle" of their lineup by default

Matt Simis wrote: »

How is the A4 related (technically meaningful way) to the TT and how are they both related to the R8?

I thought the whole thrust of your argument for Audi was their higher spec models, surely the halo effect is what sells the basic ones. (thought you had mentioned the R8, turns out you didn't)

Matt Simis wrote: »

Ive never even alluded to something so absurd. 1.6 in an A4.. also rubbish (and IRC years ago), dont care though, nothing to do with my point.
Making a case that some other car has a crap engine so its ok that a top of the line cruiser has it too.. is weak. Its crap, the Superb isnt meant to be a crappy poverty spec car, therefore it weakens its image to range it. So does the 1.9TDI variant (its as old as the hills).

You're absolutely right but I don't think bringing up the fact that they offer a 1.4 is much of an argument against the actual car if you still can respect a high spec A4 that's also offered with low powered engines.

Matt Simis wrote: »

I dont even know what the argument is about, your case seems to be trying to undermine Audi at every possible venture, mine is that Skoda are not simply rebadged Audis but have their own merits.
Your argument seems to be portable and you could go on this crusade on any vaguely VAG related thread, nice for you and all, but why? What is your end point here? We get it, you dont like Audi's. I dont like most of them either. That doesnt raise Skoda to some higher level though.

I don't dislike Audis (I love the TT and all the S and RS models) but I'm disillusioned by people's opinions that "Irish" Audis are in any way good. I also don't like the way VW deliberately held back on the styling of the Superb so as not to tempt buyers from their other products.
The comparison between a Superb and a high spec A6 isn't fair, but a comparison between what Skoda do for €30k and what Audi do for €40k has to be fair.
Ask most people the difference between an A4 and a Superb and most will bring up styling and interior plastics, both dirt cheap to rectify in the design stages if they actually wanted to)

EPM

I'm driving a rental 1.4tsi passat at the moment and all I'll say is don't knock it until you try it. It's suprisingly peppy and for what is an entry level engine is more than adequate. AFAIK the 1.9 tdi is to be phased out shortly...think I read somewhere the 1.6 cr tdi might be going in

VolvoMan

R.O.R wrote: »

Don't know about remapping, but I'd say 200-210 (same engine gets those results in the Octy RS).

And what would that become then, a TDI or would it just remain TDI?

Berty

EPM wrote: »

I'm driving a rental 1.4tsi passat at the moment and all I'll say is don't knock it until you try it. It's suprisingly peppy and for what is an entry level engine is more than adequate. AFAIK the 1.9 tdi is to be phased out shortly...think I read somewhere the 1.6 cr tdi might be going in

Pah. Im driving a rental 09 2.0 Petrol Passat and its missing a turbo so making it not exactly peppy.

I drove the 1.6 Passat a few weeks back and was very underwhelmed by it.

Now, should I be somebody looking to simply pay cheap tax and get places rather than getting there with power then I might consider it.

junkyard

Wow.........nine pages about a Skoda!! You guys need to get out more.:pac: